The Second Apocalypse

General => News/Announcements => Topic started by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 04:05:38 pm

Title: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on July 26, 2017, 04:05:38 pm
To maximize engagement and minimize the inevitable friction between individuals, I've created this thread to establish a place where we might discuss, at length, the interactions between us.

Your posts might be moved here, or quoted in part or in full, in order for us to further understand what broke down in our social discourse, and how we might fix it - or at least not make the same mistake next time. All this, without disrupting the normal flow of conversation in a topic.

Please, feel free to post here if you disagree with how things are being moderated, or if you'd like to otherwise talk about any specific instances related to this community at large that isn't being addressed.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on July 27, 2017, 11:36:55 am
Quoted in whole to continue the conversation as needed. Please feel free to continue this discussion here if you'd like.

Also, i hate when someone starts a thread, bitches and moans, doesnt give us enough info to know what their issue is, then doesnt participate anymore.

Feel Free not to post in this thread anymore. I get what your saying, but i have a job and limited spare time. I might be new here but let me tell you the sentiments, of what i will comfortably gamble , of the other users here - take you weak ass attitude somewhere else. Were all here to pour our passion into a book series we love, take a jog mate. Lay off the keyboard untill you, as have accused me,  have something to say.

So, what do we think. What went wrong here?
I'd like to point out that AFAIK, pretty much everyone here has a job and limited time. Do you feel this separates you from others here?
If you find the nature of MSJ's response abhorrent, why respond like in kind? Do you feel like you were justified, and even if so, isn't acting in such a way hypocritical?

Hopefully you don't feel singled out. Due to the increased volume of people recently, this is a new thread, and this happens to be the first instance I was able to capture and redirect.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Madness on July 27, 2017, 03:08:31 pm
I support and appreciate, #2.

If nothing else, we can all gain a greater appreciation of our shared communicative foibles 8).
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: MSJ on July 27, 2017, 05:38:44 pm
Edward Reynoylds, for one i never said hateful things too you. I simply said i hate when people pop in, say, "This or that sucks" and we never hear from them again. I was just wanting info on why you have these feeling, in order to discuss them with you. Sorry, brother. I know we all have busy schedules, just thought it was another one time poster with not much to offer, imo. It seems i offended you, was wrong and im very sorry about that. I hope you except my apology.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 04, 2017, 06:56:12 pm
Post moved to here at the request of the community:

>women
>reading philosophy

lol

Please avoid being intentionally or inadvertently incendiary.

If you have any questions, please let me know.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 10:26:23 pm
If women really don't read philosophy I'd say that's more a compliment than an insult to be honest.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Madness on August 04, 2017, 11:39:17 pm
A good many of my peers during my philosophy degree were women, a number of my professors were women, and a number of my female peers have earned their PhDs in the interim between then and now...

And the majority of my psychology peers were women by a large margin...
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: The Sharmat on August 04, 2017, 11:55:34 pm
No good layabouts the lot of them, then!
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Kellais on August 07, 2017, 12:32:14 pm
If women really don't read philosophy I'd say that's more a compliment than an insult to be honest.

lol...say what now? Are you serious? If so, why is that a compliment?

I hope that's ok here...i mean it's not something that was moved here or anything but reading the thread, this jumped out at me. And i'd like more info ;)

Also, if i may, MSJ - I get your sentiment (reaction to Edward), but 1) i think it was unnecessarily passive agressive AND ... to be honest...nobody "owes" you an indepth explanation why they hate or don't like something. Sometimes people just want to vent and get some "yeah, me too!!", you know.
Also, if you really want people to get you your explanations, do you really think that the way you phrased it is the way to go? I am pretty sure a more friendly and constructive "inquiry" would have had more chance of engaging Edward.

Anyway...not trying to be the wise-ass here...just my 2 cents to the communications at hand.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Thing called Sarcellus on August 16, 2017, 02:26:40 am
I'm not sure if I understand the nature of this thread, but if it helps here's my 50 cents...

I have found, in my 20+ years of experience on the internet, that people need to understand that text is the second most primitive form of communication.  The lack of emotion is extremely limiting and someone can read whatever "tone" they subconsciously want into It, depending on their own mood at the time.

The difference between "fuck you man" and "fuck you man :)" is enormous.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 05:17:52 pm
Sometimes I'm serious, lol
I think both sides might be taking this too personally.

I apologise for my comment about cliques,it was just a joking response to the wording, i'm rarely serious and was also going to make a joke about how 9 out 13 of "us" made it (bakker's dozen).


