The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 03:22:14 am

Title: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 03:22:14 am
Alright ladies and gents... shit just got real!

All discussion of these excerpts is to remain in this thread only. Anything gets talked about in Quorum and I'm shutting it down until Canadian release, July 18th.

Thanks to Hello World at Westeros for scouting this.

At the following link, kobo.com allows you to preview the table of contents (all the chapter titles!), the What Has Come Before section, and the entirety of chapter 1 & part of 2.

Happy reading!

Link (https://www.kobo.com/nl/en/ebook/the-unholy-consult)

EDIT: Fixed my misinformation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 09:44:48 am
Should mention:

You follow the link through and "preview." And I also found that the preview didn't work on my Firefox browser but did on my Safari browser (I'm on a Mac).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 11, 2017, 10:15:04 am
Love. It's all that need be said from my quick perusal!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 10:16:48 am
Haha - a quick glance is all pollution might take, MSJ ;).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hiro on June 11, 2017, 02:31:32 pm
Should mention:

You follow the link through and "preview." And I also found that the preview didn't work on my Firefox browser but did on my Safari browser (I'm on a Mac).

Same here, although I used Chrome instead of Safari to read it.

How strange to be finally, finally able to read some pages from TUC. And awesome as well.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on June 11, 2017, 03:14:58 pm
I just finished the "What Comes Before" section of TUC. I found it clarifying, and it should enable new readers to tackle TUC. Pray, God-of-Gods, that this should occur!

Now, onto Chapters One and Two!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2017, 04:22:34 pm
I don't think it's the complete two chapters.

For me at least, the What comes before part is cut off, and the 2nd chapter cuts off too. I alos think there might be a cut off in chapter 1 too, but it's not obvious.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 11, 2017, 04:45:39 pm
I didn't really check, just took Hello World at their word. Ask Redeagl?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2017, 04:50:17 pm
I didn't really check, just took Hello World at their word. Ask Redeagl?

Well the what has come before, defo stops short. It only really goes up to the end of WLW.

Chapter 2 stops suddenly mid-text.

Chapter 1. seems to finish at the end, but i suspect it is too short to be the full chapter.

I'll check myself in 25 days ;)

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on June 11, 2017, 05:13:56 pm
The what comes before actually goes to the end of TGO. Chapter 1 seemed a bit short to me for a Bakker chapter but I don't see any reason to think that it's cut off. Chapter 2 ends fine except for a missing " at the end.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2017, 05:38:11 pm
Must be my viewer then.

as both the WHCB and chapter 2 stop mid sentence.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on June 11, 2017, 05:41:11 pm
Starts with a bang, folks! This will be EPIC!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on June 11, 2017, 05:45:35 pm
Actually, Kalbear made this comment on Westeros,

Quote
On the first two chapters: the second one is cut pretty short (like 10 pages) and even in the middle of a subchapter, so those of you who have read the thing be careful of spoiling what isn't in there yet. (The WHCB and chapter 1 appear to be intact however).
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2017, 05:53:07 pm
I've went and read the WHCB part and it still stops mid-sentence for me. Although reading back it details some of the TGO it still stops short.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on June 11, 2017, 06:01:18 pm
Try using a different browser and going fullscreen by pressing F11 if you're on Chrome makes the box a lot bigger. To be clear the WHCB section ends with,

Quote
The ceilings gave, and the boy learns that what is ruined can become more ruined still.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Redeagl on June 11, 2017, 06:11:46 pm
I checked. What Kalbear said is true.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Wolfdrop on June 11, 2017, 06:34:35 pm
I found the writing excellent but was still a bit underwhelmed compared the openings of the other books.

I've only read them through once but the only thing that stood out in chapter one was Esmi setting the WLW on Kellhus? I don't recall this.

Chapter 2 just seemed like Moenghus bitching about not getting rescued by Serwa via sorcery, though didn't she have an agonic collar on the whole time so that was hardly feasible. I'm also a bit confused about what happened between the last Ishterebinth chapter from TGO and this. I don't doubt it'll fill out but I'm still a bit lost. I guess Serwa wrecked the place but there's little mention of any of the events of the final showdown so to speak.

The chapter titles have got me more excited than the 2 chapters, I'm just slightly underwhelmed.

