A Race of Thought-Dancers

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« on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:07 pm »
Quote from: Madness
"The difficulty lay in the sheer audacity of what the Wizard alleged about the Aspect-Emperor: the idea of a man so quick, so cunning, that he, Malowebi, among the foremost sorcerers of his age ... was nothing but a child in comparison. In all of the Kuburu, the accumulated legends of Zeum, the hero's exalted trait was always strength, skill, or passion - never intellect ... Never a miraculously penetrating thinker, one who used truth as his primary instrument of deception.

Why should the notion of a Thought-dancer rest so uneasy in the souls of Men?

...

This is what rendered them blind to a being such as Anasurimbor Kellhus, one who could play on innumerable strands of thought and weave that agreement into designs of his making.

...

Was he inhuman in a more mundane sense, the harbinger of a new race, the Dunyain, dreadful for the symmetry between their strength and human frailty...

A race of perfect manipulators. Thought-dancers." (p590 - 591, WLW)

One of the more important passages in WLW in my opinion. I have a number of others bookmarked that I might share.

It invokes the idea of the Face-dancers of Herbert's Dune, clear analogies of Bakker's Skin-Spies, minions of the Bene Tleilax, who, with the Ixians, seem analogous of the Inchoroi.

Perhaps, within Zeumi culture a hero of whichever degree is referred to by the suffix dancer - such as Zeumi Sword-dancer. We know from Zsoronga's perspective that Zeumi ancestral lists are social and only include the greatest actions.

Where might Bakker be going with this idea? What might it mean for the World if the Dunyain were not killed but instead simply cast out of Ishual, seeping into the World from their broken shell?

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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:15 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Depends if there's a bunch of dudes with their dogs to go and save their frozen asses...hehe.

Not sure why Kellhus would cast them out rather than contain or eliminate the rather high variables that are other Dunyain - I think what it would mean for the world would largely have to do with why he would do that.

But it's a new idea - presumably he'd have split Ishual in twain and indicated he'd just keep doing that (no rebuilding possible).

Presumably you'd have a bunch of individuals who are extremely good at effecting their own agenda onto masses of world born, but without much self reflection about their own failings (presumably the zealous pursuit of the self moving soul overrides any much self reflection in that regard).

Presumably the errors would be magnificently huge, the broadened intellect allowed far larger fuck ups than any world born could typically manage.

I wonder why Kellhus apparently went mad? Did he just see his own error, already made and absolute?

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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:22 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
First I'd like to put in that I think its unlikely Kell sent a bunch of Dunyain out into the world. If you recall big Moe and Kell had something of a misunderstanding, and indeed everyone who has 'grasped' TTT seems to have a slightly different opinion of what it means.

That aside, say the Consult or something tried to kill them, I feel like a contingent of Dunyain could have easily evaded any assault, so it is possible they are wandering the countryside.

This would create an unprecedented level mystery. Its likely they would all go mad by trying to control their own circumstance, and end up splitting into 2 factions. 1 that either agreed with Kell or thought that Kell in power was the best way to achieve a self moving soul, and 1 that was bent on destroying him as he represents something they cannot control and therefore someone that is controlling them.

Either way they would find their way into the army of the Ordeal. Superhuman soldiers amongst the mundane men of the Ordeal. They would certainly be unconquerable in the field, which regardless of whether or not they wanted to help Kell, they would have to fight, so this would be a great benefit. However it would come at a cost, for there would be impossibly stealthy and impeccably well hidden assassins everywhere.

Another possibility is Kell captured many Dunyain and did some kind of brainwashing or Compulsion Cants (or a severe combination of both) in order to have some more brain power on his side. Like I said, I think there would be a split of some kind amongst the Dunyain, and Kell could use the willing to further his goals intellectually, and the unwilling he could force to fight for him.

If big Moe could force some skin-spys to talk, I'm sure Kell could find something to do with the Dunyain than make a bunch of corpses.

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« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:30 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
to be honest, i thought that the dunyain ritually killed themselves when AK set out in the PoN prologue, as the survivor who will write the conclusion.

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« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:37 pm »
Quote from: Mog Kellhus
Only the Dunyain who got in contact with Moe commited suicide we do not know the fate of the rest yet, although it seems likely they are all dead.