Jokes on jokes ;)
9/13 is, in fact, pretty good, lol.

And I wasn't fishing for compliments - No kindness on the slog! (but much appreciated anyway)

And 4 responses in that amount of time is an insane amount of participation for us. Good enough for me: further discussion about how handsome and cool I am will be moved to the Building Better Communities thread.
Aw Wilshire, you are really handsome, cool and rich. A true Bakker fan if there ever was one!
Thanks Redeagl. I believe the same about you :D .
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 06:43:53 pm
Also, what prompted him to say that? Did someone ask about them first or did he simply say "no questions about halos" before the Q&A began?

Somewhere near the start of Friday Q/A somone asked a questions about something, Kellhus maybe?, and in the answers he tacked on "and no questions about halos" - that is my vague memory. Good thing I got recordings and we won't have to rely on my shit memory once we type it up.

-And no, I have no intention of posting the recordings. Some moments were not for the rest of you. Come to the next one ;) . Bakker the Younger will be posting plenty of stuff for you all eventually, and we'll be posting pictures. I've got a great one of him signing the Coffers :D .

Petty. Almost nauseatingly similar to jealous small-minded disciples hoarding their master's words for temporal power.  This author, future Zaudunyani cons and this work will not be served by secrecy of any kind.  Martin, Abercrombie and Rothfuss are most well served by fans shouting to the heaven's and across reddit anytime they get a chance to hear thoughts from their favorite scribe.

Get out of the way and spread the word.

Edit(s): Added the damage to future cons and grammar.
Oh, lol, sorry I missed this. Even if you are serious, you were invited the same as everyone else. Come 'next year' and do as you will.
And you're always welcome to make your own forum, develop your own relationships, forge your own community, make your own plans with Bakker, and hold your own fun gatherings. I'd imagine they'd be much better than the shit we've been able to pull together - let's be honest, Zaudunyanicon was a failure (really guys, 9 people?), so make a better one next year. I'd much rather go to one or watch the video than have to plan it.

Or stay here and wait for whatever scraps drop from 'jealous small-minded disciples' lol. As always, thanks for commenting, every bit helps spread the word :) .

I think there was a misunderstanding here that you (Wilshire) were withholding information because the rest of us couldn't or didn't go for whatever reason, therefore making us inferior and not worthy of knowing more about this world that we're all fans of. Were that the case I think Spooky's response is justified. Frankly the way you worded the original post made it seem like that, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was due to personal conversations being recorded or something of the like.

However, considering you're the person who seems to be the driving force behind trying to get everyone to play nice on this board, I think you're a bit out of line here. Telling people to "come next year" like it's as simple as wanting to go (while in the same breath implying that it's justification for us not deserving to learn the same things you guys did) is arrogant and pretty out-of-touch with reality, IMO. Of course, no one who went is obligated to share anything, and for that I'm thankful for what is shared. However, as one of the administrators / leaders of this community I'd expect that you would behave differently. No amount of smiley faces is going to undo passive aggressive or sarcastic responses like that. Why would I want to go to a meet-up that is being organized by someone who treats everyone outside of his circle (yet still in his community) so dismissively?

We're all here for the same reason and while the rest of us should be thankful for what is planned, executed, and shared by those fortunate enough to have gone, I think it's up to you to remain civil and un-dickish to those that are frustrated that they weren't a part of it -- even if they did jump to conclusions.

Just my $0.02


... Now everyone be quiet and someone tell me the deepest, darkest secrets of the TNG


Edit: In typical "me"-fashion I've gone and replied to something without noticing two full pages of comments have appeared since. Feel free to move this to that community building thread or dismiss it entirely. Sorry for completely going off-topic.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 06:48:18 pm
I'd like to add to my previous post that, had I actually noticed the comments after the one I quoted, I wouldn't have posted anything because I think it was all cleared up nicely.

I should probably refresh my browser more often before typing something up :)
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 07:33:48 pm
Nope, you're absolutely correct codebread. I've got a post here I'm still writing, but seriously: thanks for calling me out.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 16, 2017, 07:36:09 pm
I here ya codebread.  Certainly not my intent to make people feel ostracized, and for that, I do apologize.

I was feeling attacked. As if I had somehow betrayed people helping organizing this whole thing. It takes a lot of hours to plan, a lot of hours to coordinate things, time and money to get swag (posters, patches, etc.), etc. etc. etc. And I got upset, because i felt that somehow me spending all this effort therefore makes me owe someone who showed up after the party and was upset we didn't save them cake. I am not a trained monkey, I don't preform on demand, though probably I would for tips :P . Because I felt attacked, I immediately went on the defensive - which was stupid.