That said, my preorder has been in for months and I'm still confident the book overall will be fantastic.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on June 11, 2017, 07:44:29 pm
I found the writing excellent but was still a bit underwhelmed compared the openings of the other books.
So......Chapter One opens with a river running backwards, Chapter Two gives us the first Moënghus POV, and you're slightly underwhelmed by the opening, compared to the other books?

Shaking my damn head.....
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hiro on June 11, 2017, 09:06:45 pm
What about Meppa? Did he drown...?

Other thought: Bakker opens the book by getting rid of some of his arena's, chapter 1 ends the Momemn line through Gods' cataclysms; chapter 2 says goodbye to our Nonmen friends at Ishterebinth. This helps the Consult numerical goal along as well, huh...

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 11, 2017, 09:14:33 pm
OMG Meppa never occurred to me. Good question!!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MisterGuyMan on June 11, 2017, 09:25:12 pm
Well that was aggravating.  Trying to read it on mobile is torture.  You only read every half page, giving just enough so you kinda follow but so little that it's more frustrating than anything else.

Good Find either way.  Finally going home to read this bad boy.  My faith in Kellhus is strengthened.  You doubters shall be exposed!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Walking-Star on June 12, 2017, 12:48:23 am
I must say, the lamentations of the Abomination-Child are most amusing. The Prince of Hate has a great sense of humor.

Though, I am left wondering, is Sorweel now technically the last Intact Ishroi?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 12, 2017, 01:56:20 am
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Redeagl on June 12, 2017, 02:06:52 am
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.
... ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 12, 2017, 08:58:10 am
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.

Whuch part is that quote from?

Only part i can see is "you... and all mankind"

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 12, 2017, 02:04:41 pm
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.

Whuch part is that quote from?

Only part i can see is "you... and all mankind"

Esme calls him a monster and he says he is the monster needed to save her and all of mankind.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MisterGuyMan on June 12, 2017, 02:19:56 pm
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.

Whuch part is that quote from?

Only part i can see is "you... and all mankind"

Esme calls him a monster and he says he is the monster needed to save her and all of mankind.
To add to that Esme accused him of coming back just to save the Empire.  Kellhus points out that they're currently traveling away from the Empire but he still saved her.  The implication being that she and nothing else is the reason he went back.  He then states that she is his only Darkness which is about the sweetest thing a Dunyain can say about another.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 12, 2017, 10:36:03 pm
So, there it is in Chapter 1, "To save Mankind...". Also, debated was he went back to save Esme, which is true. Good clarification.

Whuch part is that quote from?

Only part i can see is "you... and all mankind"

Esme calls him a monster and he says he is the monster needed to save her and all of mankind.
To add to that Esme accused him of coming back just to save the Empire.  Kellhus points out that they're currently traveling away from the Empire but he still saved her.  The implication being that she and nothing else is the reason he went back.  He then states that she is his only Darkness which is about the sweetest thing a Dunyain can say about another.

Yes, MGM those are great points. Me and Redeagl have a running debate/contest on the issue of a sorts. I hope his " ;) " isn't a spoiler in itself as a means of gloating...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 13, 2017, 01:39:50 am
Yeah but that quote doesn't appear is what i am saying. Not in that format.

He says he keeps them ignorant to save them from sin. The sin they commit in his name, we already know not everyone can be saved and it's a good thing. Saubon wasn't saved from anything.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 13, 2017, 04:07:12 am
Yeah but that quote doesn't appear is what i am saying. Not in that format.

He says he keeps them ignorant to save them from sin. The sin they commit in his name, we already know not everyone can be saved and it's a good thing. Saubon wasn't saved from anything.

Me and MGM both read it in that format...I dunno why you're missing it.

ETA: I'm sure he'll have to do whatever he is going to do, before the rules of salvation change. He's saying he is trying to save mankind from damnation.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 13, 2017, 04:31:43 am
There isn't a quote in the preview that says "To save Mankind..." or not that i can find.

The only thing i can find is "you... and all mankind" in context of why he is keeping people ignorant cause it's innocence to shield them from Sin.

I'm not talking about what the interpretation is, I can't find that quote, so i'm asking where about it is in the preview? As I can't find it.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 13, 2017, 04:34:07 am
So you deceive me, keep me ignorant, to save me from sin?”

