The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Great Ordeal => The Aspect-Emperor => TGO ARC Discussion => Topic started by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 03:15:34 pm

Title: [TGO SPOILERS] Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 03:15:34 pm
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:24:27 pm
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!

btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 03:30:16 pm
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!


btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!
[/quote]

This was so f'ing awesome.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 03:31:00 pm
hey, when the Kelmomian Prophecy vision happened--did Gilgaol have a crown of 4 horns--like Ajokli?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 12, 2016, 03:39:14 pm
hey, when the Kelmomian Prophecy vision happened--did Gilgaol have a crown of 4 horns--like Ajokli?

Just reread this, yes, he is described as having 4 horns.  But it seems he was described as having horns before, just never how many...
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: mrganondorf on May 12, 2016, 04:51:26 pm
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on May 12, 2016, 08:22:08 pm
What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on May 14, 2016, 02:09:46 pm
i can't get over how freaking *human* Kellhus seems by the end of TGO and i love it!  he's pushed so far that the strain is rubbing off the Dunyain, it's captivating. 

he's totally going to use that ciphrang to take over Zeum and make it support the GO.  Zeumi ships on the way!

btw--flinging freaking ships at Nenciphon??? mentioned like it's just no big deal!!!

This was so f'ing awesome.

Yes! So much awesome.

Otherwise, no formulated thoughts for this topic yet - I can continue my previous conjecture unchanged that I think that Kellhus wants to understand and wield the Tekne.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on May 15, 2016, 03:54:16 am
What is Kellhus's intention?

The maddening possibilities... The study deepens.
 Here's my first pass:
Leaving The Great Ordeal must have always been a plan. He was grooming Proyas for that roll since WLW or sooner.
From that, I think returning to Momemn was always in the plan, though I didn't see that coming at all.
If Momemn, then I believe he planned the death of Maithanet. He had to give Yatwer and the White-Luck something. A trade of 'queens' maybe? Maitha for WL. Or, an inevitable gambit he could not surmount until he could have Kelmomas interrupt WLWs not-so-white-luck.
In addition, if saving The Empire was his plan, then he planned to force Zeum into the fray. If Fanayal had won, I'm guessing Zeum would see Kellhus as False and not help TGO.
So, if defeating Fanayal, then bringing Zeum. Since there might be doubts still, he'll murder the King and scare the rest into capitulating.

I'm thinking he plans to destroy the Consult still. He must appear at Golgotterath or otherwise meet with Akka so he can kneel. The why escapes me though.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...
History repeating seems a theme, so Kellhus looking for his son seems reasonable... Except that he could have just grabbed him himself on his way to Golgotterath with TGO. "Hey guys I'll be back tomorrow, I need to go see someone real quick".

On that note, it seems the Anasurimbor line continues to excel. Koringhus' intellect, according to him, baffled the elders. A couple more generations and they might have been unassailable - even as Kellhus and his might may be floundering(?). Too bad the Consult found them first.

Though maybe he needed not his son, but an army of Dunyain, or his whole line. Something that he didn't have time to sit around and spend days convincing the Dunyain to help. Something that Akka would have been able to deal with. I'm not really sure.

What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.

I hope to be guessing till the end :). Kellhus' madness, and his change from absolute certainty to confusion is quite staggering. Love it.

Maybe for a different thread, but the Nature of good/evil are grey to me, even as they are clearly defined.
Like the difference between morality and ethics.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on May 15, 2016, 06:19:02 pm
Or, an inevitable gambit he could not surmount until he could have Kelmomas interrupt WLWs not-so-white-luck.

No-So-White-Luck. Lol.

In addition, if saving The Empire was his plan, then he planned to force Zeum into the fray. If Fanayal had won, I'm guessing Zeum would see Kellhus as False and not help TGO.
So, if defeating Fanayal, then bringing Zeum. Since there might be doubts still, he'll murder the King and scare the rest into capitulating.

Well, Zsoronga will be Satakhan for a bit - regardless that he'll probably only find out when he's murdered by Ciphrang-Malowebi like H or MG brought up in another thread.

Recently, I've also been wondering why Kellhus needed Achamian to go to Ishual but I think I've decided that this arc mirrors Moenghus' in PON. Thirty years and still circumstance overwhelmed him. He needed his full-blooded son. Kellhus has had twenty years and still - perhaps - circumstance overwhelms him. He needed his full-blooded son... and Achamian is a Cipher for the Dunyain, a person whom the Dunyain would be intrigued rather than threatened by.

And, unfortunately, when Achamian and Mimara show up at the Ordeal - fucking called that Achamian wants Mimara to use the Eye on Kellhus years ago :D! - Kellhus is going to ask where his son is and instead of Koringhus, he's going to get his defective grandson...

