Titirga. A future role to play? **False Sun Spoilers**

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SilentRoamer

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« on: August 02, 2014, 12:09:34 am »
Ok so does anyone think that Titirga has any future role to play in the series?

I think it's Garet who has a theory that Meppa=Titirga?

Maybe TSTSNBN is Returnof Titirgaand hence Bakker doesn't want to ruin his return? lol

What say all?

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 12:05:18 pm »
Probably not.  Would be odd to include a character from a separate short story (set 2000 years before) who was never even mentioned in the main narrative.
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 03:08:12 am »
I think Titirga will play a future role in the audience's understanding of the greater story/world/metaphysics..

Now, Titirga is a serious contender for my top five favorite characters from the series, and that's from a single appearance in a short story, compared to characters we've followed over five full-length novels. I just think his execution is absolutely flawless. The False Sun's protagonist is really Shaeonanra, but as readers of the series we know too much of him to perceive the man as "good". This is Shauriatas, the Grandmaster of the Consult, the most evil fucks imaginable. Titirga, on the other hand, is presented in a largely positive sense. He's intelligent, charming, pragmatic, and ultimately just kinda badass. He's a Gnostic sorcerer, which we associate with the Mandate and Seswatha, and the Mandate are a rather sympathetic faction considering the moral grayness of the series. However, in terms of the structure of TFS itself, Titirga is really the antagonist. But through the prose, the character is described with such clarity and imbued with a sense of total badassery (the references to him seeming like a stone, something impermeable, almost immortal), that the audience is still held in suspense even after fucking Aurang rolls in. Imagine never seeing an Inchoroi in your entire life, nothing even remotely like it, only for one to stroll up out of nowhere, possessing a ridiculously deep Mark.

Titirga's response to this is a dick joke.

Aside from fanboying over Titirga, my ultimate point is that, no, I don't think he has a future role to play in the sense of still being alive in some fashion, be it physically or spiritually or whatever. I think he's dead and gone. The protagonist Shae (and kinda Aurang) defeat the antagonist Titiriga. However, I do think the character of Titiriga itself, beyond his functionary role in the story mechanics of TFS, is a very important piece to a puzzle that we do not yet possess all the pieces to. But once we do, Titiriga and his characterization (particularly his history of blindness, the "scrubbed" look of his Mark -- which should be intensely ugly, considering his power -- and the whole "grasping of words and meanings that should not be grasped" thing) will all be very relevant. To be honest, as much as I love the character, I kind of like him as being a one-off thing.

And as a nerdanel for the fuck of it: I believe that Titirga possessed, to some degree, both the Meta-Gnosis and the Psukhe, and that this combination of magics will become pivotal to Kellhus's later plans, whatever they are (I'm convinced he will learn the Psukhe eventually, if he hasn't already...another reason we haven't seen his Mark?).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:11:44 am by Francis Buck »

Triskele

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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 05:53:49 pm »
Probably not.  Would be odd to include a character from a separate short story (set 2000 years before) who was never even mentioned in the main narrative.

I agree that it would be odd, and yet as I read The False Sun I couldn't help but feel that we must be getting something relevant for the whole series beyond just the sneak peak at the Consult.  And I'd agree with Francis that perhaps it's something about Titirga's vaguely mentioned powers like having a different mark and grasping things that should not be grasped.  Or his background at having been blind.

Shit, have we talked about how he regained his sight?  I don't recall, but it seems like he must have, right?  What happens if one grasps the Psukhe while blind but recovers one's sight?  Can they still access it from their recollection of what it had been like?

I also confess to contemplating that after the trap in False Sun that they Consult somehow preserved Titirga to make him into the No-God, but I have no actual working theory to explain this.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 06:23:12 pm »
I feel like Titirga's meeting with Shae was a precursor to Kellhus' meeting with the Consult.  Titirga was considered the most powerful insinger of his day, just as Kellhus is considered the most powerful of the current day.  Titirga seriously underestimated Shae, and I think Kel has, too.  TUC will be all about the Aspect-Emperor getting his ass handed to him by the Consult, IMO.  It's theory (Kellhus) vs. experience (Consult).  The Consult are going to take him back to school.  Hard.  That was the lesson of Titirga.  Prediction made.   ;)
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Aural

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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 09:20:34 am »
It might be that the real reason Seswatha waged war against the Consult was to avenge Titirga. In Eleazaras fashion.

Bolivar

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 05:35:37 pm »
I don't think the character will come back but the significance of what happened in the False Sun might have further implications beyond introducing a mangeacca POV and shedding light on the early days. I assume there was something incredibly important they absolutely needed to warrant the risk of deceiving Titirga. The False Sun itself might tie somehow into the Inchoroi "weapons of light" which were reportedly depleted after the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

Francis Buck

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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 08:47:35 pm »
Interesting point about the False Sun itself being pivotal. Maybe the Ancient North and/or the Sohonc (and possibly, as-yet-to-be-revealed, the Nonmen...and maybe even the Dunyain) had began picking away at the very basics of more advanced technology (I.E. early Tekne), and this was viewed by the Consult as a threat. The biggest advantage the Consult have is the Tekne. It gave them their armies, their weapons, the No-God, the Heron Spear, and probably the Inverse Fire. If the enemy were to obtain such power, or even grasp the base tenets of it (which is just the Scientific Method, really), then the Consult could lose their advantage.

Hell, the Tekne was really the only thing that let the Consult achieve ANYTHING so far, and they still got stomped by the Quya. Now the Consult has both...and that's obviously key, since the capability of magic on Earwa is what allowed the Consult to create the No-God in the first place. 

mrganondorf

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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 11:42:08 pm »
@ SilentRoamer - I don't think he has a role to play in the main series, but I really hope Bakker does more with him in other Atrocity Tales.  To me, he seems to be present to shed light on the Consult, in the False Sun, and not much else.  Leave it to Bakker to introduce and kill off a beloved character right away.  :(

@ Francis Buck - That's an awesome interpretation--I have to agree with you in the sense that I think Titirga gives/will give the more interested more.  Like Silmarillion for Tolkien geeks.

