The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Cuttlefish on March 29, 2017, 03:51:13 am

Title: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on March 29, 2017, 03:51:13 am
Hey, looks like I forgot about Bakker for a while, but doing a re-read of TGO made me think on several things. Rather than make a new thread for each, I thought a blanket thread would be better.

My first thoughts are on the Dûnyain. A practical question I'd have is, how do they avoid incest and its genetic ramifications for a thousand years, in a small community? Secondly, isn't it a bit suspicious that a sect so dispossessed of passions, particularly any facial gestures, and has no intention of actually interacting with rest of the world, is so obsessive in mastering them? A pet theory I have is that the first founders of Dûnyain, or perhaps a figure that influenced them, specifically influenced them towards their Shortest Path so that they'd create an individual like Kellhus that could possess entire nations, to the ends that he does.

A second thought that occured to me is; how close do you think the Anasurimbor conception of the Absolute is, to Fanimry? I am a bit too busy buried under studies to actually do a full re-read of the first trilogy, but as I recall, Fane alleged that there was a  Solitary God, and the idols the Three-Seas worshipped were demons - now, the Anasurimbor don't actually believe that the Hundred are demons (but then again, what precisely is a demon?), but their perception of God, at its essence, seems to be solitary. In fact, Kellhus's full blooded Dûnyain son (what's his name - I keep forgetting names in this series), without the prior knowledge of Three Seas religions, perceives the  Absolute as being singular. What are your thoughts? Do you think Fane was the true prophet, to begin with?

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality? Because I don't think we've yet seen a person judged by Mimara, and was not damned; the only thing I can recall as being judged to be good is the chorae.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 29, 2017, 10:50:22 am

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality?

A few thoughts in response:

1. The Absolute doesn't create a code of morality, it simply recognizes (or perhaps a better word would be illuminates) the objective morality that arises from the actions of men.

2. The Darkness that comes before all men does not necessarily mean that all men are ruled by their inner urges and, hence, there is no free will. It doesn't mean we can't know what moves us; it means we don't know what moves us.

Nice post, Cuttlefish.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: H on March 29, 2017, 12:10:45 pm
Hey, looks like I forgot about Bakker for a while, but doing a re-read of TGO made me think on several things. Rather than make a new thread for each, I thought a blanket thread would be better.

My first thoughts are on the Dûnyain. A practical question I'd have is, how do they avoid incest and its genetic ramifications for a thousand years, in a small community? Secondly, isn't it a bit suspicious that a sect so dispossessed of passions, particularly any facial gestures, and has no intention of actually interacting with rest of the world, is so obsessive in mastering them? A pet theory I have is that the first founders of Dûnyain, or perhaps a figure that influenced them, specifically influenced them towards their Shortest Path so that they'd create an individual like Kellhus that could possess entire nations, to the ends that he does.

Indeed, even pre-TGO I wondered if someone, like Seswatha perhaps, sent the Dûnyain to Ishûal for the exact purpose of "raising" the Harbinger.  Considering the Celmoman Prophecy, I don't see that as being all too far fetched.

A second thought that occured to me is; how close do you think the Anasurimbor conception of the Absolute is, to Fanimry? I am a bit too busy buried under studies to actually do a full re-read of the first trilogy, but as I recall, Fane alleged that there was a  Solitary God, and the idols the Three-Seas worshipped were demons - now, the Anasurimbor don't actually believe that the Hundred are demons (but then again, what precisely is a demon?), but their perception of God, at its essence, seems to be solitary. In fact, Kellhus's full blooded Dûnyain son (what's his name - I keep forgetting names in this series), without the prior knowledge of Three Seas religions, perceives the  Absolute as being singular. What are your thoughts? Do you think Fane was the true prophet, to begin with?

Well, post-TGO, I think viewing the Hundred as a certain type of "demon" isn't far from the truth.  The Consult certainly shared the view of them as such and there seems to be evidence that the Nonmen did (do?) too.  Why?  Because, if Kellhus is to be believed, they are creatures of endless hunger.  Feeding off damnation, what would be their incentive to offer real salvation?

My hunch is there isn't really any such thing as genuine salvation in the light of the Hundred.  This is why the Nonmen never worshiped them and why Aurang even tells Inrau, "you worship suffering."  The Hundred are demons who feast off the suffering of mortals.

The "issue" and one that I presented pre-TGO, in discussing whether the Psûkhe was really "divine" or not, was that the Solitary God was (is?) not manifest.  It is a concept, an abstraction.  Something would exist, could exist, but does not currently.  Perhaps even the Hundred are the fractures of that Solitary God.  So, was Fane a "true prophet?"  No and yes, depending on how you want to think of what true prophecy is.  What he said was false when he said it, but that doesn't mean it won't be true, eventually, in no small part due to his saying.

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

I think that is a fair idea, but I don't think Kellhus aim is really at the dissemination of Truth, but rather a construction of a truth.  The difference being that the Thousandfold Thought is untrue as stated, but becomes true through it's crafting.  An actively constructed truth.  The question would be, "what is the aim of the Thought?" 

The Voice tells Kellhus:
"I war not with Men, it says, but with the God.
“Yet no one but Men die,” the Aspect-Emperor replies.
The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground.
“But I tend the fields.”
The dark figure stands beneath the tree, begins walking toward him. It seems the climbing stars should hook and carry him in the void, but he is like the truth of iron—impervious and immovable.
It stands before him, regards him—as it has so many times—with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.
Then who better to burn them?"

I wonder though, is Kellhus trying to outmaneuver the Gods, the Consult, and himself?  Play all sides against the middle?  But the middle is what, the revision of damnation?  Himself as the Solitary God?

Perhaps the whole point is that simply being True doesn't mean it is good.  The Consult has the truth on their side and they are quite evil.  Kellhus is a liar and yet, is the "good guy" in all of this.  I do agree though, that Kellhus is "beyond good and evil" in a way.  Reminds me of these epigraphs, both from TTT, Chapter 7:

"Every woman knows there are only two kinds of men: those who feel and those who pretend. Always remember, my dear, though only the former can be loved, only the latter can be trusted. It is passion that blackens eyes, not calculation.
—ANONYMOUS LETTER"

"It is far better to outwit Truth than to apprehend it.
—AINONI PROVERB"

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality? Because I don't think we've yet seen a person judged by Mimara, and was not damned; the only thing I can recall as being judged to be good is the chorae.

Well, I don't know that the Cubit was created by any one, divine or mortal though.  It is simply a "natural fact" the same as protons are positively charged and electrons negatively.  The Cubit is the ontological firmament of the universe, the ontological blue-print of the universe.  I don't know that the answer to why really tells us much.  I think how is really where we should look.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on March 29, 2017, 02:40:08 pm
Great to see you back, Cuttlefish.

Hey, looks like I forgot about Bakker for a while, but doing a re-read of TGO made me think on several things. Rather than make a new thread for each, I thought a blanket thread would be better.

My first thoughts are on the Dûnyain. A practical question I'd have is, how do they avoid incest and its genetic ramifications for a thousand years, in a small community? Secondly, isn't it a bit suspicious that a sect so dispossessed of passions, particularly any facial gestures, and has no intention of actually interacting with rest of the world, is so obsessive in mastering them? A pet theory I have is that the first founders of Dûnyain, or perhaps a figure that influenced them, specifically influenced them towards their Shortest Path so that they'd create an individual like Kellhus that could possess entire nations, to the ends that he does.

On incest, I made this thread some time ago: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.msg8263#msg8263
I'll extract a quote from that in case you don't want to read that wall of text
Quote
I got to 7 generations with these 8 families before any child was realted to all of the others. Keep in mind that his is only a sample, each could be done in a different order with different parents each time. This makes it possible to have every possible permutation of that final circle: every combinations of colors would be possible to get.
One thing to note is that at generation 6 I stopped breeding the “pure” lines. This is because, at 12-15 years between each generation, those original children would be unlikely to still be alive, but their offspring could still be viable breeding partners.



Basically demonstrating that you can avoid incenst without too huge of an effort with a pretty small population. In the case above, 6(!) generations without any inbreeding whatsoever. At that point, the original parental genes have almost been squeezed out of the equation. If you recombine these in a different way using the same set, you can get 7th generation offspring that are mathematically related but are functionally entirely separate bloodlines still. To keep it up past that it gets complicated very quickly, but given that I figured that out in a couples hours when I was bored, I think an entire population of brilliant people who's lives were at stake to solve this issue, I think they could handle it.
 
We don't know how many they started with, so its difficult to say for sure, but even with average intelligence and sufficient planning, its at least possible. Add to that that they clearly used some extraordinary techniques, ie Whale Mothers, and the fact that after some number of generation they became super intellectual human computational machines, I'm satisfied that they didn't really have that issue.

On faces: in order to grasp the absolute they must first yoke the legion within. The training of facial recognition helps them identify passions within themselves as much as outside. Once mastered, it allows and extremely deep intimacy between all those that of the community, allowing them to shed the inadequacies of language and peer directly into thoughts/emotions.

Your theory: Gene Besserit, Tlalaxu, and other Dune analogues abound. Quite possible, yes.


A second thought that occured to me is; how close do you think the Anasurimbor conception of the Absolute is, to Fanimry? I am a bit too busy buried under studies to actually do a full re-read of the first trilogy, but as I recall, Fane alleged that there was a  Solitary God, and the idols the Three-Seas worshipped were demons - now, the Anasurimbor don't actually believe that the Hundred are demons (but then again, what precisely is a demon?), but their perception of God, at its essence, seems to be solitary. In fact, Kellhus's full blooded Dûnyain son (what's his name - I keep forgetting names in this series), without the prior knowledge of Three Seas religions, perceives the  Absolute as being singular. What are your thoughts? Do you think Fane was the true prophet, to begin with?