History repeating seems a theme, so Kellhus looking for his son seems reasonable... Except that he could have just grabbed him himself on his way to Golgotterath with TGO. "Hey guys I'll be back tomorrow, I need to go see someone real quick".

On that note, it seems the Anasurimbor line continues to excel. Koringhus' intellect, according to him, baffled the elders. A couple more generations and they might have been unassailable - even as Kellhus and his might may be floundering(?). Too bad the Consult found them first.

Though maybe he needed not his son, but an army of Dunyain, or his whole line. Something that he didn't have time to sit around and spend days convincing the Dunyain to help. Something that Akka would have been able to deal with. I'm not really sure.

Indeed. I had the thought when we were recording TTT Reread Cast. It seemed particularly compelling at the time that Kellhus needed more Dunyain to succeed... at whatever it is he's trying to succeed at.

What is Kellhus's intention?

I was pretty surprised that we got POVs from Kellhus. I wonder if RSB's test readers were once again confused about Kellhus (much like in the initial draft of TTT) which prompted some rewrites with Kellhus getting POV chapters.

I suppose that up until the end of the battle for Dagliash, I assumed that Kellhus's plan was to defeat the Consult with the GO and then figure out a way to close the world to the Gods (which I think we see in the new version of the Celmomian Prophecy--which blew my mind in slow motion btw). He takes great pains to show Proyas that the Gods care nothing for men (to get buy in for closing the world). Kellhus is completely prepared to sacrifice everyone at home. Then comes the Inch-Nuke and Kellhus's departure from the GO.

I think what surprised me the most in the book was that Kellhus went HOME. He was ready to sacrifice Momemn, and then he returns. Has he decided the GO is doomed? Is he going to try to build another ordeal? It wouldn't seem feasible, considering that all the Schools now march with Proyas. (It's my assumption that Vim-Mithriti was the last sorcerer in the Three Seas). So what's the plan now?

my money is that Bakker has take the utmost pains to hide Kellhus' intention until like the last page of TUC.  he'll be foreshadowing multiple eventualities until it's all over i bet

Probably true. At some points in the book I was like, "oh shit, he actually is evil." and then at other points, he seemed benevolent. So I still don't know.

I hope to be guessing till the end :). Kellhus' madness, and his change from absolute certainty to confusion is quite staggering. Love it.

+1 Wilshire.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 16, 2016, 11:43:35 am
Another "telling" part is how Kyutas tells us that Theli (oh, poor Theli) figures out that they can't figure out Kellhus because he is no one, that "There is no such man as Kellhus ... No such Prophet.  Only an intricate web of deceptions and stratagems .. bound by one inexorable-and as you know, quite ruthless-principle."

This jives well with Kellhus' own estimation of himself, as "the Place, the point of maximal convergance."

The question of course is, what really is The Mission?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 02:40:03 pm
The question of course is, what really is The Mission?

Yeah, I am going to quote myself, that's where I am at.

I just had a thought.  If we take Kellhus at his word, that he is not working with the Consult (and I don't think he is) and not trying to bring about the No-God, then what is he after?

What if he is after the Absolute as a way to achieve Godhood and therefor redo the system?  No long will the Gods get to feast on Damnation, but perhaps he will remake it so they feast on Salvation?  Or, as the Absolute, essentially banish all the other demons of the Outside?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on May 19, 2016, 04:07:24 pm
The question of course is, what really is The Mission?

Yeah, I am going to quote myself, that's where I am at.

I just had a thought.  If we take Kellhus at his word, that he is not working with the Consult (and I don't think he is) and not trying to bring about the No-God, then what is he after?

What if he is after the Absolute as a way to achieve Godhood and therefor redo the system?  No long will the Gods get to feast on Damnation, but perhaps he will remake it so they feast on Salvation?  Or, as the Absolute, essentially banish all the other demons of the Outside?

This is kind of what I am leaning towards. I think he kind of sets that up with poor old Proyas when he tells him that goods thrive on their damnation and not their salvation.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 19, 2016, 04:12:42 pm
This is kind of what I am leaning towards. I think he kind of sets that up with poor old Proyas when he tells him that goods thrive on their damnation and not their salvation.

And so the Consult needs to be eliminated, because if they ever did resurrect the No-God, that would put Kellhus on the wrong end of the stick.  Or he needs the Consult to get Damned before he rewrites to rules.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on May 20, 2016, 06:05:17 pm
If nothing else they are too powerful an entity to just leave sitting around. What with the sogamat armor impervious to sorcery, and their millenia of schemes and limitless technology.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 23, 2016, 10:34:30 am
If nothing else they are too powerful an entity to just leave sitting around. What with the sogamat armor impervious to sorcery, and their millenia of schemes and limitless technology.