Seems a bit strange to immediately go on the attack - calling me names no less - because I didn't do something they wanted.  Again, as if I haven't spent hundreds of hours facilitating this communities existence. Now, I can see how my comment could be read in a way that makes it sound bad. I do. And again, I'm sincerely sorry for that. But, I don't think there is a generous way to interpret Spooky's post, but I'll let them defend their position should they choose too.
---

Aside, to play devil's advocate for a minute (feel free to ignore, mostly rhetorical):
Is it out of touch with reality?
Who is owed what, and why?
How many hours are required to make one 'owed' the opportunity?
How many dollars?
How many posts?
Should we discriminate based on that criteria?
What of those that did 'pay' something, be it time, money, or both. What are they owed, and is it fair that they should have their experiences freely given to those who didn't? Exactly how much is owed, and why?
Some flew in from thousands of miles away to make it. Most spent hundreds of dollars. Some bummed a ride and a room from those generous to enough to share. Some spent years, years!, nurturing a relationship to allow this to even happen. The work that went into this has been years in the making, thousands of dollars, hundreds of man hours. Why does that make them owe anyone anything?

Isn't expecting something for nothing far more out of touch with reality?
More in touch would be to be more discriminating, not less. Maybe close the subforum down to people with less than, say, 250 posts. Let people earn their entertainment, yeah? After all, its not fair to expect something for nothing...

Of course, I'd never do that, but still the question: what's fair?
---

We are all just a community facilitating itself to exist. We are not in a business transaction. No contract, other than social, has been made. No one is owed anything other than the conversations we have here.
The exception is the rules that are set forth, which really just boils down to one thing: Facilitate conversation in a positive way, or get out. No one is above those rules, including myself. For breaking that rule, I have moved this conversation here to help better understand where I went wrong. I hope to learn and grow from the experience, and ask only that others try to do the same. For that, codebread, I thank you for calling me out. No hard feelings :) (smiley faces do help online communications due to the lack of non verbal ques, an aping of our ancient selves into this new medium. but a conversation for a later thread I think)
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: codebread on August 16, 2017, 08:16:51 pm
I here ya codebread.  Certainly not my intent to make people feel ostracized, and for that, I do apologize.

I was feeling attacked. As if I had somehow betrayed people helping organizing this whole thing. It takes a lot of hours to plan, a lot of hours to coordinate things, time and money to get swag (posters, patches, etc.), etc. etc. etc. And I got upset, because i felt that somehow me spending all this effort therefore makes me owe someone who showed up after the party and was upset we didn't save them cake. I am not a trained monkey, I don't preform on demand, though probably I would for tips :P . Because I felt attacked, I immediately went on the defensive - which was stupid.

Seems a bit strange to immediately go on the attack - calling me names no less - because I didn't do something they wanted.  Again, as if I haven't spent hundreds of hours facilitating this communities existence. Now, I can see how my comment could be read in a way that makes it sound bad. I do. And again, I'm sincerely sorry for that. But, I don't think there is a generous way to interpret Spooky's post, but I'll let them defend their position should they choose too.

Honestly, I understand and sympathize with your position. I co-own a small company and I frequently organize or sit at the helm of various things, so I know the feeling of people being ungrateful and thinking they are owed something. I just wanted to poke you to be better than them, considering you're one of the few who help run this community.

As for the rest of it, I was really just getting at dismissing how difficult it is for some people to go by simply saying, "come next year". Hell, I'm in Boston and I couldn't afford the time or money to make the trip. Of course I'm also not going to bitch and moan if I don't get to see/hear/read what happened that weekend, but I can understand if people feel left out just because they simply had no means to attend. Assuming it's as simple as being willing to go is what's out of touch with reality. I'm really just borrowing an argument from discussions about education for those living in poverty; "just go to college" isn't as easy as it sounds for everyone.

TL;DR No one owes anyone anything, except gratitude for you guys putting the event together and sharing information. Just gotta be nice to each other because there's barely any of us in comparison to other communities.

Edit: Also, yeah, Spooky was more out of line than you were if you ask me. I'm just holding you to a higher standard I guess :P
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 21, 2017, 12:23:09 pm
[Edit: tleilaxu apologized below. Thank you for helping us keep this forum great :) ]
While not the first offender in this particular thread, I believe so far that it was the most egregious.