I think its likely Fane approached the Truth, and the Absolute and the Solitary God are pretty close conceptually. Granted, the Absolute is essentially an philosophical/logical/mathematical construct, whereas the Solitary God is a faith/spiritual based entity.
Seeing Koringhus' reaction to The Judging Eye, I'd guess the truth is somewhere between the two.



A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

I don't think you can step outside of good/evil and have a conversation about this. It all comes down to the means taken to reach whatever end.
Kellhus, imo, is functionally the exact same thing as the Inchoroi.
If the 'gods' are truely just evil demons that eat humans souls and perpetuate a cycle of endless suffering, then the 'good guys' would be anyone and everyone attempting to break the cycle. That means all the dunyain, all the inchoroi, Kellhus, the Consult, etc., are all 'the good guys'.
But at what point do the means overshadow the ends?
At what point does murdering an entire world to 'save' those murdered become evil in-and-of-itself?
At what point does forcing the entire population of humanity to die in order to free them just simply become worse than what the Gods are doing? What if they fail? Then all the suffering was for nothing and Kellhus becomes arguable worse than the gods.

On the flip side, what of doing nothing? What of allowing people to perpetuate the cycle in relative happiness and ignorance? That seems evil, if you Know that they are ignorantly diving headlong into and eternity of suffering. There's some obligation to help them.

On and on and on the conversation goes. Comes down to personal feelings on the subject. How important is Truth? Do means matter vs. the ends they are purportedly for? What of happiness - who gets to choose what times of happiness are allowed, what types of suffering is permissible?

I don't think there are absolute answers for these types of questions, and that's one of the 'points' Bakker is making with these books. We know he thinks about the future and the advent of the Semantic Apocalypse. The effect of technology and how its going to short-circuit our millennia old morality drivers. He's forcing the conversation. Demanding we, the readers, determine for ourselves and amongst our peers, who gets define morality, 'good', 'evil'. Define the bounds of 'justice', 'humanity', not in an absolute sense, but for ourselves, because we are approaching a world (be it 10 years or 50 years or 1000 years) where we will be able to do that in a very real way.

 


Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality? Because I don't think we've yet seen a person judged by Mimara, and was not damned; the only thing I can recall as being judged to be good is the chorae.

I think you've somewhat combined the Solitary God and the Absolute. The Absolute exists beyond good and evil, but also beyond damnation, beyond even 'being'. Its a concept that sits above everything, else it refutes its own existence - gee that sounds like God doesnt it :P .

I guess things in Earwa can be objectively good/evil/whatever. Things can be Holy or Damned. But the Absolute isn't necessarily causing or imposing these attributes onto things. At best, The Judging Eye shows us what Is, but not how it came to be that way. It almost certainly had to have been created as such, implying that there is a creator, but The Absolute necessarily stands outside of the cycle of creation. I think?



Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on March 29, 2017, 10:58:35 pm

A third point I have in mind is about Kellhus himself. Being a fan of the character, I'm inclined to view him more positively (or at least, beyond good and evil), and I've been thinking about two things in particular. First is, his conversation in the original trilogy with Moenghus; basically, they're discussing the worldborn, and Kellhus asks (in relation to informing them) "But what about the Truth?", and Moenghus replies something like "they will never understand it, but you already know this, so why do you ask?". Now, the second thing is Kellhus's study of Proyas in the last book, where it is flated out stated that the purpose of the study is to discern the effects of the Truth on the worldborn. My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality?

A few thoughts in response:

1. The Absolute doesn't create a code of morality, it simply recognizes (or perhaps a better word would be illuminates) the objective morality that arises from the actions of men.

2. The Darkness that comes before all men does not necessarily mean that all men are ruled by their inner urges and, hence, there is no free will. It doesn't mean we can't know what moves us; it means we don't know what moves us.

Nice post, Cuttlefish.

1. The idea that the Absolute does not create morality, but rather just comprehends it could be true, but I strongly doubt that it arises from the actions of men. After all, how could it be objective, if it is influenced by men?

2. I think it largely means that they can't control what moves them. The Dunyain know what moves them, and in their folly, they thought that they could control it, but Moenghus flat out confirms that even the Dunyain are still moved by their urges, and Kellhus demonstrates it, I think twice, in the first trilogy and possibly once in the second.

---

Generally, though, the conception of the Absolute as being distinct from divinity creates an interesting possibility: what if Kellhus, or someone else, does actually reach it, and since the Absolute is not bound by anything, and therefore can't be bound by time, it exists all at once? In fact, the ways the Absolute influences the world, if it does at all, could be the product of a causal loop; the Absolute creating Kellhus (or whoever else) so that he can become the Absolute.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 12:42:43 am
This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false? That the Dunyain's whole line of thinking was wrong? You cannot control circumstance in a predetermined world, which Earwa seems to be. That's what Koringgus found out, that everything has already happened, that's what he deduced from the JE.

Yet, we have the case of the WLW. What was thought to be pre-determined, was not. Lokisnow has a great post at Westerosi explaining how Kelmommas was the Narindar of Ajokli  (which I preached was the case pre-TGO and TGO confirmed that for me), and how by watching the WLW he basically hid in the "blindspot" of the Gods. In short, by following the WLW around he essentially mimicked the WlW's  path, hence staying hidden from the WLW and the Gods. It was a great post and explains how Kelmommas breaks the circuit.

I am not too sure there is much free will on Earwa by what textual evidence we have. Their only seem to be a few people who are powerful enough, or smart enough to step outside of what is predetermined. Even in Kelmommas's case you can say that by sacrificing the beetle to Ajokli, Ajokli aided him in his witnessing of the WLW. Myself, I don't think the Absolute even exists. I think it's a pipedream of the Dunyain. I even have the feeling that somewhere Kellhus will be surprised by fate, something he could of never seen coming, nor prepared for.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 12:58:57 am

My thought is, maybe the twist of the story isn't that Kellhus is the bad guy, but that he is the (kinda, sorta, slightly, relatively) good guy, and that he seeks to share the Truth with the world. The Truth being, I suppose, that they are ruled by their inner urges, without free will, and that God does not have a personality like one that they ascribe to him, but is in fact beyond such things.

Actually, that raises another question - if the Absolute is indeed beyond care, beyond good and evil, then why does it create a code of morality? In fact, is the damnation that it brings even related to morality?

A few thoughts in response:

1. The Absolute doesn't create a code of morality, it simply recognizes (or perhaps a better word would be illuminates) the objective morality that arises from the actions of men.

2. The Darkness that comes before all men does not necessarily mean that all men are ruled by their inner urges and, hence, there is no free will. It doesn't mean we can't know what moves us; it means we don't know what moves us.

Nice post, Cuttlefish.

1. The idea that the Absolute does not create morality, but rather just comprehends it could be true, but I strongly doubt that it arises from the actions of men. After all, how could it be objective, if it is influenced by men?

2. I think it largely means that they can't control what moves them. The Dunyain know what moves them, and in their folly, they thought that they could control it, but Moenghus flat out confirms that even the Dunyain are still moved by their urges, and Kellhus demonstrates it, I think twice, in the first trilogy and possibly once in the second.

---

Generally, though, the conception of the Absolute as being distinct from divinity creates an interesting possibility: what if Kellhus, or someone else, does actually reach it, and since the Absolute is not bound by anything, and therefore can't be bound by time, it exists all at once? In fact, the ways the Absolute influences the world, if it does at all, could be the product of a causal loop; the Absolute creating Kellhus (or whoever else) so that he can become the Absolute.

When I say that objective morality arises from the actions of men, I mean that any action a man takes can be read from an objective viewpoint. I take the Judging Eye to be just that viewpoint. The actions don't influence the viewpoint, just as a photographic subject doesn't influence the camera. But ethics is a thorny thicket, and I am reluctant to opine much further. I hope that's clearer (but am afraid it's just murkier).

I am also reluctant to equate lack of awareness of what comes before to lack of free will. Kellhus, as the reigning ur- Dûnyain, is still surprised by the actions of others on (rare) occasion. So clearly free will is still in play; Kelmomas demonstrates that quite clearly in the final palace scene of TGO, to the dismay of the Narindar.

Finally, some more food for thought: In rereading the final chapter involving the Survivor, it seems that his "senseless" suicide is actually his embracement of the Darkness that comes before. His leap into the abyss is a freely chosen act which he does for reasons not known to him. It is a rejection of the Logos and of Dûnyain philosophy.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 11:29:54 am
[
Finally, some more food for thought: In rereading the final chapter involving the Survivor, it seems that his "senseless" suicide is actually his embracement of the Darkness that comes before. His leap into the abyss is a freely chosen act which he does for reasons not known to him. It is a rejection of the Logos and of Dûnyain philosophy.

If Koringhus's death was senseless, then what was even the point of showing us him deducing the Zero-God? There is a case, and made by many that Koringhus sees the JE and figures out what really matters. After all, Bakker says Serwe is a sort of cipher for the series, and what Koringhus says is holy is a exact description of her. I would say that is the most important chapter so far in the whole series, as far as showing us the metaphysics of Earwa.

ETA: also, the reason is known to him. He sees that after Mimara forgives him and he understands the JE, the JE  approves of him and he commits suicide because he is free of damnation.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on March 30, 2017, 01:27:27 pm
I feel like people see walls of text and then just ignore them. Sigh, I try.

This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false?