Yeah, plus it would seem to me that it is not in Kellhus' best interest to leave many self-moving souls around, since they would be the most apt to ruin his plans.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 12:24:45 pm
Could be why he wanted Akka/Mim to go to Ishual. If he went, they might figure out his intentions to kill all of them. That pair would be sufficiently mad enough to shield Kellhus true intentions from the Dunyain he hopped to lead back to him.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 23, 2016, 12:32:03 pm
Could be why he wanted Akka/Mim to go to Ishual. If he went, they might figure out his intentions to kill all of them. That pair would be sufficiently mad enough to shield Kellhus true intentions from the Dunyain he hopped to lead back to him.

Well, them going to there fits in with what he is doing in disillusioning Proyas.

Somehow, part of his plan hinges on people not believing in him.  I think Kellhus knew basically what they'd find and what it would mean about him and the fact of his the Dunyain damnation.  I don't know that he knew the kid would be alive, or Koringhus, though.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on May 23, 2016, 03:58:43 pm
Surviving Dunyain may have escaped his plan, or not. Would be an easy thing for him to have visited Ishual, especially under some glamour or hiding his presence magically from Koringhus/boy. I don't think that's particularly likely

Since he probably didn't go and check, the possibility of him disregarding the survival of the Dunyain once the  Consult found them doesn't seem too unlikely.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on May 31, 2016, 11:28:36 am
Surviving Dunyain may have escaped his plan, or not. Would be an easy thing for him to have visited Ishual, especially under some glamour or hiding his presence magically from Koringhus/boy. I don't think that's particularly likely

Since he probably didn't go and check, the possibility of him disregarding the survival of the Dunyain once the  Consult found them doesn't seem too unlikely.

Yeah, of late now, I am kind of buying Kellhus being both more fallible than we thought, yet also probably knowing more (about certain things, like the Outside) as well.

I think this is one of those times where Kellhus would have written off someone surviving was so unlikely it was not worth considering.  In the same way, do we think he knows the Cnaiür is still alive?  He could probably figure it was possible, but I doubt if he knows it would be a fact.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on May 31, 2016, 03:58:22 pm
I don't think he cares about Cnaiur.
Kellhus clearly thinks he had bested Cnaiur in the end,a nd even muses that he's in league with the Consult - but again doesnt seem overly concerned.

I doubt he spent any time caring if Cnaiur survived or not. Which may be a fatal mistake. Cnaiur makes a really good point, he outwitted a Dunyain, that on top of everything else that he is makes him quite the wild card.
Still irritates me that Scott  said his story arc was finished because it makes me feel like speculating on Cnaiur is a waste of time.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Somnambulist on May 31, 2016, 04:04:35 pm
I don't think he cares about Cnaiur.
Kellhus clearly thinks he had bested Cnaiur in the end,a nd even muses that he's in league with the Consult - but again doesnt seem overly concerned.

I doubt he spent any time caring if Cnaiur survived or not. Which may be a fatal mistake. Cnaiur makes a really good point, he outwitted a Dunyain, that on top of everything else that he is makes him quite the wild card.
Still irritates me that Scott  said his story arc was finished because it makes me feel like speculating on Cnaiur is a waste of time.

He could have said "Cnaiur's story is done... for now."  But then we'd all have been waiting/wanting/expecting him to return.  His appearance in TGO would have been no great surprise.  'Here are the Scylvendi, roaming Kuniuri, guess who's leading them?'  Yawn.  I loved that his survival was open to speculation, and it took three books to show him again.  That being said, it's not going to surprise Kellhus he's alive when he finds out.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 02, 2016, 02:33:44 am
I loved that his survival was open to speculation, and it took three books to show him again.

I too respect Bakker's ability to strike a balance with Cnaiur.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2016, 01:03:01 pm
Hello, fellow bitten. I wanted this to be my first post since finishing, because hey, I love to gloat! I'm so glad I had the balls to confirm my thoughts on the podcast that Kellhus has indeed started to shed his Dunyain and gain more human emotions. His not abandoning Momemn to utter ruin and his comments to Esme of coming to save them, I believe, confirms this.

Now, another of my outlandish thoughts, he is the "Saviour" of this story, no matter how you slice it. Here's where I think this is all going.

1. I don't think the JE is 100% reliable. That being said, I am not so sure that when Mimara does look on him, she will see both damnation, yet see the possibility for salvation.