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:45 pm »
Quote from: thirdeye
I am still not entirely sold on the idea that Kellhus actually went mad.  Has Scott ever confirmed this in any interviews or blogs?  I don't remember reading anywhere where he confirms that Kellhus has indeed went mad.  I always thought that the madness Moenghus mentions was simply his perception.  At no point have I ever thought that Kellhus actually believes he has become a God.  He seized on the opportunity to utilize religious zeal to further his own cause, namely consolidating enough power to take on the Consult.  That is not to say Kellhus is the "good guy" in this, as the Second Apocalypse has never struck me as that kind of examination.  There are no real good guys vs. bad guys in this story, which is one of the primary reasons I enjoy it so much.  The Dunyain are just as cruel as the Consult and seek to control and manipulate, abliet through different methods.  Their primary difference seems to be one of purpose.  Earwa is a world of gray, which more accurately reflects reality.  Good people do bad things, and vice versa.

I wonder when we are going to get some significant insight into how the Duynain came about.  Where did they come from?  We know a fair amount about the conflict between the Nonmen and the Inchoroi.  How long have the Dunyain been present on Earwa?  Did they come about as a result of a fracture or splintering of a group or have they possibly always been there in a different form?  There are elements of both Nonmen and Inchoroi philosphy present within Dunyain ideology.

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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:52 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
There has been some significant discussion on whether or not Kell is mad, I think on TTT forum under Moe. is a lying liar who lies, or something along those lines.  In any case, I believe the main evidence for this is that it is stated in the "What has come before" sections that Kell arrived at big Moe's house insane. There has been subsequent discussion on whether or not these sections are to be trusted elsewhere, or maybe in that same forum I cant remember.
But IMO, I think Kell was more or less sane, and Moe precieved him as mad because his conclusion of TTT was vastly different than his own.

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 11:22:59 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
I think the recap at the start of WLW says he went mad quite explicitly.

Quote
What he did not know, could not know, was that Kellhus would see further than he had, think beyond this Thousandfold Thought...

And go mad.

* If anyone wants to suggest I spoiler tag this, feel free. I'm open to the suggestion even though currently I lean toward thinking it's not warranted.

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:07 pm »
Quote from: thirdeye
Quote from: Callan S.
I think the recap at the start of WLW says he went mad quite explicitly.

Quote
What he did not know, could not know, was that Kellhus would see further than he had, think beyond this Thousandfold Thought...

And go mad.

* If anyone wants to suggest I spoiler tag this, feel free. I'm open to the suggestion even though currently I lean toward thinking it's not warranted.

Ah you are indeed correct I completely forgot about that recap.  Remember now at that time seeing that but not really paying much attention to it, sort of glossed over the recap and figured it was being presented in a certain context rather than a definitive statement by Bakker that Kellhus had indeed lost his mind.  In fact at no point in any of the books have I felt that Kellhus was not fully sane.  The usage of the word mad just doesn't seem accurate with the picture Bakker has painted.  None the less, it is in the recap, and that means according to Bakker, Kellhus is mad by some definition.  Can't argue with the author.

I suppose Bakker intended on Drusas and Esmi being the main sympathetic characters but he wrote Kellhus so well that it kind of backfired.  I could care less what happens to Drusas or Esmi.  I want Kellhus to achieve his ultimate goal, whatever that might be.  I hope he does not end up throwing Kellhus completely under the bus, so to speak.  I know Scott is focused on exaniming philosophical concepts within the framework of an epic fantasy, and so I imagine it can get easy for him to forget that for all the beautiful prose and philosphical analysis, SA at it's core is a still a work of fantasy.  All the world building and analysis is for not if the story gets lost.  Whether or not it was intended, Kellhus has become a sympathetic character for many and the idea that Kellhus may end up nothing more than a mad demigod does not appeal to me personally and I imagine won't sit well with many fans of the series.  That being said, no author should write to appease the fans.  Regardless of which direction Scott goes I am sure it will be one hell of a ride.  I might grumble and complain if things turn out badly for Kellhus but it won't stop me from buying the next installement after The Unholy Consult.

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:15 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Personally I recall the bit in TTT before he goes off to have a chat with dad, where he's basically seeing alot of visions and...yup, I didn't see it as mad at the time. I have to wonder if that says something about me! I'll say in my defence, when dudes walk the sky and can make etherial dragons appear and spit fire by singing a bit, in that kind of setting seeing things a bit weirdly doesn't strike me as mad.

Thirdeye, What difference would you place on sane Vs mad?