Yes and no. He says largely what Kellhus said way back in WP. That the principle of before and after is still true, but with some modifications.

The world can't be entirely deterministic because the Gods don't see everything, don't know everything.

On Kelmomas:
We know that Kelmomas was outside the sight of Yatwer and Kellhus in that moment. We don't know if he was a narindar. Maybe he was just some soulless quasi-dunyain-sranc freak that the gods couldn't perceive due to the whole 'intellects without a soul' thing.

If Koringhus's death was senseless, then what was even the point of showing us him deducing the Zero-God?
Depends how you define senseless. It served a plot purpose, thats for sure, and gave us the idea, or the foundation of an idea, of the Zero-God - whatever the hell that is. His suicide doesn't need to have meaning though - he could have been wrong just like all the other Dunyain we've seen. Fallible like the rest.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 01:52:29 pm
I feel like people see walls of text and then just ignore them. Sigh, I try.

Cheer up, Wilshire. It could be worse. You could be nailed to a wall of text by a particularly argumentative Mekeretrig as was poor Seswatha in the bad old days.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: H on March 30, 2017, 01:53:47 pm
I feel like people see walls of text and then just ignore them. Sigh, I try.

I know the feeling.

This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false?

Yes and no. He says largely what Kellhus said way back in WP. That the principle of before and after is still true, but with some modifications.

The world can't be entirely deterministic because the Gods don't see everything, don't know everything.

On Kelmomas:
We know that Kelmomas was outside the sight of Yatwer and Kellhus in that moment. We don't know if he was a narindar. Maybe he was just some soulless quasi-dunyain-sranc freak that the gods couldn't perceive due to the whole 'intellects without a soul' thing.

Locke gave a pretty convincing argument that signs certainly do point to little Kel as being a narindar of Ajolki.  Or at least so the text seems to strongly imply.

If Koringhus's death was senseless, then what was even the point of showing us him deducing the Zero-God?
Depends how you define senseless. It served a plot purpose, thats for sure, and gave us the idea, or the foundation of an idea, of the Zero-God - whatever the hell that is. His suicide doesn't need to have meaning though - he could have been wrong just like all the other Dunyain we've seen. Fallible like the rest.

I think the further point is that Mimara, via the Eye, is the real Shortest Path.  One that Kellhus may end up taking.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 02:11:13 pm
[
Finally, some more food for thought: In rereading the final chapter involving the Survivor, it seems that his "senseless" suicide is actually his embracement of the Darkness that comes before. His leap into the abyss is a freely chosen act which he does for reasons not known to him. It is a rejection of the Logos and of Dûnyain philosophy.

If Koringhus's death was senseless, then what was even the point of showing us him deducing the Zero-God? There is a case, and made by many that Koringhus sees the JE and figures out what really matters. After all, Bakker says Serwe is a sort of cipher for the series, and what Koringhus says is holy is a exact description of her. I would say that is the most important chapter so far in the whole series, as far as showing us the metaphysics of Earwa.

ETA: also, the reason is known to him. He sees that after Mimara forgives him and he understands the JE, the JE  approves of him and he commits suicide because he is free of damnation.

I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: H on March 30, 2017, 02:20:09 pm
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

Well, the whole thing is framed at how the Logos (i.e. rational logic, meaning based on logic) is flawed though, right?

So, Koringhus embraces the paradox that the rational thing to do in the face of the unrational (the Eye) is an anti-rational action (suicide)?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 02:30:04 pm
Thanks Wilshire, you do try and keep everyone involved and I commend You! :)

I think there is plenty of textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli, though I won't rehash it for the tenth time. It's also possible he isn't, just not what I personally believe. In a world filled with meaning, that beetle meant something.
Q
I think H has the right of it. It might be more important that Mimara is the Shortest Path. I think we learn alot about how Earwa works, and we only learn it through Koringhus.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 02:34:56 pm
[
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

I see where coming from. It could very well be his rejection of Dunyain principles, I'm quite sure it is. But, he only abandoned those principles when he apprehended the JE. So, I say they go hand in hand.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 02:42:56 pm
Here is Locke's post at Westeros. I find it brilliant.

Quote
Okay, but you all realize that everything I've ever written on the series is always already wrong, right?

But let's just try and stick to the text, I'm sure as I craft this post that it will go off the rails eventually, it usually does.

But be aware, I just started Stranger Things, and I'm writing this damn post instead of watching episode 2, so sacrifices for you people are being made. ;):)

  Quote
Men, who belong to nature, apprehend their nature as Law when it seems to them to be restrained, and as nature when it seems to them to be unruly.

This is the chapter header for the first Momemn chapter of TGO, think of it in terms of TWLW and Kelmomas and how the pair of them walk "the only path" to achieving yatwer's goal of killing Kellhus (with earthquake, ceiling chorae, broken sword shard etc)

the explanation, however comes from chapter six.

  Quote
“Witness!” an old crone shrieked. “Witnessss!”

SECTION CHANGE

pulse slowed until beaten by a different heart. His breath deepened until drawn by different lungs. Watching with the constancy of the dead, Anasûrimbor Kelmomas settled into the grooves of another soul …

If it could be called such.

  Quote
Only now could he see how wrong he had been— that this diversity had been apparent only, an illusion of his ignorance. How could he not think Men various and strange when Men were his only measure?

 

Now the boy knew better. Now he knew that every human excess, every bloom of manner or passion, radiated from a single, blind stem. For this man— the assassin that had somehow surprised Uncle Holy— had paced out the true beam of possible and impossible acts.

And it was not human … Not at all.

 

Bold mine, italics are original, but think on this, Kelmomas in, mapping the vagaries of the WLW is--as he is saying here--bypassing all the human noise and getting a direct feed of pure id signal.

This should be very valuable to even a half dunyain, as what Kellhus struggles with most from the prologue of book one is decomposing the signal and the noise whilst interacting with the world and with humans.

Note to, that Bakker deliberately primes the audience by ending one section with a repetition of the word Witness. The next section is all about Kelmomas watching--witnessing. and note to that in priming the audience with WITNESS repetition at the end of the section it is actually Psatma making the repetition--Psatma of course is responsible for the existence of the WLW and it is important to keep in mind the value that she (and her goddess) places on WITNESS WITNESS(!!!), because the same should hold true of WLW. this is all direct text stuff, and seems very obvious how it is very carefully structured to make the reader hyper aware of the process of Witnessing of watching and of course you can't have a watcher without a watched. (however dividing up signifier and signified into pardigmatic and syntygmatic realtionships is probably too flattening a thing to get into, I think the close reading (not the author) is dead anyway, so bollucks to everyone).

but digression into christian metz aside, back to the text, what happens when the prince tries to witness

  Quote
For all his gifts, the young Prince-Imperial had yet to learn the disease that was contemplation, how more often than not it was ignorance of alternatives that made bold action bold. He spied upon the Narindar, matching him immobility for immobility, pulling every corner of his being into the straight line that was the assassin’s soul— every corner, that is, save his intellect, which asked again and again, How can I end her? with the relentlessness of an insect. He lay unblinking, the taste of dust upon his tongue, scarcely breathing, peering between interleaved fronds of iron, raging at his twin, ranting, and even, on occasion, weeping for the unbearable injustice. And so he spun within a motionless frame, pondering, until pondering so polluted his pondering he could bear ponder no more!

He would marvel at it afterward, how the mere act of plotting Thelli’s murder had all but assured her survival. How all the scenarios, all the spitting disputes and aggrandizing declamations, had been a mere pretext for this eerie war of immobility he had undertaken against the Narindar … Issiral.

 

Kelm is clearly in the straight line that the narindar walks, because he is quite literally behind the Narindar when the narindar goes to kill kellhus he is literally on the straight line of the perfect path to killing kellhus. He's not so much in the narindar's wake, as he is a clone of the narindar's path, thus he is never outside that path, so the narindar does not account for kelmomas because kelmoms is functionally the same thing.

Note how he runs into a basic science paradox with trying to kill theli: the act of observation (planning) results in the changing the thing that was observed. This is why he was unsuccessful, he could not control the variables.

The WLW is like a science experiment because the WLW is like a control, there is nothing that varies, incredibly valuable to a dunyain. Kelmomas does need an unmasking room of faces to isolate the variables of the musculature of the face, because he has the control--the WLW--to study, and he can compare all against it.

And if in witnessing kelmomas changes it, then perhaps we have an answer for why the WLW failed: because observation changed the object being studied.

  Quote
After endless watches of blank reverie, utter inactivity, the man would simply … do something. Piss. Eat. Take ablution, or on occasion, his leave. Kelmomas would lay watching, his body senseless for being so long inert, suddenly the man would … move. It was as shocking as stone leaping to life, for nothing betrayed any prior will or resolution to move, no restlessness, no impatience borne of anticipation … nothing. The Narindar would just be moving, exiting the door, stalking the frescoed corridors, and Kelmomas would scramble, cursing his prickling limbs. He would fly after him through the very walls … And then, for no apparent reason, the assassin would simply … stop. It was narcotic for simply being so strange. Several days passed before Kelmomas realized that no one … no one … ever witnessed the man acting this way. In the presence of others he would be remote, taciturn, act the way a terrifying assassin should, always careful to assure the others of his humanity, if nothing more. Several times it was Mother who encountered him, coming about a corner, through a door. And no matter what she said, if she said anything at all (for in certain company she would rather not encounter the man at all), he would simply nod wordlessly, then return to his room, and stand … Motionless. Issiral ate. He slept. He shat. His shit stank. The general terror of the slaves was to be expected, as was the hatred of Uncle Holy’s many intimates at the Imperial Court. But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen, only to inexplicably pace five steps to his left, or his right, where he would stand unseen as a gaggle of scullery slaves passed teasing and whispering.