2. Kellhus is damned through this current system of the Outside, no doubt about it. The 100 are who rule and feast upon damnation. Its even said that the whole system of worship is set up for damnation sake. There's no avoiding this, as Mimara says, the JE sees the present, not the past or the future. But, I seem to recall in one of the previous JE povs, that she sees the possibility of salvation in one of the scalpers. I'll look that up later.

2. The haloes have no Mark. Malowebi sees this and notes it when Kellhus first appears in Fayanal's tent. So if Malowebi can see them they are not the the haloes of deceit or deception. I believe they are the haloes of possibility.

3. This is where I have to tip my hat to H, and others. I believe he is indeed warring against the Gods, striving towards the Absolute. To essentially, make the God whole again. I think this series will result in him defeating the No-God/Consult, the next will be him warring against the Gods. Again not my own idea, but made clear in TGO.

Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 04, 2016, 11:20:51 pm
Lol - a Zaudunyani. I hope SR returns soon. He can lead your ilk :P.

I'll remain undecided.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 04, 2016, 11:23:45 pm
Lol - a Zaudunyani. I hope SR returns soon. He can lead your ilk :P.

I'll remain undecided.

No, not a Zaudunyani at all. I feel as he said , "it's not about good and evil." I simply belief his way is a better way for humanity. More will be saved, he will be a savior. He ruthless no doubt, but as we've seen he has gained human emotions and they will effect his mission.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 04, 2016, 11:29:39 pm
Ah.

I'll agree with that. Kellhus become a man who was once Dunyain was something I can confirm as calling on ZTS ;).

But Saviour? Still totally undecided.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on June 09, 2016, 03:10:36 pm
I heard that Adele song "Hello" at work yesterday..."Hello from the Outside"
The...the outside is leaking into the world.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2016, 12:57:27 am
Golgotterath should the world's worst Topoi, right?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on June 13, 2016, 08:03:32 pm
Golgotterath should the world's worst Topoi, right?
I don't see how it couldn't be.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on June 14, 2016, 09:46:07 pm
The worst topos, yes, I'd think so. The death or the no god caused a topos, I imagine it's creation would as well .
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on June 14, 2016, 09:54:49 pm
The worst topos, yes, I'd think so. The death or the no god caused a topos, I imagine it's creation would as well .
And all the sweet, sweet suffering.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 14, 2016, 10:02:13 pm
Yea, I'd say the Pit of Obscenities is the cause of the topos.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 15, 2016, 03:06:46 pm
Well of the Aborted? Also - whatever is up with Sibuwal at Hell City. That's just the place the Consult took people from, let alone the what they used those chattel for at Golgotterath.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on June 15, 2016, 03:36:23 pm
Well of the Aborted? Also - whatever is up with Sibuwal at Hell City. That's just the place the Consult took people from, let alone the what they used those chattel for at Golgotterath.

All I can think of is that since Wreleoth (spelling?) was the stockyard for the Consult, presumably something marked the place, and the people from it, as being off limits to Sranc, this way they wouldn't empty it out of carnal lust, etc.

So now, Sibawûl and the rest are the bearers of that mark, inherited either from the place itself or the souls still stuck in between from the Topos.

(Sorry guys, still on vacation, but I'll try to pop in once in a while.)
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 15, 2016, 05:09:25 pm
Well of the Aborted, ok. Well, isn't there a Pit of Obscenities also? My point really was that there isn't just one thing that made the Ark a topos. Its the adding up of quite a many things.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 15, 2016, 09:58:44 pm
Yeah, there's a Pit of Obscenities as well. I was just adding to it, and your point really, regarding the Well of the Aborted :) (which is where the Inchoroi apparently dumped their dead trying to graft things to beat the Nonmen, I think?).

(Sorry guys, still on vacation, but I'll try to pop in once in a while.)

Is vacation crazy, H?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on June 16, 2016, 03:52:36 pm
Yeah, there's a Pit of Obscenities as well. I was just adding to it, and your point really, regarding the Well of the Aborted :) (which is where the Inchoroi apparently dumped their dead trying to graft things to beat the Nonmen, I think?).

"Pit of Obscenities" is the literal translation of the Ihrimsû name Min-Uroikas, which is simply the name they called the Ark post-Consult.

(Sorry guys, still on vacation, but I'll try to pop in once in a while.)

Is vacation crazy, H?

All bit, pretty busy trying to fit everything in.  I feel like I need a vacation from my vacation.  Also doesn't help that our minivan's AC died on the way here, haha.

[EDIT Madness]: Just modified your quote tags.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 16, 2016, 04:09:03 pm
Lol - Griswold family vacation at its finest.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on June 16, 2016, 05:02:20 pm
Lol - Griswold family vacation at its finest.