“You ... and all mankind.”

is what i can find.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hiro on June 13, 2017, 09:06:05 am
So, in TJE, when Psatma is transforming her and the WLW, she says, well croaks:

"There is the knife that cuts," she croaked, "and there is the sea that drowns. Always we have been the latter…"

While the meaning of the sea is used differently here, it does feel, having read TUC chapter 1, as a seed to Momemn being swallowed by the sea.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: BeardFisher-King on June 13, 2017, 12:23:46 pm
So you deceive me, keep me ignorant, to save me from sin?”

“You ... and all mankind.”

is what i can find.
Good topic for Saturday.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 13, 2017, 01:16:14 pm
So you deceive me, keep me ignorant, to save me from sin?”

“You ... and all mankind.”

is what i can find.

Right. Its all right in that same scene. About him being the Monster mankind needs to save them from sin, by keeping them ignorant. Which is intriguing, considering how much we have thoughout the entirety of the series about ignorance being holy. Also, during Moe and Kellhus meeting, Moe says, "You taught them ignorance". Which could be the source of the haloes, their ignorance.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: SalvatorDunyain on June 14, 2017, 12:49:20 am
Thanks for the link. This is badass.  Just a few thoughts:

× Did anyone notice in the What has come before part it said Moe fled Ishual.

× Really think Kellhus knew his kid was f'ed up the whole time.

×Cnaiur and Moe Jr. will reunite

×Kellhus loves Esmi,  in some unfathomable  (to us) way. He knows something we don't.

×Kellhus will not kill his son, Esmi will.

× Sorweel may kill Moe Jr. Perhaps in protecting Serwa

×These books fucking rock.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: incuroi on June 14, 2017, 05:13:32 am
well we got our whale-mother answer. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 14, 2017, 08:47:08 am
What was the whale mother question?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 14, 2017, 10:43:49 am
ORANGES
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 14, 2017, 02:31:18 pm
What was the whale mother question?

Yes, please enlighten incoroi!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on June 14, 2017, 10:22:00 pm
I think he may have read last year's excerpt by accident.  ;)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 15, 2017, 06:41:14 am
Whale Mothers breed Dunyain. Esmenet bred Dunyain. The Ark is described as a once living thing, has qualities both aquatic and whale-esque (Nau-Cayuti trying to break a gigantic rib bone in the Seswatha dream). The Ark/Esmi is the Darkness in which Kellhus can "hide".

The Ark is a Tekne super-whale mother?

I wonder if the Ark itself is in fact still a Sentient force, possibly manifest as Shauriatas? Would fit into the idea of a Demirugic figure, an entity which (through ignorance and blindness) has mistakenly come to believe it created the World...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 16, 2017, 06:45:31 am
Also, it's funny. In the AMA Bakker seemed surprised that (some) people didn't realize that Momas was the cause of the earthquake, rather than Yatwer. I wonder Kellhus's line here is meant to clarify that, which indicates not only that Momas is sending the tsunami, but also that he was responsible for the earthquake as well.

Maybe the Gods are so tricky to figure out partially because the World is seemingly a separate entity, or perhaps an amalgamation of all the Gods. Affixing "earth powers" to Yatwer felt straightforward given all the symbolism, but then she isn't an earth goddess, rather a fertility one. A subtle but important distinction. Of course, it also makes sense in retrospect that Momas and the sea would be responsible (if such a word can even be applied to the Gods) for the quake/tsunami, but it does make me re-think my view of the Gods in general.

And if the World is a separate entity, have we observed its presence? Is it the Zero-God Koringhus apprehends? Is it the Darkness that comes before? Shauriatas? Or just the God of Gods itself -- and if so, what the hell is the Zero-God then? Let alone the No-God.

Many great forces are in play to some degree, most of which we know little to nothing about, and that's excluding the regular old Gods and Ciphrang and Wights and so on. I feel like some these things are the same entity under different names/interpretations (the Zero-God certainly seems like the "expression" of the Darkness, in some sense), but who can say?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hoary on June 16, 2017, 08:37:14 am
I feel like there is a hand in movement behind the Judging Eye, same one that sent Mimara to Akka, same one that is pointing to some things being more holy than others (why are snakes holy?). There is an agenda here that could be the God of Gods, or it could be the No-God. Who was it that made Akka a prophet of the past?

At some point in his dreams the No God speaks to him, so I think it may be that it IS the No-God that is behind Akka's quest, pushing them against Kellhus (unless it IS Kellhus).