 

This describes a self moving soul. The dunyain seek a self-moving soul.

followed by:

  Quote
The enigma soon began to tyrannize the Prince-Imperial’s thoughts. He started dreaming of his vigils, reliving the stark discipline that occupied his days, except that when his body turned about to slip back in the labyrinthine tunnels, his soul would somehow remain fixed by the louvres, and he would simultaneously watch and crawl away, riven by a horror that plucked him to his very vein, the World shrieking as the face in the flint turned and ever so slowly swivelled up to match his incorporeal look—

 

there's a similarity here in the disassociation of body and soul to Kellhus' flashbacks to training "the logos is without beginning or end"

Kelmomas is being shaped... trained.

by whom?

well the chapter continues:

  Quote
“The greatest of the Narindar, those possessing the blackest hearts … those they say become their mission, indistinguishable from Death. They act not of will, but of necessity, never knowing, always doing that which must be done …” A Vessel of Ajokli."

Why do you refuse to remember? The boy paused in the black. Remember what?

Your Whelming.

He continued his ascent through the cracks of his hallow house. I remember.

Then you remember that beetle …

So? The Gods court us …

And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation …

 

hmm? We go from a section that ends on "A VESSEL OF AJOKLI" speaking of course about WLW, to a section of KELMOMAS pondering the ways in which HE is a vessel of ajokli. There's even a bit about how Kelmomas generally thinks of himself as a hero. and of course, once Kelmomas recognizes himself as the Vessel of Ajokli (not WLW), he seeings Ajokli himself as the quote I ended right there.(soul's eye is always tip-off language, I think)

So what happens in the paragraphs following him seeing Ajokli?

  Quote
And in his soul’s eye he could see Him standing opposite, Immortal Malice, smoking with the density of Creation … Her face snapped toward him— the shock fairly knocked him from his skin. But she looked through him— for an instant it seemed the horror of his dream had been made real, that he hung as vision only, something incorporeal … Insubstantial. But she squinted, her eyes baffled by the lantern glare, and he realized that she saw nothing for limits that were all her own. Kelmomas shrank into the blackness, slipped about the corner.

“Drafts,” Mother explained absently.

 

 

So. Look at that, upthread we have Kelmomas observe the WLW "But what was more remarkable still was the degree to which the man went unnoticed, how he would sometimes tarry in one spot, unseen," and then we end with Kelmomas performing PRECISELY this exact trick, his mother is unable to see him.

Answer, Kelmomas is the vessel of Ajokli, just as WLW is a vessel of Yatwer. and he can achieve the same things. It doesn't matter if he walks the pure beam of WLW's soul or not, we are supposed to understand that long before the climax of the book that Kelmomas is the same thing as the WLW.

  Quote
With every breath he hewed nearer oblivion, face numb, head thick with recent sobs, his eyes two scratches soothed. Gratitude held him … His own Unerring Grace.

That night he dreamed the same dream of the Narindar. This time the man took two instant strides to stand immediately below the grill, leapt, and skewered his eye.

 

earlier in the chapter, the power of the WLW to kill Maithanet is named as the "UNERRING GRACE" Here kelmomas declares for the reader that he has the same power.

The entire chapter six seems to me to methodically spell out extremely clearly what it is Kelmomas is / is becoming and offers a clear explanation for how he will walk a pure path unseen by WLW, because he is the same as WLW.

Eta: excuse my laziness in quoting where it says quote. Nonetheless, those are direct quotes from TGO.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 02:57:44 pm
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

Well, the whole thing is framed at how the Logos (i.e. rational logic, meaning based on logic) is flawed though, right?

So, Koringhus embraces the paradox that the rational thing to do in the face of the unrational (the Eye) is an anti-rational action (suicide)?

Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 03:00:55 pm
[
I agree about the importance of this chapter; I reread it often. I put the adjective "senseless" in quotation marks deliberately. And I take your point that Koringhus did have a reason for his leap. For me, the leap is a rejection of Dûnyain philosophy, based on his apprehension of the Judging Eye and its relationship to the Absolute.

If I were to replace the word "senseless" with the term "anti-rational", perhaps my point would be clearer. But I do see the logic of MSJ's view of the leap being reasonable based on Koringhus' apprehension of the Judging Eye.

I see where coming from. It could very well be his rejection of Dunyain principles, I'm quite sure it is. But, he only abandoned those principles when he apprehended the JE. So, I say they go hand in hand.

Agreed.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: H on March 30, 2017, 04:39:03 pm
Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

The semantics here get real sticky, real quick.  I think I would agree, except that I don't think the Eye is amoral (that is without morals) but rather supra-moral, in the sense they it is beyond human morality, it is actual meta-physical morality itself.

That makes sense in my head, but I think I lack the language to express it.  Perhaps this quote from some random page on the internet:

Quote
The Good is now disengaged, in the fullness of its meaning, more decisively and more forcefully than with Socrates. At the summit of beings and of eternal archetypes, beyond the shadows of becoming, it is the light which nourishes the eternal contemplation of the Gods, whom Plato in the Laws{1} regards as the souls which control the revolution of the Firmament. All that which we call good is so only by participation in this subsistent Good, which is at the same time the sovereign metaphysical Good of the universe, and the ideal moral good of human life, for the most fundamental tendency of Platonic ethics seems to be not, doubtless, to suspend the moral from the supra-moral as Christianity was to do -- that is, as a matter of principle and universally -- but to do so at least for the sage (and for him alone). It is from a supra-morality concerned with the conditions and laws of ascetic and mystical progress toward the Transcendent (and from which are derived the moral virtues in him whom wisdom puts in harmony with divine measures) that the sage descends to the world of men to teach them morality and to make them practice it (if they were not so mad) in governing their political life. The good does not belong to the empirical world, or belongs to it only as a reflection. And our knowledge of the subsistent Good is rather divination than knowledge, because it is beyond everything, even, as we remarked above, beyond being.

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 05:05:23 pm
So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.

What I found interesting, is when Bakker was asked if the JE is actually showing the objective truth of Earwa, he declined to answer. That leaves it open to speculation. Though, I tend to think that it is showing the truth.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 30, 2017, 06:46:21 pm
Yes, exactly. It's the "sideways step". Or I think we could phrase it this way:

"Koringhus embraces the paradox that the moral thing to do in the face of the amoral (the Judging Eye/the Absolute) is an immoral action (suicide)."

The semantics here get real sticky, real quick.  I think I would agree, except that I don't think the Eye is amoral (that is without morals) but rather supra-moral, in the sense they it is beyond human morality, it is actual meta-physical morality itself.

That makes sense in my head, but I think I lack the language to express it.  Perhaps this quote from some random page on the internet:

Quote
The Good is now disengaged, in the fullness of its meaning, more decisively and more forcefully than with Socrates. At the summit of beings and of eternal archetypes, beyond the shadows of becoming, it is the light which nourishes the eternal contemplation of the Gods, whom Plato in the Laws{1} regards as the souls which control the revolution of the Firmament. All that which we call good is so only by participation in this subsistent Good, which is at the same time the sovereign metaphysical Good of the universe, and the ideal moral good of human life, for the most fundamental tendency of Platonic ethics seems to be not, doubtless, to suspend the moral from the supra-moral as Christianity was to do -- that is, as a matter of principle and universally -- but to do so at least for the sage (and for him alone). It is from a supra-morality concerned with the conditions and laws of ascetic and mystical progress toward the Transcendent (and from which are derived the moral virtues in him whom wisdom puts in harmony with divine measures) that the sage descends to the world of men to teach them morality and to make them practice it (if they were not so mad) in governing their political life. The good does not belong to the empirical world, or belongs to it only as a reflection. And our knowledge of the subsistent Good is rather divination than knowledge, because it is beyond everything, even, as we remarked above, beyond being.

So, the Eye is beyond "good" or "evil" and, in fact, that is what gives it it's moral vantage point: being the fount of all morality.  It goes back to Zero, how they zero point is the origin, but also not in the continuum, yet at the same time at all points.

Then again, I am not particularly smart, so maybe this is nonsense.
No, I think that "supra-moral" is the better word, especially since "amoral" has gradually become synonymous with "immoral".

Hey, I'm N.P.S. also! When I discuss philosophy, I'm in the featherweight class.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 30, 2017, 11:50:31 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on March 31, 2017, 02:35:15 am
This is all a very interesting discussion. But, doesn't Koringgus basically show us that the Absolute is false?

No, he realizes that the Dûnyain conception of the Absolute, as being a passive concept waiting to be reached is wrong. The Absolute already exists and already judges/shows judgement. Meanwhile, the worldborn are wrong in thinking that it has a human personality. What Koringhus thinks seems largely in conjuction with Kellhus's description of God of Gods to Proyas, so I think we can assume that, with both Dûnyain having reached the same conclusion through different paths, it's bound to be true.

Koringhus also realizes something both Moenghus and Kellhus already knew - that the brethren are not immune to the Legion Within. That's why he saved the defective, because it was his son, because he had a natural urge to save his own son. I think his "senseless" jump is largely in relation to this - he fully gives up on the Dûnyain Shortest Path, and surrenders to his urges, which push him towards the Absolute, in death.