Indeed, still a long drive back too, haha.  I'd probably post a bit more but as you saw, messing with quotes is a hot mess from the phone.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Walter on June 16, 2016, 05:18:12 pm
So, Kellhus coming back to Momemn is extremely interesting to me.  Beyond that, the fact that he's still talking to Malo about treaties, and sending him to deal with Zeum's gov...it all seems to indicate that he is once again taking an interest in the New Empire.  Has he given up on the Ordeal?

Also, what broke the White Luck?  It seemed like it was Kelmomas's cry, but why would that do it?  Could it be because Yatwer can't see Samarmus in his mind?  Spitballing here.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on June 16, 2016, 05:33:19 pm
Generally speaking, I think what got the WLW is that something happened outside of his/Yatwer's "infinite vision". It's a pretty blatant demonstration of "the Gods are blind to what they are blind to".

If Kellhus came back, its hard to assume that he didn't always plan on it. Or, maybe that nuke damaged the Ordeal in such a way that suddenly Kellhus figured he better make sure plan B (ie, whatever is going on with Empire and Zeum) is going as planned.

Contingencies for running out of sranc seem to be planned for, so I don't think the dispersion of the Horde-Meat-Cattle was the trigger for Kellhus coming back. Maybe, though, this happened sooner than what he expected, but to me it doesn't seem a huge stretch that kellhus figured a decisive victory at Dagliash would destroy most of the sranc one way or another.

If not for the nuke, the sranc would have just kepts pouring through the mountain passes, dying in the millions. Incidentally, the tekne-nuke might have ended up saving more of the sorcerers than it destroyed. The schools seemed to be pretty hard pressed on the mountains, and they were starting to lose some members. Assuming that the Swayali got away and were able to warn/protect some of the schools, the whole thing might have really been a net gain. We have already been told the Ordeal is really just a meat shield for the Schools. It'll just be a bit more Meat than Shied as they cross Agongorea.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 16, 2016, 11:46:00 pm
So, Kellhus coming back to Momemn is extremely interesting to me.

Very interesting, indeed. And, I disagree Wilshire, it was never always part of the plan. We have his convo with Proyas in WLW where he says that Momemn will be left to ruin and it's why he forbid Cants of Calling. This "more" Dûnyain bit, is simply Kellhus combining emotion with his intellect. He says as much to Esme, that he came back to salvage what he could. Because? He cares.

Koringhus is a great example. He saved the boy, and it certainly wasn't happenstance or any such thing. Throughout his POV we see him gain feelings, it's natural once Dûnyain step into the world, Koringhus just learned and grasped it sooner. It's all part of his grasping of the Absolute, imho.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wic on June 17, 2016, 02:24:35 am

Also, what broke the White Luck?  It seemed like it was Kelmomas's cry, but why would that do it?  Could it be because Yatwer can't see Samarmus in his mind?  Spitballing here.
I think it's one of two things (or more likely, a combination):

1. through some conceptual voodoo, constantly shadowing WLW in the hidden spaces of the palace, Kel found himself in the White Luck's blind spot.

2. Ajokli.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 02:31:23 am

Also, what broke the White Luck?  It seemed like it was Kelmomas's cry, but why would that do it?  Could it be because Yatwer can't see Samarmus in his mind?  Spitballing here.
I think it's one of two things (or more likely, a combination):

1. through some conceptual voodoo, constantly shadowing WLW in the hidden spaces of the palace, Kel found himself in the White Luck's blind spot.

2. Ajokli.

I agree that it's a combination of the two. Interesting aside, Madness and I (&Blackstone) were talking about how some speculate that Ajokli sees what the rest of the 100 can't (this from the convo between the Narinder and WLW). So, maybe it's that Ajokli can literally see that blind spot and through Uneerring Grace, placed Kelmommas in that spot. So, essentially exactly what you said, but something to ponder going forward.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Walter on June 17, 2016, 01:17:48 pm
I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Madness on June 17, 2016, 03:29:02 pm
Lol - Griswold family vacation at its finest.

Indeed, still a long drive back too, haha.  I'd probably post a bit more but as you saw, messing with quotes is a hot mess from the phone.

Lol - no worries.

I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.

Interesting take, Walter.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Blackstone on June 17, 2016, 05:08:56 pm
I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.
That was what I thought until about two weeks after finishing TGO, so I see where you are coming from.

Aside: Did anyone read Roger Eichorn's review? He says the White Luck and Unerring Grace are the same thing...which I postulate on another thread.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 05:40:12 pm
I don't see any real sign that Ajokli is active in story.  That's just Kelmommas's imagination running wild about the WLW, I think.
That was what I thought until about two weeks after finishing TGO, so I see where you are coming from.

Aside: Did anyone read Roger Eichorn's review? He says the White Luck and Unerring Grace are the same thing...which I postulate on another thread.