@ Triskele - Goddamnit, I never thought about his regaining sight as significant, but the whole thing could be a goddamn set up.  Fuck!

@ Somnambulist - I like that reading…but I think they'll both have tricks up their sleeves for each other.  Both sides anticipating anticipations, wheels within wheels.

@ Ashtinahgma - WOW  It's 1000 years later tho, init?


Cüréthañ

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 03:33:10 am »
I think Titirga was conceived as a overpowered sorcerer - someone that could destroy the grandmaster of the Mangeacca and the Inchie brothers.
Even so, he is also equipped with an artifact that presumably empowers him even more. 
His character's power is primarily set-up for this window into the early machinations of the Consult and how Meketrig and Shae pierced the barricades.
Thus the lure and triggering of the trap, elements of the story that underscore Shaeonanra's subtle and devious intelligence. 

Bakker gives us a subtle clue beyond the mere efficacy of chorae on the nature of sorcery (Titirga's powers are a nod to the interconnected nature of the psukhe, gnosis and anagogic sorcery), at the same time as establishing why the newly forged consult fear this man and must remove him from the Benjuka plate.

Beyond the extra worldbuilding, I doubt it is any more relevant than Four Relevations.

Also, False Sun opens in 1119 (Year of the Tusk) - whilst Seswatha lived 2089-2168.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 03:37:30 am by Cüréthañ »
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 04:01:07 pm »
Could you say more about this?

Quote
Bakker gives us a subtle clue beyond the mere efficacy of chorae

What you said here perfectly summed it up:

Quote
Titirga's powers are a nod to the interconnected nature of the psukhe, gnosis and anagogic sorcery

The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 01:28:57 am »
And as a nerdanel for the fuck of it: I believe that Titirga possessed, to some degree, both the Meta-Gnosis and the Psukhe, and that this combination of magics will become pivotal to Kellhus's later plans, whatever they are (I'm convinced he will learn the Psukhe eventually, if he hasn't already...another reason we haven't seen his Mark?).
Even if Kellhus could learn the Psukhe (which would require seeking out one of the few Cishaurim that survived Shimeh, at a time when he's busy conquering and consolidating his new Empire. The Cishaurim of course will hate him as the false heathen prophet that conquered one of the most important cities from the children of Fane and will have to spend a lot of time with Kellhus to be possessed. This will also have to be kept secret from all his men of the Tusk, who would not understand) and wanted to use it despite it, in virtually every respect but stealth, being inferior to the Gnosis, he still has to get past the fact that he's been raised as a Dunyain. Through breeding and conditioning, his emotions are utterly stunted. According to Kellhus himself, he would make a very weak bearer of the Water. I doubt he would consider it worth it.

Of course it's entirely possible (and I believe, likely) that Kellhus was wrong in his theories of how the Psukhe worked and that Moenghus was actually quite powerful (perhaps through overcoming his relative lack of passion with Dunyain instilled purity of control of the self, if the theory that the Psukhe's dual components are a thought inutterable and a subconscious felt unutterable is correct). But Kellhus does not believe that. If he did, then he would have to re-evaluate every piece of the ground he stood upon when he judged it best to end Moenghus, and consequently, much of his actions since.

Although maybe he's done that since the end of Thousandfold Thought. It's been 20 years. And no doubt Maithanet would have much light to shed on his father...

Well, that's enough rambling.

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 12:30:50 am »
As for Titirga, I think he's done. RIP 1119 is a long time to be dead. His life is important to the story, potentially hugely important, but I don't think he'll have much of a role to play.

Kellhus + psuke, maybe, but depends on the actually metaphysics of it. If you think MIALLTL (moenghus is a lying liar that lies), then sure its possible, though I still think its unlikely. Psuke is too much of a deus ex machina, and was extinguished to prevent the author to be tempted to solve issues in a cheesy manor.
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Triskele

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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 02:39:24 am »
Psuke is too much of a deus ex machina, and was extinguished to prevent the author to be tempted to solve issues in a cheesy manor.

But then why bring it back?  Especially in a way that seems like it was planned?

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 05:32:05 pm »
Forgot about meppa... I guess having 1 Cish with no memory who is basically just blindly following is one thing, and a super-dunyain something completely different. Meppa, as far as story goes, can be controlled, while having Puskari running amok would have vastly different implications.

Another explanation I can come up with is the WLW problem. Once you create something that cannot be defeated, a prescient warrior that is ordained by the most power God, something needs to contend with it. Even Kellhus, with all his plans and intellect, predicts possibilities, not certainties. He would likely lose in a battle against the WLW on a battlefield chosen by Yatwer. However, Meppa is potentially the only blind spot WLW might have, though that is a pretty big leap of faith. If the Puske is truly "indistinguishable from the God's own works", then maybe he could step into the blind spot of the being which sees all things...

But the point being that a single Psukari is easier to deal with than an entire school of invisible schoolmen who could potentially be casting unseen sorceries on literally all aspects of the story, people, places, even internal feelings/thoughts. To me, the story would be vastly cheapened by reveals akin to "Moe/Cish are behind everything because no one can detect them".

They are important to the story, but potentially too powerful. Why bring it back? Because doing so in a controlled way adds a lot of depth, and gives us a chance for explanations of many things, but leaving it as-is pre-TTT would have been too much.

These are just my thoughts though. I'm sure Bakker is far more tactful than I could imagine and if Moe/Cish still have a major role to play then it will be done well, sans the cheese.
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