Also, on the subject of Narindar, I don't quite see how the vessel of Ajokli could be self-moving, seeing that Ajokli moves him; or how the observer effect changes his routines. I am not quite convinced that the self-moving soul, the Absolute, could be physical at all - after all, the meat of the world is still subject to the Dûnyain principles of cause and effect.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 31, 2017, 03:57:30 am
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Monkhound on March 31, 2017, 06:12:58 am
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I was struck by the concept of the Narindar being a teacher for Kelmomas. I hadn't thought of that before, but I does make sense.

Also, we know the moment Koringhus realises the Dunyain mistake: It's the moment he sees his future self laying dead in the canyon, watched by Akka and Mimara. I think seeing himself dead is the reason he may have jumped.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2017, 01:06:57 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

For the same reason I think that people who love to talk about Bakker and his books should do so on a medium dedicated to it, I think that if you want to talk to locke you should talk to him where he's at. Maybe other's feel the same way? By all means though, discuss as you will.
Great stuff in that post though. Miss him ;) .
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 31, 2017, 01:25:08 pm

Also, we know the moment Koringhus realises the Dunyain mistake: It's the moment he sees his future self laying dead in the canyon, watched by Akka and Mimara. I think seeing himself dead is the reason he may have jumped.


I missed that; kudos on your close reading, Monkhound. I'm not sure that vision answers the  "Why?" of Koringhus' leap, though.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 02:09:54 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 02:12:14 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

For the same reason I think that people who love to talk about Bakker and his books should do so on a medium dedicated to it, I think that if you want to talk to locke you should talk to him where he's at. Maybe other's feel the same way? By all means though, discuss as you will.
Great stuff in that post though. Miss him ;) .

I know he took a hiatus from all forms of social medium during the election and after for a bit. He's only posted a couple times over there, I'm sure he'll find his way back. I understand your stance though.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 02:16:29 pm
Cuttlefish, where does Koringhus equate the JE with the Absolute?

ETA: when I'm wrong, I have no problem saying as much. So I went reading through the Koringhus chapters where he apprehended the JE and came across this.


Quote
This, Sister … This is why I bare my throat to the blade of your judgment. This is why I would make myself your slave. For short of death, you, Anasûrimbor Mimara, wife-daughter of Anasûrimbor Kellhus, who is also my father … you, Sister, are the Shortest Path. The Absolute dwells within your Gaze. You … a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang. Thus do I kneel before it, awaiting, accepting, death or illumination—it does not matter which … So long as I am at last known.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2017, 02:17:59 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.
I came to the same conclusion. But we've seen time and again that the obvious explanation isn't necessarily the correct one. I wasn't really until TJE that we got hints of Inrau's inner monologue potentially being God-inspired. Lets hope TUC is enlightening.

I understand your stance though.
Just attempting to avoid being hypocritical, but I hope I don't unduly influence other's.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 31, 2017, 02:58:23 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.
I came to the same conclusion. But we've seen time and again that the obvious explanation isn't necessarily the correct one. I wasn't really until TJE that we got hints of Inrau's inner monologue potentially being God-inspired. Lets hope TUC is enlightening.

Perhaps Samarmas is responsible for that dream....good on him! Get him, Sammi!
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 03:13:58 pm
So no remarks on the brilliance of Locke's post....i would've thought it to spur some convo to say the least. Or, you're all just awestruck at the fucking awesomeness of it. I think it's pretty close to irrefutable textual evidence that Kelmommas is the Narindar of Ajokli. I've basically presented this evidence before. Yet, what I found so brilliant, isthat what makes Kelmommas blind to Yatwer/WLW Is his following of the WLW keeps him in the blind spot of them. Excellent deciphering of the text.

I have to confess that my interest in Kelmomas is limited to awaiting his long-overdue comeuppance. But given that Ajokli is the Trickster God, it would make sense for him to take an interest in a megalomaniacal psychopath like Kelmomas. I fear the last laugh will be had by Ajokli at Kelmomas' expense.

What do you make of Kelmomas' dream of Issaril leaping and skewering his eye? A warning from Ajokli? From Yatwer?

Huh, actually I never  thought much of it other than the imagination of a paranoid child. Remember,  he is scared to death of the WLW in the beginning.
I came to the same conclusion. But we've seen time and again that the obvious explanation isn't necessarily the correct one. I wasn't really until TJE that we got hints of Inrau's inner monologue potentially being God-inspired. Lets hope TUC is enlightening.

Perhaps Samarmas is responsible for that dream....good on him! Get him, Sammi!

Well, it could indeed by Ajokli, if in fact, Kelmommas is his Narindar. That is what spurred Kelmommas to follow and watch the WLW, hence putting him in his wake.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: themerchant on March 31, 2017, 06:45:06 pm
Ajokli's narindar got killed by the WLW, so maybe he killed the WLW.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 06:46:00 pm
Ajokli's narindar got killed by the WLW, so maybe he killed the WLW.

Revenge? I like that Merch, I like it alot.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 06:49:51 pm
I came to the same conclusion. But we've seen time and again that the obvious explanation isn't necessarily the correct one. I wasn't really until TJE that we got hints of Inrau's inner monologue potentially being God-inspired. Lets hope TUC is enlightening.

Remind me. What in the TJE gave us hints that Inrau's inner monologue was potentially God-inspired?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on March 31, 2017, 08:50:30 pm
It just wasn't until TAE that we got any kind of real validation that Gods were real and interacting both directly and indirectly with the world.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on March 31, 2017, 09:47:20 pm
It just wasn't until TAE that we got any kind of real validation that Gods were real and interacting both directly and indirectly with the world.

Oh, I knew before that. When, Cnaüir was inhabited by Gilgoal.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: themerchant on April 01, 2017, 02:27:46 pm
There are several things about Kel that don't jive with the theory.

He only spies on the WLW out of something to do and in observing him gets obsessed.

The voice reminds them they have the "Strength" not the "Grace" which are two different things.

When Kel goes to esme room and isn't seen, the text explicitly states it's because of the limits of esmenet not because Kel. Something like "couldn't see him for limits all of her own". As opposed to him being invisible now.

Kel is being played by Ajokli , he thinks he's doing his own thing then at last second the robes slip off and he is anguished. He has this internal monologue about children being tricked by the same stories. What happens to him is what happens to the children he thinks of. The opposite of what he thought would happen happened.

I can't help feeling Kellhus involvement somewhere. He constructed the whole "shadow palace" and kept it secret from everyone bar esme. It's whole purpose in the books is to conceal Kel from Maithanet and then as a vehicle to follow the WLW around. This is all tied up in his "love" for his mother. Which is actually a rationalization of something hidden from him according to inrilaitas(sp?). Which might be some sort of compulsion set upon him by Kellhus.  He saves his father despite hating him. Also seems to have information from Kellhus about keeping a secret, or he made it up to freak out the guard he was going to kill and eat.

Maybe Kellhus and Ajokli in cahoots.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 05, 2017, 12:39:32 pm
Cuttlefish, where does Koringhus equate the JE with the Absolute?

ETA: when I'm wrong, I have no problem saying as much. So I went reading through the Koringhus chapters where he apprehended the JE and came across this.


Quote
This, Sister … This is why I bare my throat to the blade of your judgment. This is why I would make myself your slave. For short of death, you, Anasûrimbor Mimara, wife-daughter of Anasûrimbor Kellhus, who is also my father … you, Sister, are the Shortest Path. The Absolute dwells within your Gaze. You … a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang. Thus do I kneel before it, awaiting, accepting, death or illumination—it does not matter which … So long as I am at last known.

MSJ, in my opinion, that declaration from Koringhus is going to turn out to be a critical statement on Earwan reality.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 05, 2017, 11:17:08 pm
MSJ, in my opinion, that declaration from Koringhus is going to turn out to be a critical statement on Earwan reality.

Yes, it seems HIGHLY likely. Bakker kept saying to all the feminists he fought with ages ago, to just watch and see, he wasn't finished.

I can see two different things happening. She has the ability to save souls. Which while it does seem that's what happened with Koringhus, it's not 100% positive. Or, that a là H's theory that she will answer the No-God's questions, and that will be it's undoing. Either way, I think everything turns on the heels of Mimara. And, man, wouldnt that put a rod up the asses of all those who persucuted our Holy RSB?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2017, 01:36:09 pm
Cuttlefish, where does Koringhus equate the JE with the Absolute?

ETA: when I'm wrong, I have no problem saying as much. So I went reading through the Koringhus chapters where he apprehended the JE and came across this.


Quote
This, Sister … This is why I bare my throat to the blade of your judgment. This is why I would make myself your slave. For short of death, you, Anasûrimbor Mimara, wife-daughter of Anasûrimbor Kellhus, who is also my father … you, Sister, are the Shortest Path. The Absolute dwells within your Gaze. You … a frail, worldborn slip, heavy with child, chased across the throw of kings and nations, you are the Nail of the World, the hook from which all things hang. Thus do I kneel before it, awaiting, accepting, death or illumination—it does not matter which … So long as I am at last known.

MSJ, in my opinion, that declaration from Koringhus is going to turn out to be a critical statement on Earwan reality.

100% agree with this.



... And, man, wouldn't that put a rod up the asses of all those who persecuted our Holy RSB?

It really wouldn't though, and that's the problem. Most complaints of that nature are rooted in specific instances, not overarching plot development and storytelling. Anyone can still point to any one book, or one scene, and say "yeah but look, this is offensive to me". It doesn't matter what the offense even is, what group or sensibility is offended. Actual evidence to the contrary is irrelevant.