Also what's your forum avatar a picture of?

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:22 pm »
Quote from: jogrady
Quote from: Callan S.
Also what's your forum avatar a picture of?

Tool cover art

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:28 pm »
Quote from: sologdin
Quote
What he did not know, could not know, was that Kellhus would see further than he had, think beyond this Thousandfold Thought...

And go mad.

heh.  that's hardly unequivocal, though, right?  the positive content of the statement is that M could not and did not know [fact].  the question becomes whether [fact] is presented as something that has happened and M is just a dummy, or that M's not knowing [fact] is understandable because things subjunctive [facts] are non-existent and not knowable by anyone.

the WHCB sections are manifestly unreliable otherwise:

Quote
His New Empire spans the entirety of the Three Seas [...] It was easily the equal of the old Ceneian Empire in terms of geographical extent, and likely far greater when it came to population.
(IV, "WHCB") (emphasis added).  the highlighted adjectives indicate that this is not an omniscient presentation at all.  it is just another in-settign perspective, like III's encyclopedic glossary.

other items suggest that the WHCB may be entirely worthless, as they contradict things we already know:

Quote
Driven by nightmares, they wandered the labyrinths of power, scouring the Three Seas for signs of their ancient and implacable foe--for the Consult. 

And as always, they found nothing.
(IV, "WHCB").

but cf. remarks from DA otherwise that the mandate hadn't seen the consult for 300 years (I.1 at 52).

perhaps other inconsistencies and incredibilities might be drawn out later.

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:35 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
I dont believe that third quote can be called false based on the context provided. I recall reading that, but what time frame is being considered for that quote? I thought it was referring explicitly to the 300 years of no contact. Which, during those years, they indeed found nothing.
Remember that the memories of men are short, and "always" is not much of an indicator of how long it had been. Unless there are hard numbers in or around that passage (if its a glossary entry there might be a date), I don't see that quote as evidence supporting an unreliable WHCB section.

Though with the rest of your argument, I agree. It would seem that Moe has influenced that particular passage, at least when I read it I felt like it was almost just a recap of his thoughts. opposed do a mandate by the author. It wasn't new or privliaged information, just a simple rehash of WHCB, as it came to us. Unfiltered and unchanged, which would preserve the bias of the individual who was judging Kell at the time.

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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:42 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Kellhus has the opposite effect on me. I find the mere fact of his existence so horrifying that I can actually conscience the Consult winning if it means no more Dunyain; and I have sympathy for Esmenet and Akka and find their arc tragic. Although this represents a reversal of the first feelings I had. Throughout the first book my opinions were much closer to your own.

I also think that Kellhus did in fact go mad. He was losing objectivity well before Caraskand, and I think the circumfixion broke him.

In the interest of fairness though, I would point out that:

1. The "What Has Come Before" section has been pointed out as suspect in the past.

and

2. Just because Kellhus is mad doesn't mean that whatever he grasped beyond the Thousand Fold Thought isn't 100% correct. You can be irrational and insane and still completely right about any given point.

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« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 11:23:50 pm »
Quote from: thirdeye
Not even gong to bother debating the "mad" issue at this point.  It really doesn't matter to me.  I am pulling for Kellhus.  Couldn't care less if he is completely sane or not.  I enjoy watching him dominate and manipulate.  He IS stronger, faster, smarter and is the only being on Earwa capable of taking on the No-God if it comes down to it.  Akka is a whining little bitch and Esmi would still be nothing but a cheap whore if not for Kellhus.  I don't care how crazy her children are she just needs to do what Kellhus tells her to do without question or hesitation.

^..... Does that come across as insensitive and cruel?  Probably.  Don't care.  This is not real life.  It is speculative fiction.  I read it because it is fun and the story is great.  The world building and prose are both exceptional.  The philosophy is interesting, but at the end of the day Bakker is not going to teach me anything I don't already know.  The fact that Bakker uses SA to explore philosophical conepts certainly adds something to the story but the reader is not required to experience the story exactly the way Bakker might intend.

Does that mean that I somehow do not value women or make me less a person because I don't sympathize with the little guy (Akka)?  Of course not.  I love this story but it is just that, a fantasy story.  It is a wild, crazy ride way down the rabbit hole.  It is Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas meets Lord of the RIngs meets Dune.  If Kellhus is "supposed" to be the "bad guy" so be it.  I am pulling for the bad guy.

Team Kellhus!