The Judging eye, the No God, the Zero God, at least 2 of these are probably the same.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 17, 2017, 05:37:42 am
I feel like there is a hand in movement behind the Judging Eye, same one that sent Mimara to Akka, same one that is pointing to some things being more holy than others (why are snakes holy?). There is an agenda here that could be the God of Gods, or it could be the No-God. Who was it that made Akka a prophet of the past?

At some point in his dreams the No God speaks to him, so I think it may be that it IS the No-God that is behind Akka's quest, pushing them against Kellhus (unless it IS Kellhus).

The Judging eye, the No God, the Zero God, at least 2 of these are probably the same.

Good thoughts, and indeed I agree that there are several areas where it seems like a character or entity is playing both sides. I actually feel that Seswatha may indeed be another one of these "higher entities", and that in some sense, all who have touched the Heart basically ARE Seswatha, to a degree. The part in TTT with Kellhus hypnotizing Akka has a lot of interesting dialogue indicating such a thing (or maybe not, everything's up in the air now.

I do agree that some of these entities will collapse into each other. Zero-God/TJE seem like a given, and I suspect it may infact be the God, as Kellhus describes it to Proyas throughout TGO.

Whether those things are also the No-God, I am less certain, but I would not be surprised. A number of the No-God's characteristics seem akin to what would happen if the Daimos (possibly a Gnostic, or Meta-Gnostic, version of the Daimos) were applied in an attempt to "summon the God", and perhaps capture it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 17, 2017, 03:20:01 pm
Finally sat down and read through the preview with my coffee this morning.

Found a probably mundane mistake: "mother and sons" where it likely should read "mothers."

It's unreal the images he conjures with so few words. Even the line with that error: people drowning in Momemn trapped beneath stone. "Thousands wailing."

I've only read them through once but the only thing that stood out in chapter one was Esmi setting the WLW on Kellhus? I don't recall this.

It seems to me that that's what was going on in TGO when Kelmomas returns to Esmenet's room one night and she's there talking to the Warrior, about paying "any price." There are other scattered musing in her POV across TGO wondering how the Warrior managed to take on a half-Dunyain with such ease.

I guess Serwa wrecked the place but there's little mention of any of the events of the final showdown so to speak.

I suppose in mentioning it, we'll simple revive this controversy.

But for future generations: my bet has always been that Serwa sings sorcery despite the Agonic collar. Otherwise, it seems like there was no waiting to see who the victors were, Intact or otherwise. Serwa probably just helped Sorweel and Moenghus GTFO, rather than be killed randomly by spazzing Nonmen.

What about Meppa? Did he drown...?

Other thought: Bakker opens the book by getting rid of some of his arena's, chapter 1 ends the Momemn line through Gods' cataclysms; chapter 2 says goodbye to our Nonmen friends at Ishterebinth. This helps the Consult numerical goal along as well, huh...

My guess is that Meppa lives still but who knows with Bakker.

And Momemn is but one city, albeit the New Empire's capital. There's a line in ch. 1 regarding Esmenet asking Kellhus to drop her at Sumna because she had rallied forces there. Though, certainly, the Tally lowers.

Well that was aggravating.  Trying to read it on mobile is torture.  You only read every half page, giving just enough so you kinda follow but so little that it's more frustrating than anything else.

Reading it on mobile was a non-starter for me. I tried it a couple times.

I must say, the lamentations of the Abomination-Child are most amusing. The Prince of Hate has a great sense of humor.

Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony ;)!

Yeah but that quote doesn't appear is what i am saying. Not in that format.

Quote
“Yes, Esmi. I returned for you.”

A couple pages earlier from the point you two have been exploring.

× Did anyone notice in the What has come before part it said Moe fled Ishual.

I didn't read the WHCB but I did notice that this one is written differently than its forebears.

×These books fucking rock.

Agreed :D!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 17, 2017, 06:29:51 pm
Quote from:  Madness
Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony ;)!

Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 17, 2017, 08:16:34 pm
Quote from:  Madness
Indeed. Not-so-smart Kelmomas. You courted the trickster and are upset that you've been deceived, despite all your learning to that exact effect. Irony ;)!

Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.

To the bolded, I'm beginning to think Ajokli has no end-game - or rather, his end-game is nothing more than to continually undermine the actions of the Gods. This fits in with the trickster quality, and even perhaps the trickster-hero archetype (the most popular Western example of this is probably Loki, and I doubt the similarity in names are a coincidence).