Well, I'd say that you're right. Its essentially another way to say that by the Gods seeing all of time, they can place you where you need to be. I can't see how anyone cannot see the connection between Ajokli and Kelmommas. Its easy if it's in our world, but the Gods do exist in Earwa, and have a hand in the events unfolding now. They have a huge stake in the SA, it's their very existence. Kellhus is their end. They are moving pieces. I speculated before TGO this very thing, even that Akka is guided by Anagke.

ETA: I also was hesitant to believe the Gods had a hand in so much. But, the Celmommas dream with Gilgoal squashed those doubts. The Gods are very involved in the events of TAE.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 07:21:17 pm
Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Walter on June 17, 2016, 07:27:10 pm
@Kelmo/Whiteluck

Like, I don't think he has anything to do with Ajokli.  He's just a dunyain murderer.  He buys into the Whiteluck's narindar disguise, and spends all of this time imagining him as the God of murder, but we've been inside of whiteluck's thoughts, and he belongs entirely to Yatwer.  What does Ajokli have to do with anything other than being Kelmo's obsession?  I mean, he's a shrewd child, but Kelmo doesn't have any whiteluck that we've ever seen.  He doesn't see infinite versions of himself, etc.

@Serwe:

I kind of think that she's the head on the pole behind him.  Like, the critical moment when Kellhus stopped being a dunyain and became whatever he is now was when he got circumfexed.  I think that was the first time he went Outside.  The daemons couldn't kill him because he had a breathing body.  He remembered that by remembering that Serwe was on the pole behind him.  This is the earlier time that the ciphrangs are talking about when he goes out the second time to get the daemons heads.  The 'head on a pole' thing is like a mnemonic device he uses to remind himself that he is alive, he can't be Damned yet, they can't get him.  It is leftover from his visions while hanging.

Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2016, 08:27:45 pm
Well, Ajokli doesn't use White-Luck so Kelmommas wouldn't have those same perspectives. When Kel talked to the Tudor he was told how Ajokli worked. How after offering a sacrifice (the beetle) Ajokli would grant Uneerring Grace. Then after granting his Grace he would then later on take what you hold dear, to your own demise. I postulated that what Kel came to hold dear was the Narinder, for killing Thelli and for going to kill Kellhus. And this is the reason that Ajokli stepped in and killed the Narinder. It was what Kel had come to hold dear. Now, it could have been that Esme was the one meant to be killed by the earthquake and the Narinder was just colloteral damage. I guess we'll find that out with TUC.

I like the idea that Serwe is the head on a pole. I've seen that tossed around before. Good stuff.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MisterGuyMan on June 28, 2016, 02:23:23 pm
Allow me to quote an earlier post of mine I made after reading TJE and I'll elaborate on it after:
Quote from: MisterGuyMan
The outside mirrors the mundane world on several levels. Akka observes that the differences between the Outside and the mundane world is a matter of degree and not actual substance. Even Moe and Kellhus, the first after decades of observation and the latter from firsthand study, observe that the outside is a glorified battlefield of warring factions.

Apparently your mundane life merely sets your position for the afterlife. Inithrism gives you a path to cozy up with a god of your choice in the hopes that they can protect you once your soul finds its way in the afterlife. This only applies, of course, to the compensatory gods. Gilgaol, the god of war, who is not a compensatory god would have otherwise taken the Captain under his protection. Zuem bypasses this by setting up ancestors together in similar groups that can watch for one another. Zuemi doesn't deny the existence of the Hundred, they just believe your own kin are more reliable allies in the Outside. This coincides with Kellhus' observation that the Outside is nothing more than innumerable factions warring amongst themselves.

By contrast the few that bruise themselves seem like they just mark themselves for any Ciphrang that is strong enough to claim them for an everlasting snack. This could explain why Cishaurim don't bruise. The Tusk specifically condemns sorcerers as an abomination. Fanism specifically exalts the Pshuke as being closer to the Solitary God.