Bakker recently had a great exchange with someone on his blog. What it boiled down to was that the point of TSA is to offend, but not for the sake of offence alone. His hope is that the people who are offended will self reflect, and realize that they are so offended because the books are reflecting some piece of themselves that they don't like. The point is that all in-group mindsets are necessarily harmful:

Exchange of Hanalulu and Bakker (https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/april-fools-update/#comments) - Sorry couldn't figure out how ot link the comment directly
Quote
The point of my books is to demonstrate how delusion drives the atrocities we commit. The point of my books is to convince people to step out of all our ancient mindsets, to see all instances of US versus THEM as the suicidal tendencies they in fact are

The biggest problem with that is most people won't or can't self reflect, so instead of getting to the end goal, which would be solidarity and breaking down walls, the cycle continues.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2017, 02:13:13 pm
Yes, I read that. And, like you posted, It was one I could actually understand. And, I found it it enlightening, both the post and people's reaction to the post.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 02:27:25 pm
Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 06, 2017, 02:53:03 pm
Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?
Why's that? Is she your least favorite character?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 06, 2017, 08:43:40 pm
Did I mention that I don't care for Mimara, at all?
Why's that? Is she your least favorite character?

I found her a bit tedious to read, and couldn't find anything to like about her. Characters who reach relevance in the world of Earwa all have things that justify their relevance - and usually, it's intellect. With Mimara, she is just handed a method to play a part in the story, as if a character like her absolutely needed to be in the story. I guess it's kind of like that with Sorweel as well, but him I liked a lot, because he is arguably the most human, the most normal guy in the whole series. That doesn't usually make for an interesting character, but in a setting where everyone is a philosopher-king, it's interesting to have a guy who just misses his dead parents, falls for a girl who doesn't care for him, and is trying to make sense of things beyond his control.

 I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 06, 2017, 09:05:39 pm
But, that's not the case. The Judging Eye was the first book of this series. This series is separate from PoN in a sense. So, the whole premise of it being thrown into the plot out of nowhere is bogus. It's the central theme of TAE, a way to show us damnation, and ultimately the metaphysics of the world. Mimara was even introduced in PoN and I had the feeling that should would pop up later. And, imo, she is a extremely dynamic character, to say the least.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Madness on April 07, 2017, 01:15:25 am
I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

Not here or there in this conversational context but I actually find this to be one of the truly remarkably things about Bakker's work. I've made the argument that every new book in the series has some such 'layer of revelation' therein. To me, it's impressive how much Bakker layered into the books from TDTCB onward, especially given how I think he's sharpened his writer's voice over the intervening years.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: themerchant on April 07, 2017, 03:06:56 am
I thought Mimara got the judging eye cause Bakker was following the branches of knowledge assigned in the bible, females have intuitive knowledge and males another type which I can't remember at the moment.

Not sure of Judging eye is mentioned in the first series, or it's just the world soul concept.

Although i can remember some comment about modern fantasy and someone saying if the Lord of Rings was written now we'd not even know about the ring till the final chapters, and I think there is some truth to that certainly.

I remember reading very early on that Bakker was trying to do a metaphysical whodunnit so that tempers my want for more information.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2017, 12:44:15 pm
I found her a bit tedious to read, and couldn't find anything to like about her. Characters who reach relevance in the world of Earwa all have things that justify their relevance - and usually, it's intellect. With Mimara, she is just handed a method to play a part in the story, as if a character like her absolutely needed to be in the story. I guess it's kind of like that with Sorweel as well, but him I liked a lot, because he is arguably the most human, the most normal guy in the whole series. That doesn't usually make for an interesting character, but in a setting where everyone is a philosopher-king, it's interesting to have a guy who just misses his dead parents, falls for a girl who doesn't care for him, and is trying to make sense of things beyond his control.

 I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

Awesome, thanks for the response - I can see where you're coming from, and that's a pretty well reasoned criticism. I'm in way too deep at this point to properly criticise the books, so I'm always glad to hear what other people think about it.

The Judging Eye (TJE) was definitely dropped on us in the second trilogy, and I can understand why that would be irritating to some. But, is it really different than any of the other revelations somehow? The Aspect Emperor (TAE) really does this kind of thing a lot. TJE for one, but also the 'holy' chorae, or physical manifestations of Gods like the Narindar/Yatwer/etc.? Through TGO we get a lot more, the Nuke thing, the Tall, etc. Those were all really big reveals to me.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just trying to figure out what makes TJE especially irritating.



Thinking on it, if you find TJE an irritating plot device, your dislike of Mimara as a whole makes a lot of sense. I think it adds an interesting dimension to her character, but without it, she would be very frustrating to follow. You mention Sorweel, which is a great comparison, but while Sorweel has been cowed by his interactions with the supernatural and somehow humanized, Mimara has become this  prophet character which makes her more frustrating.
Its similar to how I feel about Esmi. Her whole doddering mother / Empress dichotome seems a little contrived to me. I don't like reading her POVs because she's a stressed wreck of a human - and while its not really her fault, I still don't like it.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 07, 2017, 03:10:36 pm

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

I sympathize with your feelings of frustration over the introduction of "game-changing" concepts, but I think in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts. It's important to consider that in a realistic sub-creation such as Eärwa, the knowledge of the characters is limited. Discoveries are made. Events occur. At the beginning of PoN, only the Mandate believe that the Consult still exists.

Imho, TUC will blow our minds with game-changing concepts.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 07, 2017, 05:39:08 pm
in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts.

IMO it really comes down to two distinct pieces.
One, people already complain about TDTCB a difficult hurdle. That whole book is almost entirely world-building, which slows it down considerably, and people struggle to keep up. Beyond that, Bakker then bakes in the world-building as much as possible throughout, so the series just grows in grows. Any more shoved into TDTCB and no one would finish it ;)

Two, the slow drip of information is a massive part of the story. The ignorance and lack of knowledge of all the characters makes the world seem more real - at least to me. You have to read the whole thing before you know most of whats going on, and I suspect even after that there will be plenty that is left shrouded. The story just isn't built to give you all the information up front, and I think its better for that.

If that's bothersome, there's no getting around it.  I think there's going to be a satisfying reward at the end of the road for those that make it.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on April 07, 2017, 06:03:39 pm
in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts.

IMO it really comes down to two distinct pieces.
One, people already complain about TDTCB a difficult hurdle. That whole book is almost entirely world-building, which slows it down considerably, and people struggle to keep up. Beyond that, Bakker then bakes in the world-building as much as possible throughout, so the series just grows in grows. Any more shoved into TDTCB and no one would finish it ;)

Two, the slow drip of information is a massive part of the story. The ignorance and lack of knowledge of all the characters makes the world seem more real - at least to me. You have to read the whole thing before you know most of whats going on, and I suspect even after that there will be plenty that is left shrouded. The story just isn't built to give you all the information up front, and I think its better for that.

If that's bothersome, there's no getting around it.  I think there's going to be a satisfying reward at the end of the road for those that make it.



I couldn't agree more, W. Add to your observations the unreliability of the various POV's, and you're left with a stew of confusion and authorial misdirection.

Myself, I find TDTCB the easiest read, since the world-building is done in comparatively broad strokes. But that just indicates how difficult I find the following books. 
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: geoffrobro on April 07, 2017, 07:23:46 pm
At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 07, 2017, 08:15:56 pm
At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.

Well, she sees herself as holy and we certainly know that isn't how she views herself. What sucks about equating damnation and the JE is all the people that she is around are damned and it's a small sample size of scalpers, wizards and ancient Nonman. Another example would be the chorae. When she sees it through the Eye it is pure and holy. When she looks at it sans Eye, it's a dark pit of a thing (I am obviously paraphrasing). Yes, there is a chance that her worldview effects the Eye. But, as the series goes on, I find it more and more unlikely.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: geoffrobro on April 07, 2017, 08:57:13 pm
At first I thought you guys were talking about THE the concept not the book.
Mimara is a wreak of a person and the irritation to me personally when reading her is like listening to a friend shit in their parents bcuz they couldn't get their way.
In various parts in the series it's hinted that the witness is what makes the crime, not the action. By that logic mimara may be the greatest threat to existence bcuz she see everything to be damned.
And bcuz of her life struggles and her "placement" in life she has been setup to view the world in a Nansur perspective.
Most things she has deemed damned is bcuz of her Nansur heritages ideas. What Nansur God looks from behind her eyes.

Well, she sees herself as holy and we certainly know that isn't how she views herself. What sucks about equating damnation and the JE is all the people that she is around are damned and it's a small sample size of scalpers, wizards and ancient Nonman. Another example would be the chorae. When she sees it through the Eye it is pure and holy. When she looks at it sans Eye, it's a dark pit of a thing (I am obviously paraphrasing). Yes, there is a chance that her worldview effects the Eye. But, as the series goes on, I find it more and more unlikely.

But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 07, 2017, 10:10:48 pm
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

Well, you could very well be right and I won't be one to claim I know what's what on Earwa metaphysically. But, if she views a chorae as something empty, a dark pit without the Eye, I'm taking that as her view. Doesn't matter what she's been told, to me. She has her own thoughts. Using your same logic, she is a woman, and also a whore. Which, going by Nansur worldviews are next to Sorcerors as being most damned. She has also been told this her whole life. So, why wouldn't this same hold true when she sees herself with the JE? That's where that falls apart.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2017, 01:09:15 pm
Mimara seeing herself as holy was probably done intentionally to combat this very argument. Without that piece of information, there's not much to defend the idea that TJE is objective in some way.

But given her self loathing, self hatred, upbringing, and teaching of the church, she is literally the last person who would see herself as Holy. She is even disgusted,  or at least concerned, when she sees her image.