However, Ajokli's association with hatred makes this more complex, and lends him a more Satanic quality, at least in the broad sense of "The Adversary" in Judeo-Christian myth.

While many characters in the series (really all of them to a certain degree) display hatred, the ones which first come to mind for me are Cnaiur, Kelmomas, and Aurang. But of the three, it's Aurang who seems the most purely hate-driven. Cniaur's hatred is targeted at Moenghus, and thereby Dunyain in general, and while he's not exactly friendly, he does make human connections, often in spite of himself. More importantly, the core of his hatred comes from a hatred of himself, which I think must end up being an essential part of his arc.

Kelmomas hates almost everyone aside from Esmenet (whom he arguably just hates in different way), but so much about that character's nature is a mystery that it's effectively impossible to figure out without new material.

Aurang, on the other hand, is characterized almost exclusively by hatred. His POV is consistently drawn as spiteful and contemptuous of literally everything other than those directly associated with the Consult (though we NEVER see him actually thinking about any individual members of the Consult, instead he thinks only of "Golgotterath" in general).

No idea if these ruminations are even relevant since we still don't even have a firm idea of what the Gods are, so personality traits may just be character's having "aspects" of different gods, which pretty much all of them do regardless (no character perfectly aligns into the same qualities of the Gods we have seen, aside from perhaps the No-God and Kellhus).

It may be worth noting though that Shauriatas is described almost purely through hatred, but again the sheer lack of knowledge makes it wide open.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: generalguy on June 17, 2017, 10:03:32 pm
Whale Mothers breed Dunyain. Esmenet bred Dunyain. The Ark is described as a once living thing, has qualities both aquatic and whale-esque (Nau-Cayuti trying to break a gigantic rib bone in the Seswatha dream). The Ark/Esmi is the Darkness in which Kellhus can "hide".

The Ark is a Tekne super-whale mother?

I wonder if the Ark itself is in fact still a Sentient force, possibly manifest as Shauriatas? Would fit into the idea of a Demirugic figure, an entity which (through ignorance and blindness) has mistakenly come to believe it created the World...

Easier than that my dude, Kellhus has worked out that saving his family is cool and good with the Judging Eye or w/e he considers it. See Koringhus saving his kid as being holy. They are his ticket to getting out of being judged unholy or damned.


9 dimensional chess.

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Odium on June 18, 2017, 01:38:07 am
- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: TLEILAXU on June 18, 2017, 01:55:11 am
The Inverse Fire I guess.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 18, 2017, 01:26:22 pm
Right, which many of us believed. But, what's Ajokli's endgame here? It seems as if his goals coincide with Kellhus, but that's not a definite. I think its important that Ajokli is mentioned as a companion to the Gods in the Glossary. I think that could be a clue.

To the bolded, I'm beginning to think Ajokli has no end-game - or rather, his end-game is nothing more than to continually undermine the actions of the Gods. This fits in with the trickster quality, and even perhaps the trickster-hero archetype (the most popular Western example of this is probably Loki, and I doubt the similarity in names are a coincidence).

Yeah, many a real world myth would suggest that Ajokli just wants to fuck shit up. That we have this history in-text of Ajokli "switching sides," as it were, (companion of/enemy against) could easily just mean that people who aren't fucked over by Ajokli perceive and recount their stories as if Ajokli was on their side (or the side of the gods, if there was some "morality tale," a lesson to be learned/taught, therein).

9 dimensional chess.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, General Guy ;).

- What is everyone's interpretation of "to the Idol more fearsome than its God." in the opening to the first chapter?

The Inverse Fire I guess.

The Ark itself, perhaps?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Odium on June 18, 2017, 05:38:54 pm
I'm sure it's related to the Inchoroi, I just wonder what Bakker's interpretation was when he wrote it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 18, 2017, 06:19:32 pm
Madness, FB, yea, that would seem most likely. While I think there is more to it and there's a story there. I just don't think we're likely to get it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 19, 2017, 01:13:47 am
The Ark itself, perhaps?

The Ark was my first thought, but it could be multiple things (what's new). The No-God - as in the Sarcophagus itself - could be interpreted as an Idol of the No-God, for example, or alternatively, Kellhus himself could be the Idol of the God/No-God/Whatever.