After some contemplation here's my current theory. At one point one of the characters, I believe it was Kayutas, notes that the Great Ordeal is nothing more than a vehicle to transport the thousands of sorcerers. It's also noted that Topos are, quite literally, gates into Hell. The greater the Topos, the closer you are to the Outside. You're essentially in the Outside at that point on varying degrees. Kellhus' entire plan for the Ordeal is to take the entire expedition to the largest Topos in the world and... just stay there. At that point he'd have an actual army in the Outside backed a core of sorcerers in their thousands. Whatever Zauduyani survive would be able to help as well. We know that the Gods and Demons all value and collect human souls so they must have some purpose in the Outside. From there Kellhus builds strength by dominating the lower Ciphrang, recruiting tormented sorcerers' souls and begins building a mansion strong enough to eventually challenge the Hundred. Since it appears that the Hundred are just more powerful and more legitimate Ciphrang, the Dunyain axiom of dominating circumstance must extend logically to dominating the Hundred. Likely human souls, Nonmen souls, Ciphrang and even the gods are all essentially the same in the Outside.
I believe I'm still generally on the right track.  I always go back to the notion that the outside is fundamentally no different that the normal world.  The two worlds differ in degrees only.  One amendment to the theory is the how eating the Sranc is affecting the thoughts of TGO.  I believe this is intentional.  Kellhus is priming the Ordeal to think a certain way that is conducive to mastering the Gods in the Outside much the same way he was priming Proyas.  I suspect for Proyas this as to force him to accept that he will be literally required to murder or dominate the gods he loves so much.  For everyone else, a frenzied violent mindset seems to be what works in the Outside.  That's certainly how the Ciphrang and Gods seem to handle business.

To put it bluntly, if Souls are ,for lack of a better term, currency in the afterlife, then what's stopping Khellhus from storming in there with his own army of souls?  That's part and parcel of the Dunyain schtick.  All interaction are hammers to temper people into useful tools.  The Thousandfold Thought was described as a pattern repeating itself within a larger pattern and IIRC it was also identified as an Empire made as Kellhus' soul or something like that.  So these crazed Ordealmen are now primed to repeat the pattern that is Kellhus' sould in the outside.  Then the pattern that is the Ordealmen will force the other factions in the Outside to confirm to the same pattern.  In short, TTT is the pattern of Kellhus' soul forcing itself into a larger pattern or the Ordeal forcing itself into the pattern of the outside-- ie the unmoved soul ie The One God, the title for the next trilogy.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: SilentRoamer on July 04, 2016, 07:39:52 pm
What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 07, 2016, 07:26:40 pm
What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?

Good question, SR. You know, sometimes it feels like Kellhus just says that kinda stuff to make people think him a God. Well, matter a fact, everyone does think him a God. Is he though? Or this just more of his manipulative bullshit? It all hinges on the haloes to me. What if it's not like Locke says, that he's god-entangled but that he's actually a God walking, part of the 100? It's so hard to parse truth from bullshit in this series, tbh.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wilshire on July 07, 2016, 07:40:46 pm
What does everyone get from Kellhus referring to Yatwer as his sister?

Kellhus just says that kinda stuff to make people think him a God.
This ^
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: Wic on July 08, 2016, 02:09:15 am
Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.
It makes sense if she is the goad to Kellhus' ultimate plans. If he broke on the Circumfix witnessing her death and damnation, and found it so utterly unacceptable that he decided at that moment that he would rewrite the very rules of salvation...
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 08, 2016, 02:32:29 am
Just thinking on this right now. Kellhus asks Proyas if he's comfortable knowing Serwe burns in hell. I wonder if this is true? With the comments by Bakker saying that in a way, Serwe is the most important character of the series, has me seriously doubting that she is. Even Mimara remarks upon Serwe when she sees the Skin-Spy change to her. I'd love to go back and read that, but Serwe is like the Virgin Mary of the New Empire. I just wonder if Kelllhus is missing something.
It makes sense if she is the goad to Kellhus' ultimate plans. If he broke on the Circumfix witnessing her death and damnation, and found it so utterly unacceptable that he decided at that moment that he would rewrite the very rules of salvation...

I really like that Wic, Serwe is the goad that causes Kellhus to end damnation. He realizes how the world works, and how awful it is that a complete and utter innocent like Serwe is still damned. So, he wages war on the Gods and the Consult. So obvious. Yet, I needed you to point it out, lol.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: SilentRoamer on July 08, 2016, 11:22:07 am
Hey guys,

My view has always been that Serwe and the Circumfix broke Kellhus. The World Moved Kellhus, he went mad and became a Dunyain defective.

I'm not sue if Kellhus as we knew him from earlier PoV's would be recognisable anymore though.

Another question - how do you guys see the scene where Kellhus tells the Ordeal to flee? Do you see this as humanity coming through or something more sinister?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 08, 2016, 12:18:09 pm
Would anyone mind giving the exact quote that Serwe is, in her way, the most important character in the series?  Pretty please.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on July 08, 2016, 12:23:59 pm
Hey guys,

My view has always been that Serwe and the Circumfix broke Kellhus. The World Moved Kellhus, he went mad and became a Dunyain defective.

I'm not sue if Kellhus as we knew him from earlier PoV's would be recognisable anymore though.

Another question - how do you guys see the scene where Kellhus tells the Ordeal to flee? Do you see this as humanity coming through or something more sinister?