What's all this talk about normal people thinking Chorae being holy? They were derived from the Aporos, which is not just sorcery but Nonmen exclusive, and produced by the Inchoroi. They don't exactly have a lineage for holiness.
The thousand temples uses them to kill sorcerers, so they are a useful tool. 'Tears of God' , yeah, but they are still blasphemous objects. If people in the three seas think they are holy objects, I've definetly forgotten any references to that effect.
Objects of enourmous importance, vastly expensive to obtain, and extremely useful to killing schoolmen, but holy?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 01:14:06 pm
Well, I don't think that what anyone thinks has an effect on the JE. It's used as an objective viewpoint on morality in Earwa. So, the notion that what Mimara thinks means that's what the JE will see is a non-starter, for me. That's what I was arguing about.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2017, 01:16:47 pm
I agree with you there.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 02:26:18 pm
I agree with you there.

Ok, bear with me here. So, if we take the JE as an objective viewpoint on morality and the JE see the chorae as holy, then they are right? I mean, what if that's why the Nonmen shut down the Apropos? It kills sorcerers and the JE (assuming it's the viewpoint of the God) sees sorcerers as damned, because they are speaking with the Gods voice, altering reality so to say. And, we know that why the Nonmen built Mansions underground was to hide from the Gods. The chorae were a one way ticket to damnation.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2017, 03:41:50 pm
Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: geoffrobro on April 08, 2017, 03:47:41 pm
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

Well, you could very well be right and I won't be one to claim I know what's what on Earwa metaphysically. But, if she views a chorae as something empty, a dark pit without the Eye, I'm taking that as her view. Doesn't matter what she's been told, to me. She has her own thoughts. Using your same logic, she is a woman, and also a whore. Which, going by Nansur worldviews are next to Sorcerors as being most damned. She has also been told this her whole life. So, why wouldn't this same hold true when she sees herself with the JE? That's where that falls apart.
No that's not where it falls apart, that's the point. Based on everything she's seen and known she should be damned but for some reason isn't. A pregnant crackhead looks into her reflection and sees she's the only holy person she's met.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.
The common man thinks chorae are holy and sacred. Sorcerers know where they came from but during The PON they were commonly referred to as holy trinkets.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2017, 04:07:58 pm
The common man thinks chorae are holy and sacred. Sorcerers know where they came from but during The PON they were commonly referred to as holy trinkets.

Fair enough. That answers my question :)
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 04:10:17 pm
Geoffrobro, but that goes against your argument. Your saying, what I'm assuming, is that her worldview reflects what the Judging Eye sees and wether it's damned or not. You gave examples for why everyone was damned that she sees with the Eye. But, if that's the case, she would be damned also. Her worldview has nothing to do with what the JE shows her.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.

I didn't misunderstand you. I was just trying to find a reason why Mimara would see the chorae as holy through the JE, is all. I also assume the JE is the view of the God and shows us the objective morality of Earwa. So Mimara and her worldview and what she's been taught means ABSOLUTELY nothing to what the JE shows her and us.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 08, 2017, 04:54:48 pm
Well, holy chorae fit into the worldbuilding very well.

God finds sorcery anathema - so schoolmen are damned.
Chorae's sole purpose is to undo the wrongs wrought from sorcery. They do gods work - therefore holy.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 05:02:26 pm
Well, holy chorae fit into the worldbuilding very well.

God finds sorcery anathema - so schoolmen are damned.
Chorae's sole purpose is to undo the wrongs wrought from sorcery. They do gods work - therefore holy.

I noticed in a previous post, you didn't say God. Rather, the diety the has most power on the Outside. See, I get very confused when talking about the God vs the 100. I recognize the difference, the 100 are shards of the God, principles you might say. ;) 

But, when Kellhus explains the God to Proyas, I am assuming he is talking about the 100. Because, even when Kellhus talks to whoever in his dreams under the tree, whoever says that he is trying to drive the God forth. I guess in order to war with him. So, it's all rather confusing to me.

ETA: it's probably Kellhus who is under that tree, just his version of himself in the Outside. But, I always hold out hope it might be Moe.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: themerchant on April 08, 2017, 06:07:14 pm
tears of god=chorae
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 07:46:32 pm
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

This what I thought your argument was for. You say the most holy person she seen is a Prince of Hell. I assumed Cnaüir or Captain...
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: geoffrobro on April 08, 2017, 08:15:33 pm
Geoffrobro, but that goes against your argument. Your saying, what I'm assuming, is that her worldview reflects what the Judging Eye sees and wether it's damned or not. You gave examples for why everyone was damned that she sees with the Eye. But, if that's the case, she would be damned also. Her worldview has nothing to do with what the JE shows her.

Oh, no, you misunderstood.

I was just wondering who other than Mimara thinks that the chorae are holy.

I'm in the camp that thinks TJE shows the true world, or at the very least shows the true world as it exists for the most powerful/controlling deity that exists in part or in whole in the outside.

I didn't misunderstand you. I was just trying to find a reason why Mimara would see the chorae as holy through the JE, is all. I also assume the JE is the view of the God and shows us the objective morality of Earwa. So Mimara and her worldview and what she's been taught means ABSOLUTELY nothing to what the JE shows her and us.
But that's my point, why is she the exception to her own rule.
But we know for a fact chorae aren't holy objects. She sees it as holy bcuz that is what she has been told all her life. Sorcerers are damned cuz she's been told that all her life by Anoini. The people most scared of sorcery. She has been told the Scylvendi are damned bcuz she grew up in the nasurium where they are the meaning of evil. Even though she technically has met the most "holy" person, a man who has a guaranteed spot in the outside. A prince of hell.

This what I thought your argument was for. You say the most holy person she seen is a Prince of Hell. I assumed Cnaüir or Captain...

Chauiir. Mimara says that he will be a prince in hell, guaranteeing a spot in the outside. And from what kellhus has seen that may make you a chiphang (which is what I think kellhus saw spit and eat that baby in the outside), to me that means your holy, you've been blessed by the god in their sick way. Cnauir has been blessed by the God of war, many people have seen it. Shouldn't more of the People of war be blessed by the god of war. These are his people, they may not worship him in name but they do in spirit. How can they all be damned because of "being Scylvendi"? That is something a Nasur would think and believe. So why does the God of God believe such?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 08, 2017, 08:39:06 pm
But that's my point, why is she the exception to her own rule.

Because, it's not her rule?
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 09, 2017, 08:48:33 pm
Gotta say that I'm totally lost at this point. Geoffrobro, I don't understand your position at all.

What do you mean by Holy?
How do you know chorae aren't Holy?
Why is a prince of Hell Holy?

You seem to be using damnation and holy as interchangable, which I think is not only confusing but a big mistake.

At least we can agree that Mimara sees Mimara and Cnaiur very differently. Are they both the same kind of holy?

Your argument seems to be that Mimara see what she wants to see, or that she sees what she has been told growing up. Yes?

But, if that is the case, why does she see herself of Good, with silver haloes? She says herself that she is holy. Everything about her life leads her to believe she is damned, and she is surprised and disgusted that TJE shows that she is good and holy.

That one fact alone really destroys that entire line of reasoning.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: geoffrobro on April 10, 2017, 08:00:12 pm
I need to seriously think this thru and post. I look back and I'm not making sense and I'm posting at work on my phone. But my point started with why is it that mimara's customs and culture coincide with the eye?
I never thought of any religion to be 100% true but apparently inrithism is and did inri have it? This 2000 year old religion just spit out it's proof of being real. I'm sorry guys I do need to collect my thoughts
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Cuttlefish on April 10, 2017, 08:54:51 pm

I can't say I care much for the concept of the Judging Eye, either. This is just my general preference, but I don't like it when some new, game-changing concept is introduced every once in a while, to a series. I think it's best when the general rules of the setting are laid out early on, and any progression on them is gradual as opposed to "and here's this wholly new thing!" What guarantee is there that the next book won't introduce some new, incredibly weird game-changing concept that takes the story in a wholly different direction?

I sympathize with your feelings of frustration over the introduction of "game-changing" concepts, but I think in an incredibly dense world- building series such as TSA, part of the narrative arc has to include the introduction of such concepts. It's important to consider that in a realistic sub-creation such as Eärwa, the knowledge of the characters is limited. Discoveries are made. Events occur. At the beginning of PoN, only the Mandate believe that the Consult still exists.

Imho, TUC will blow our minds with game-changing concepts.

I realize that, and that's only natural. But I feel like the concepts that will be introduced will mostly resolve or continue the plot threads laid out early on, such as the nature of No-God.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: MSJ on April 10, 2017, 09:48:18 pm
I need to seriously think this thru and post. I look back and I'm not making sense and I'm posting at work on my phone. But my point started with why is it that mimara's customs and culture coincide with the eye?
I never thought of any religion to be 100% true but apparently inrithism is and did inri have it? This 2000 year old religion just spit out it's proof of being real. I'm sorry guys I do need to collect my thoughts

No, Inrithism isn't right. It's they who preach that whores are damned.

I'd say that the easiest way to explain this is that, the JE is a objective view on morality of Earwa. Like how Mimara says that pigs are damned and snakes are holy. The God  (I'm not sure that this is the God of Gods or an entirely different entity) is who has the viewpoint from the JE, it has ZERO to do with what Mimara thinks. Remember, whoever Kellhus speaks to in the Visions under the Tree, says he is warring with the God. But, it sleeps, and he is trying to drive him forth to War.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Francis Buck on April 11, 2017, 03:20:54 am
I'd also point out that, as of yet, we haven't seen Mimara observe anything really potentially "challenging" to the status quo other than I guess the Dunyain, sort of. Furthermore, "holiness" may only be linked with objective morality within Earwa -- I mean, that's obviously true, but I'm suggesting it is perhaps the case to an extent greater than what one would assume at first blush. For example, what is it about about pigs that make them LITERALLY less holy, in a by-the-book-definition of "holiness", than snakes? Sure, pigs are gross for rolling around in the filth...but then snakes spend their lives crawling across the ground in filth, so I don't think the reasons are that straight forward or easy.