I didn't think of the Inverse Fire as MSJ suggested, but it's definitely possible given the way it does seem to be the object most precious to the Inchoroi (even the skin-spies refer to themselves as Keepers of the Inverse Fire). Well, aside from perhaps the Heron Spear...

Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 19, 2017, 08:38:51 am
First off the song is shite, i'd never get the clubs bouncing.

Secondly it is talking about the arc i think or the ark.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Duskweaver on June 19, 2017, 08:48:42 pm
I feel like an "ancient Kuniuric harvest song" is very unlikely to be referencing the No-God, since by the time Mog-Pharau actually walked, the Kuniuri were no longer in a position to be singing songs about agricultural work. Laments about stillborn children maybe, but not much else.

No, the song logically dates from the time of the First Great Ordeal, when Kuniuric men were "lured away" to join Celmomas II's holy war against the Consult 20 years before the birth of the No-God.

Personally, I think the Idol in the song is simply War, more fearsome (to the Kuniuric farmer women whose husbands just up and left) than Gilgaol himself.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 19, 2017, 08:57:37 pm
Yay, Duskweaver ;D!
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 21, 2017, 06:46:47 am
FB, thought you would find this interesting. From Koringhus.

“As much as they resembled the Dûnyain, the Shriekers were actually their antithesis, a race honed to give perfect expression to the darkness that comes before. Where the Dûnyain reached for infinity, the Shriekers embodied zero.”

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” The Overlook Press, 2016-07-12T04:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: locke on June 21, 2017, 03:24:38 pm
Yeah I just heard that Bit in my listening to the audio book. Makes me think the zero God theorem from later in the novel is a complete red herring . Koringhus found it as impossible as nonmen to suicide so he needed the delusion the judging eye temporarily offered him to do it.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 21, 2017, 03:28:51 pm
It seems the Qirri had some effect as well.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Walter on June 21, 2017, 04:02:52 pm
I dunno, Dunyain don't seem to have any trouble committing suicide in the normal course of things.  Moengus's peers did so without ceremony.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Conditioned on June 23, 2017, 11:58:54 pm
I remember that when TGO was released, someone found it at Barnes and Noble like 2 or 3 weeks early which made me check my local store and get it way earlier than I anticipated. I don't suppose anyone has had any luck finding an early copy of The Unholy Consult anywhere?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on June 24, 2017, 01:46:51 am
Didn't know where to put this, but during my reread of TGO last night, I saw mention of Ioyukus. When they were preparing for battle at Dagliash. I just thought I'd mention it because so many have been asking about the man. Wrong thread I know, didn't really think any place would be better. :)
“The Blind Necromancer Heramari Iyokus followed in the van with the Scarlet Spires.”

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” The Overlook Press, 2016-07-12T04:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Francis Buck on June 24, 2017, 06:11:54 am
Didn't know where to put this, but during my reread of TGO last night, I saw mention of Ioyukus. When they were preparing for battle at Dagliash. I just thought I'd mention it because so many have been asking about the man. Wrong thread I know, didn't really think any place would be better. :)
“The Blind Necromancer Heramari Iyokus followed in the van with the Scarlet Spires.”

Excerpt From: R. Scott Bakker. “The Great Ordeal.” The Overlook Press, 2016-07-12T04:00:00+00:00. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Very nice catch. The way Iyokus has been teased for literally all of TAE series just makes his eventual reappearance in TUC all the more likely (I'd be stunned if he didn't at least appear on-screen). Though the function he will ultimately play is interestingly varied. He seems ripe for turning over to the Consult, but that's based on his characterization 20 years ago. Since it's clear that Kellhus has at least three Ciphrang in his control, and we know that Iyokus helped Kellhus in his ventures to the Outside, I could see his POV having been withheld so long because of the insights he must have gleaned. Plus, given our new understanding of Ciphrang from TGO, the title of "Necromancer" makes a bit more sense while simultaneously producing a bunch of new questions.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: CondYoke on June 24, 2017, 12:52:26 pm
I asked at my B&N when it would be on the shelf. They said July 11, but I'm gonna check on the shelf a week early just in case...
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Madness on June 24, 2017, 01:00:27 pm
I remember that when TGO was released, someone found it at Barnes and Noble like 2 or 3 weeks early which made me check my local store and get it way earlier than I anticipated. I don't suppose anyone has had any luck finding an early copy of The Unholy Consult anywhere?