I definitely am convinced by Theliopa's evaluation of Kellhus, that there is no Kellhus, he is simply what he needs to be in the moment.

What appears to us (and for some, appeals to us) as his compassion, his humanity, is nothing more than the tail end of his practicality.  Saving the parts he needs, disposing of, or letting be disposed of, the rest is all part of walking the Shortest Path.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on July 08, 2016, 12:31:41 pm
Would anyone mind giving the exact quote that Serwe is, in her way, the most important character in the series?  Pretty please.

Thanks.

Well, it's been Locke's position for a long time, I'm sure you can search his posts to find more that he's said.

Scott did recently say this though, kind of affirming her position of importance:

Serwe is an important cipher in the books. Kellhus is not above chicanery. There's not much more I can say without getting deeper into either, which I don't want to do until the series is completed.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 08, 2016, 02:23:35 pm
Would anyone mind giving the exact quote that Serwe is, in her way, the most important character in the series?  Pretty please.

Thanks.

He also said something along those same lines in an interview awhile back. Its in the curated thread.

ETA: found it

Quote
But it was the innocence part, that struck me as the most significant and the most
redemptive. Without giving too much away, there is a manner in which Serwe is the most
important character in the book.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 08, 2016, 02:51:45 pm

I definitely am convinced by Theliopa's evaluation of Kellhus, that there is no Kellhus, he is simply what he needs to be in the moment.

What appears to us (and for some, appeals to us) as his compassion, his humanity, is nothing more than the tail end of his practicality.  Saving the parts he needs, disposing of, or letting be disposed of, the rest is all part of walking the Shortest Path.

I seen the humanity coming before TGO, so none of it suprises me, does appeal though. Here is what I've heard no one try to explain. Why did Kellhus come back to Momemn? Before TGO, I said I thought he would come back he wouldn't leave them to ruin and everyone points to his and Proyas's talk and says never. He's abandoned them, it's the Shortest Path. So the Shortest Path has changed? Or, is he finding that as he aproachs the Absolute, the emotions are ineveitable? Isn't that what Koringhus teaches us?
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 08, 2016, 06:39:22 pm

Another question - how do you guys see the scene where Kellhus tells the Ordeal to flee? Do you see this as humanity coming through or something more sinister?

Those scenes before Dagliash definitely have me feeling that the Meat is definitely effecting Kellhus. The one scene where he is above the Ordeal and each person can hear him is utterly insane. And doesn't Proyas and Saubon remark that the Meat has taking him? Also, when he told them to flee, I believe he was just trying to save as many as possible.

Did Kellhus know the bomb was in Viri? I just thought he brought it up by accident.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: H on July 09, 2016, 02:45:27 am
I seen the humanity coming before TGO, so none of it suprises me, does appeal though. Here is what I've heard no one try to explain. Why did Kellhus come back to Momemn? Before TGO, I said I thought he would come back he wouldn't leave them to ruin and everyone points to his and Proyas's talk and says never. He's abandoned them, it's the Shortest Path. So the Shortest Path has changed? Or, is he finding that as he aproachs the Absolute, the emotions are ineveitable? Isn't that what Koringhus teaches us?

I'm really not sure.  Perhaps it did change, in light of the Tekne Nuke?  Let's not forget his claim to see visions that he apparently listens to, but "ceases to trust."  Perhaps the visions said to go back?  To create Ciphrang-Malowebi in order to convert, or disable Zeum?  Or to capture Meppa?

Or even that Esmenet was not done being useful?

You know I am clouded with doubt that Kellhus is at all the "good guy" and so I am skeptical that this was at all some humane act.  Between the visions he claims guide him and Theli's appraisal, I find much to compound my own suspicions.
Title: Re: Kellhus
Post by: MSJ on July 09, 2016, 03:38:17 am
See, I think Kellhus knows everything about the Zero-God and how to obtain the Absolute. I think he cares about humanity because he knows what awaits them in the Outside. But, you know, Thelli is right, Kellhus is whoever he needs to be at that moment. It what he has to do. He has to be a lying, manipulative S.O.B. because he is fighting a war not only with the Consult, but with the Gods. The TTT and how he took over an Empire and became what he now is, is all built on lies. It's what the Dunyain are, and Moe was Dunyain, Kellhus is more. I think there will be a scene with him and Akka in TUC where he explains all this. That he broke on the Circumfix, seen how his manipulations had killed an innocent, one he cares for. But he had also grasped the TT, and had no choice but to continue down that path to stop the Consult and the Gods. His actions are at odds with his emotions, but they have to be with what he has to do. That's why we only catch rare glimpses of them, because he cannot let them rule him entirely.