Pigs are, however, known for their intelligence, and I'm beginning to believe that "intelligence" (very broadly speaking, as in a sort of gradient scale of sentience) may be one of the indicators for holiness in Earwa. The more ignorant you are, the more you are "at one with the world", or God. Sentience itself is a divergence, since to be sentient in Earwa is seemingly the same as being "ensouled" or close to it. So mere Being for a sentient creature is a form of unholiness.

Which would make something like the Sranc about as holy as a living thing can get.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on April 11, 2017, 01:56:48 pm
That idea falls into the same trap that we discussed earlier.

Mimara is, apparently, holy. If anything, she is the most knowledgeable person in the Three Seas - she can actually see the morality of the world. She also had a pretty good education for a few years at the Palace, and would have been privy to a lot more mundane knowledge than most people.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Francis Buck on April 30, 2017, 04:53:14 am
That idea falls into the same trap that we discussed earlier.

Mimara is, apparently, holy. If anything, she is the most knowledgeable person in the Three Seas - she can actually see the morality of the world. She also had a pretty good education for a few years at the Palace, and would have been privy to a lot more mundane knowledge than most people.

This is sort of my point (which I didn't make very clear and in fact am not sure how to do so), but using the word "intelligence" or even "sentience" as I did is off the mark. A better word, perhaps, is "ignorance".

As you said, Mimara is not unintelligent, and by all means at this stage she appears to be quite comfortably the most powerful individual in all of Earwa, with the possible exception of Kellhus. Even Cnaiur is cowed by her, not to mention Koringhus.

My point is, where does Mimara's "knowledge" come from? Is it really capital-K knowledge, or is it intuition? From the very beginning of TJE and throughout TAE, Mimara's actions are frequently described as being motivated by whim, or instinct, or whatever. She has plenty of self-reflection, but there are things that Mimara just sort of knows, like that "Soma was not a man".

If you put Kellhus on one end of this spectrum, and Mimara on the opposite, it sort of makes my idea (true or not) more clear. Kellhus relies on nothing but knowledge, cold hard facts, laws, etc. in order to do what he does. Mimara goes on gut instinct. Just like how the Dunyain "reached for infinity and the sranc reached for zero", Mimara and Kellhus too sit on opposing ends of this spectrum (though it's murky, since Kellhus seems slid closer to the middle post-Umiaki, and obviously Mimara isn't as mindless as a sranc, for as I mentioned she does plenty of self-reflection and is blatantly an intelligent person).

I don't think this dichotomy between Mimara and Kellhus is a coincidence. One is male, the other female. One is light in color, the other dark. And of course, only Kellhus and Mimara are seen with Halos, except while just about everyone can see Kellhus's haloes (golden like the sun), only Mimara has seen her own (silver like the moon).

Though Koringhus does glimpse the "black ring" of the Judging Eye, and I'm not sure if this is the same as the silver halo Mimara sees herself with (I lean toward them being separate phenomena -- the black ring I think belongs to her baby rather than herself, but who knows).

TL;DR - There is a kind of spectrum to the metaphysics of Earwa, with The Darkness (That Comes Before) on one end, and the Light (That Blinds) on the other. Kellhus, represents the Light, Mimara the Dark.

As to "which side is right"...I don't think we'll get a conclusive answer to this since both ends seem to have benefits and downsides. I think going too far into either extreme is likely to be problematic. The Boy-Survivor, son of Koringhus, strikes me as being a vaguely Buddha-like "middle-path" scenario. Having seen both extremes (Dunyain & Sranc), he knows that both end in death and destruction. 

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Walter on May 01, 2017, 02:44:34 pm
In terms of damnation, stuff we know:

Saubon was damned after all, despite being the most fervent of the Zaodunyani.
The Captain, another pious Zaodunyani was also damned when Mimara looked at him with the Judging Eye.

So it looks like Kellhus-ism, or whatever we want to call the belief system that Saubon and Lord Kosoter shared, does not guide you to salvation.

Similarly, Mimara's Gaze has confirmed that the Dunyain's blasphemous quest to usurp the Absolute has rendered them utterly damned.

 The other 3 belief systems that might save (which Mimara hasn't confirmed as doomed) one seem to be:
1: Orthodox Inrithism.  This is basically praising the strongest Ciphrangs and hoping that they protect your soul after you die.  This is what Psatma's talking about when she says that Yatwer will honor those who Give.

I tend to be skeptical as to this working.  The one chapter opener about the sighs in heaven and the screams in hell being the same strikes me as a condemnation of this view.  I think Yatwer/Gilgaol eat their most fervent worshipers just like the lesser Ciphrangs eat the nonbelievers.

2: Fanimry:  The Fanim worship the sum of the Gods, Kellhus's god-shaped-soul, but rendered Outside rather than Inside.  Placing their faith in this abstract 'Solitary God' rather than any particular Ciphrang.

It doesn't feel like this works either.  Fanim seem like basically immature Dunyain.  Presumably their souls are set upon by the Ciphrangs when they die.

3: Ancestor Worship:  Likaro's people trust their revered ancestors to intercede with the Hundred, thereby preserving their souls.  It feels like in order for that to work their ancestors would have to have some kind of pull on the Outside, but everyone outside seems to be being eaten by Ciphrangs. 

I'm not super enthused about this prospect either.

My take on the best course of action for a native of Earwa is to either:
A: be a fervent Orthodox devotee of one particular God (hope Pstama's right that the Hundred cherish their most fervent supporters)
B: Be an absolute maniac like Cnaiur and become a Ciphrang on death.

Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: profgrape on May 01, 2017, 03:28:55 pm
In terms of damnation, stuff we know:

Saubon was damned after all, despite being the most fervent of the Zaodunyani.
The Captain, another pious Zaodunyani was also damned when Mimara looked at him with the Judging Eye.

So it looks like Kellhus-ism, or whatever we want to call the belief system that Saubon and Lord Kosoter shared, does not guide you to salvation.

Similarly, Mimara's Gaze has confirmed that the Dunyain's blasphemous quest to usurp the Absolute has rendered them utterly damned.

 The other 3 belief systems that might save (which Mimara hasn't confirmed as doomed) one seem to be:
1: Orthodox Inrithism.  This is basically praising the strongest Ciphrangs and hoping that they protect your soul after you die.  This is what Psatma's talking about when she says that Yatwer will honor those who Give.

I tend to be skeptical as to this working.  The one chapter opener about the sighs in heaven and the screams in hell being the same strikes me as a condemnation of this view.  I think Yatwer/Gilgaol eat their most fervent worshipers just like the lesser Ciphrangs eat the nonbelievers.

2: Fanimry:  The Fanim worship the sum of the Gods, Kellhus's god-shaped-soul, but rendered Outside rather than Inside.  Placing their faith in this abstract 'Solitary God' rather than any particular Ciphrang.

It doesn't feel like this works either.  Fanim seem like basically immature Dunyain.  Presumably their souls are set upon by the Ciphrangs when they die.

3: Ancestor Worship:  Likaro's people trust their revered ancestors to intercede with the Hundred, thereby preserving their souls.  It feels like in order for that to work their ancestors would have to have some kind of pull on the Outside, but everyone outside seems to be being eaten by Ciphrangs. 

I'm not super enthused about this prospect either.

My take on the best course of action for a native of Earwa is to either:
A: be a fervent Orthodox devotee of one particular God (hope Pstama's right that the Hundred cherish their most fervent supporters)
B: Be an absolute maniac like Cnaiur and become a Ciphrang on death.



I vote for B.  The system is comprised of wolves and sheep.   No matter what the sheep do, they're going to get eaten.  So the best thing is to be a wolf.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on May 01, 2017, 03:50:36 pm
You left out the Nonmen, who worship oblivion in hopes of avoiding the Gods themselves and thus securing everlasting peace - in the form of not-being-tortured-for-all-eternity.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: profgrape on May 01, 2017, 03:56:07 pm
You left out the Nonmen, who worship oblivion in hopes of avoiding the Gods themselves and thus securing everlasting peace - in the form of not-being-tortured-for-all-eternity.
Aurang certainly didn't think much of this approach.  From TFS:

Quote
Eyes like bladders of ink, each reflecting the tripods across their shining curve. The fluting of gill-tissues along the neck. “You worship the spaces between the Gods…

“Yes.”

A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: Wilshire on May 01, 2017, 06:40:22 pm
Of course not. If they think/know the IF shows the truth, and they have seen Nonmen in it, there's no reason for them to think that whatever the Nonmen are doing is working.

I'm just pointing out that there's another POV ;) .

There's also the Scylvendi - whatever their beliefs are.
Title: Re: In the light of added knowledge, a few thoughts
Post by: H on May 02, 2017, 10:23:07 am
Of course not. If they think/know the IF shows the truth, and they have seen Nonmen in it, there's no reason for them to think that whatever the Nonmen are doing is working.

Of course Aurang thinks very little of the approach, because it is a chancy thing:

Quote
“But the Hells—we do care for them. The paths to Oblivion are few—as tight as the arrow’s notch, Emilidis would say. Tell me, Son of Harweel, who is to decide when these wretches should hazard damnation?”

Having seen what awaits via the Inverse Fire, I can see why Aurang wants to broker no chance of damnation.