I asked at my B&N when it would be on the shelf. They said July 11, but I'm gonna check on the shelf a week early just in case...

I'd bet that you'll be able to walk into a store and either find it on the shelves early or catch some plucky employee who will fetch it from the back before release date ;).

EDIT: If I were in UK, I'd already be looking.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 24, 2017, 02:45:36 pm
Nah I'm getting mine on 6th July. I've dealt with that now.

my madness would know no bridle if i started hunting bookshops for it. Plus the 5 days of having to hold my tongue on here is long enough.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Wilshire on June 24, 2017, 08:47:49 pm
I remember that when TGO was released, someone found it at Barnes and Noble like 2 or 3 weeks early which made me check my local store and get it way earlier than I anticipated. I don't suppose anyone has had any luck finding an early copy of The Unholy Consult anywhere?
;) got about 8 copies or so a few weeks early from B&N.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: incuroi on June 24, 2017, 11:12:47 pm
sorry for the late response but here's what i meant by the whale mother issue.

See this whole time we worked under the assumption that fertility in earwa works that same as the way it does on earth, which is why the issue of whale mothers doesn't make sense, but in one line in chapter 2 of the unholy consult Kayutas states that women are soil for men's seed which is why Moenghus's assumption that he looks like Esmenet doesn't make since and also why he look mostly like Cnaiur and not Serwa. Everyone in earwa are their father's children.

in fact rereading the books there is almost never an example of a character looking like their mother, they always resemble their father. if we therefore follow with the assumption that men are the givers of life and women just carry the children to term than the conundrum we've been suffering makes sense. The reason why serwe and theli don't make sense in the face of our knowledge about the whale mothers is not because of some hereditary exception with them being half-dunyain allowing them to still be functional, instead there is no such thing as a half-dunyain. The children of Khellus are full dunyain born to poor soil i.e Esmenet, she is one of the few human to be fertile enough ground to carry one to term, most simply don't or are born deformed, but she is still poor ground for dunyain seed compared to a whale mother. In the case of the whale mothers the reason they can birth dunyain children without them so much as resembling whale mothers is because again children take on their fathers trait not their mothers. As for how whale mothers are made? i'm guessing there is one male germ amongst the duyain that carries the trait for wide hips and short limb and that germ is used to produce more whale mothers and nothing else, women born to whale mother but not having that trait i'm guessing are either made useful or disposed of. When you think about it, early in the series we have multiple people commenting on how khellus looks like celmomas, why is that? for the same reason as all the other people, they are their fathers children.

but one issue has been bothering me since following this train of thought, one splintering issue. the only person that i know of in the whole series to be described as looking like their mother is Mimara, and at first that was a hole in my reasoning. Then it hit me! Mimara does not look like Esmenet, she looks like Esmenet's father. Mimara is not just Esmenet's daughter she is also her sister, both are of the same father, it was even mentioned early in the series that Esmenet's father forced himself on her, Mimara is the child of rape/incest. This whole time the reason Esmi didn't want to tell Mimara the identity of her father is because it's her grandfather, and that realization would only be further heartbreak for Mimara, and in Mimara's mind another reason why Esmenet sold her, and another crime Mimara can levy on her. Worst if we follow that train Mimara is reenacting that very situation with Acha without even knowing it.       
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on June 25, 2017, 03:47:25 pm
There is talk in earlier books about how "when the seed is strong" the womb acts as a mere vessel. I doubt it applies to everyone, though.

Where is it said that Esmenet's father forced himself on her?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: geoffrobro on June 25, 2017, 06:02:05 pm
Very Interesting Incuroi. I like where your ideas are going
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Wilshire on June 28, 2017, 03:37:03 am
There is talk in earlier books about how "when the seed is strong" the womb acts as a mere vessel. I doubt it applies to everyone, though.

Where is it said that Esmenet's father forced himself on her?

The quote is "the strong seed forces the womb".

I don't recall that line either.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: incuroi on June 28, 2017, 05:56:48 am
it was in the first book i believe and it was mentioned off-hand, though i could be wrong.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Walter on June 28, 2017, 01:29:09 pm
I mean, they are super sexist, right?  Like, whether there was or was not a weighting in favor of the dad the people of Earwa are gonna believe there is.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on June 28, 2017, 07:19:17 pm
Nah I'm getting mine on 6th July. I've dealt with that now.

my madness would know no bridle if i started hunting bookshops for it. Plus the 5 days of having to hold my tongue on here is long enough.