Merch, you can paint is as the evil empire, go ahead. I don't believe it. Without us WWII would of been lost and Europe wouldn't exist. Get down on your knees and give thanks to Merica' everyday of your God giving life. ;)
"My country saved yours 70 years ago, now get down and suck my tiny circumcised and diabetes-ridden American cock and accept every shitty thing we've done since then", MSJ said as he fired his assault rifle from the top of his mobility scooter, accidentally killing an unarmed black man in the process. "Thank the Lawd Jesus for our every burger and french fry" he shouted loudly while driving over the Nigger's corpse and tipping his MAGA cap.

Honestly, resorting to name calling is embarrassing. If you have to resort to straw man arguments you might as well not be posting.

Or, put another way, "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".


tleilaxu, what was your goal in posting this?
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 21, 2017, 12:44:08 pm
I apologize, I didn't actually mean for the tone to be so scathing in that post, it's just the best response I could gather right at that moment to the "get on your knees comment". I couldn't just leave it alone because it indicates a pretty toxic attitude, but at the same time I was stumped as to how to properly respond to it, so I thought caricaturic humour would be appropriate but now I realize what I wrote is kind of a mess.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 21, 2017, 12:45:28 pm
Thanks, tleilaxu.

I edited my last post there about 30 times because I had a similar issue. If you'd like to edit yours in-thread and, eh, rephrase it, please do.

I didn't see that comment by MSJ, sorry. Tensions are high, clearly both comments are out of line - whether in jest or otherwise, given the present tone.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: MSJ on August 21, 2017, 02:16:30 pm
Well, Tleilaxu, I'm sorry but I don't see it as a caricature. Quite frankly Im offended, tbh. You don't know me or my background. I have 3 sisters whom are half-black, we share the same mother. To make a comment that I would the N-word and paint me as a racist, quote frankly is very rude. Just because you have different views on the subject, doesn't mean we have to resort to name calling and making judgments on each other. The comment to Merchant was a joke and he got that. Wasn't even directed at you.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on August 21, 2017, 06:14:26 pm
Its difficult, when we have these conversations going on with people who have different degrees of familiarity.
Harmless jokes between two people is an outrageous insult to the person standing next to him.

FWIW, I did see MSJ/TM's exchange as joking. Unfortunately, in a place this public it's rarely ever that simple.

IRL we don't typically have this issue for various reasons, but I'd like to thank you guys to attempting to coexist here :) .
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 22, 2017, 07:38:42 am
Sorry for butting in with my two cents here...

It's all too easy, especially when discussing politics, to rely on a pre-established narrative shorthand in dealing with other people doing their best to summarize complicated views in an imperfect medium. I'm guilty of this myself; MSJ, I had you pegged as a Trump supporter/Bush guy/hater of Obama/etc., largely because the views you've expressed in the thread we've argued in don't easily fit into my preexisting mental image of a Trump critic/Obama voter/liberal/whatever. Obviously, people are more complex than simple mental shortcuts can convey adequately, but it was all too easy on my end to fall into the trap of "vocal patriotism + support for the Iraq war = Republican = image already formed in my mind regardless of the situation's reality." Same on tleilaxu's end, I would assume.

As to his comments, they were quite obviously a caricature of Americans-as-viewed-by-Europeans to me; but I traffic highly in countercultural and anti-American sentiment, so my mind already possessed the cognitive detours necessary to see the statement as intended. America's liberal party is well to the right of most European nations' centrist platform, we're renowned for our cultural arrogance worldwide, we lead the world in obesity and overindulgence, we love our guns, and even as a die-hard patriot you have to admit we've had a bit of an issue with race and police brutality in our distant past recent past last Thursday right now. I doubt he intended any direct accusation of racism against you; but again, all too easy to fall into that mental shorthand, and assume the American making American statements is the strawman American fitting the negative stereotypes established, reinforced and exaggerated.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Woden on August 22, 2017, 09:35:33 am
America's liberal party is well to the right of most European nations' centrist platform,

In Spain even the right party is making socialist politics and the tyranny of political correctness is overwhelming.
LOL.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Madness on August 22, 2017, 01:17:55 pm
Having not read the thread per time allowances/use, I can't comment on the original posts - which I probably read out of order in "most recent posts," regardless.

I imagine that we should all take care constructing our posts with, perhaps, more diligence (as I expect of Bakker readers at this point, really) when communicating with posters of varying histories on the forum - especially in threads which garner a certain intensity or ferocity.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: MSJ on August 22, 2017, 02:43:10 pm
Quote
It's all too easy, especially when discussing politics, to rely on a pre-established narrative shorthand in dealing with other people doing their best to summarize complicated views in an imperfect medium. I'm guilty of this myself; MSJ, I had you pegged as a Trump supporter/Bush guy/hater of Obama/etc., largely because the views you've expressed in the thread we've argued in don't easily fit into my preexisting mental image of a Trump critic/Obama voter/liberal/whatever. Obviously, people are more complex than simple mental shortcuts can convey adequately, but it was all too easy on my end to fall into the trap of "vocal patriotism + support for the Iraq war = Republican = image already formed in my mind regardless of the situation's reality." Same on tleilaxu's end, I would assume.

You pegged me wrong. While I know that the Iraq war was undertaken in false pretense(maybe, it wouldn't have been hard for Sadaam to get the chemical weapons out before the inspectors came in, thats another thread though), once it was going to happen it was going to happen. So, I was glad Sadaam was getting what was coming to him at that point. And once we commit, then we need to commit to helping that nation rebuild.

Yea, the internet especially has created this "ground" where you are either left or right. And, when you say something that allies you with a side, your instantly pegged as that. In this case, I'm a gun-totting, racist from the backwoods of West Virginia. When in all reality, none of thats true. I don't own a gun, never have. I have a bi-racial family, I care for many friends that are LGBTQ+. But, I believe in the right to bear arms, just believe we need stricter regulations and don't get me started on these new open carry laws. Im straight down the middle man. I have views that lie on the left and the right. I will always respect the position of office as President of America (though, right now I don't think you can even call it that, more like a fucking clown show). On the internet, your either pegged as left or right, when in reality its much more complex than that. But, that's the nature of the internet. Where, unless I quote 45 articles and have 100% knowledge of whats on topic, you or I am not taken seriously. When, people can have views and those view be important to them without having a PhD in the subject. It allows no face to face communication where you can understand one better and not just paint a picture in your mind. But, here we are, and that's what you have to deal with.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: TaoHorror on September 05, 2017, 11:54:07 pm
Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Redeagl on September 06, 2017, 08:44:45 pm
Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?
Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Redeagl on September 07, 2017, 12:12:59 pm
Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?
Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.
Did I just post this in the building better community thread?  Jokes on me. What was I on yesterday? Sorry Tao, I am an idiot.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: TaoHorror on September 07, 2017, 06:52:46 pm
Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?
Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.
Did I just post this in the building better community thread?  Jokes on me. What was I on yesterday? Sorry Tao, I am an idiot.

Naw, man, you're cool. I think this was what this thread was for - calling out provocateurs and disrespectful conversation. In retrospect, it was poor and unfunny. I was aiming it as a bit of humor on how "Bakker treats women" in his story, but came off lame. I'll retract it.

For the record, and I really really mean this, I care for and respect all of you. I suffer from mischief syndrome and sometimes can't help myself. The more inane my post, the more bored I am at the moment.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: MSJ on September 07, 2017, 07:27:46 pm
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Naw, man, you're cool. I think this was what this thread was for - calling out provocateurs and disrespectful conversation. In retrospect, it was poor and unfunny. I was aiming it as a bit of humor on how "Bakker treats women" in his story, but came off lame. I'll retract it.

For the record, and I really really mean this, I care for and respect all of you. I suffer from mischief syndrome and sometimes can't help myself. The more inane my post, the more bored I am at the moment

I have the same problem. I tend to be sarcastic and taking as a jerk. Hard to convey sarcasm on the Webs.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2017, 02:46:58 am
Ah, the witches, the bitches ... the witches are this story's most tedious feature ... everyone knows women are too stupid for spell casting ... how about you cast the clean the fucking kitchen spell, master that one and we'll talk, eh?
Sorry Tao, I don't mean any offence but I think Wilshire cautioned against comments like these even if it's just sarcasm.
Did I just post this in the building better community thread?  Jokes on me. What was I on yesterday? Sorry Tao, I am an idiot.

I moved the posts here.
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: Wilshire on December 03, 2017, 05:10:58 pm
Purposfully inflammetory remarks are against forum policy. If you have personal issues to work out with other forum members, please do so respectfully, here.

...

"We"? You and what army, pal?
Title: Re: Building Better Community
Post by: BeardFisher-King on December 03, 2017, 06:58:18 pm
Query: Why does JamesA01's post appear as an ellipsis?