I tell the most delicious lies.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Walter on June 28, 2017, 08:00:00 pm
Like a rug.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hiro on July 03, 2017, 07:44:21 pm
In the WHGB of TUC, I found this, concerning Yatwer arming Sorweel:

Quote
She also provides a murder weapon: a pouch that conceals sorcery-killing Chorae from sorcerous eyes.

Did I miss the pouch that conceals Choreae...? Or is this new?

Also,

Quote
Disaster strikes the westernmost contingent of the Host at Irsûlor, and the Great Ordeal loses a full quarter of their contingent, as well as the Vokalati, a Major School.

Should that not be the easternmost contingent?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on July 03, 2017, 09:54:20 pm
The pouch is the one with the dragon claw mark on it, the one sorweel gets when his slave takes him to meet yatwer.

I think it should be eastern, as they were southron but then the GO re-orientated itself and they were on the eastern flank.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Hiro on July 03, 2017, 10:38:14 pm
The pouch is the one with the dragon claw mark on it, the one sorweel gets when his slave takes him to meet yatwer.

I think it should be eastern, as they were southron but then the GO re-orientated itself and they were on the eastern flank.

I understand that the Chorae was contained in a pouch, I did not understand that it had special properties. Was that anywhere in the text?
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: themerchant on July 04, 2017, 01:56:05 am
The pouch is the one with the dragon claw mark on it, the one sorweel gets when his slave takes him to meet yatwer.

I think it should be eastern, as they were southron but then the GO re-orientated itself and they were on the eastern flank.

I understand that the Chorae was contained in a pouch, I did not understand that it had special properties. Was that anywhere in the text?

Yeah he went to see Serwe and and she couldn't detect it in the pouch, Sorweel ruminates on it, probably in WLW somewhere.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MSJ on July 04, 2017, 02:50:47 am
The pouch is the one with the dragon claw mark on it, the one sorweel gets when his slave takes him to meet yatwer.

I think it should be eastern, as they were southron but then the GO re-orientated itself and they were on the eastern flank.

I understand that the Chorae was contained in a pouch, I did not understand that it had special properties. Was that anywhere in the text?

Yeah he went to see Serwe and and she couldn't detect it in the pouch, Sorweel ruminates on it, probably in WLW somewhere.

Then he gave it to Zsoronga and we don't see him at all in TGO, makes one curious.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Wilshire on July 05, 2017, 02:59:56 pm
The pouch is the one with the dragon claw mark on it, the one sorweel gets when his slave takes him to meet yatwer.

I think it should be eastern, as they were southron but then the GO re-orientated itself and they were on the eastern flank.

I understand that the Chorae was contained in a pouch, I did not understand that it had special properties. Was that anywhere in the text?

Yeah he went to see Serwe and and she couldn't detect it in the pouch, Sorweel ruminates on it, probably in WLW somewhere.
Yeah WLW, Sorweel is in Serwe's tent alone, briefly, and he muses that he has the pouch on him and Serwe doesn't seem to be aware of him carrying a chorae or that she is in immediate danger as he was planning on killing her at the time.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: MisterGuyMan on July 05, 2017, 03:17:16 pm
Just wanted to share my backup plan for getting this book tonight.  I was going to download the VPN service, TunnelBear, which has a free 7 day trial.  I would use it to mask my IP address to be a UK address and then download the ebook from this website.

I would have tried it as soon as the clock struck midnight in the UK tonight and immediately shared my results with the people here if I succeeded but USPS' site just confirmed my UK book order is already out for delivery so I might not have to do this. 
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Wilshire on July 05, 2017, 03:35:14 pm
Just wanted to share my backup plan for getting this book tonight.  I was going to download the VPN service, TunnelBear, which has a free 7 day trial.  I would use it to mask my IP address to be a UK address and then download the ebook from this website.

I would have tried it as soon as the clock struck midnight in the UK tonight and immediately shared my results with the people here if I succeeded but USPS' site just confirmed my UK book order is already out for delivery so I might not have to do this. 
Such great lengths! Thanks for offering to share your experience.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: Anwurat on July 08, 2017, 03:33:32 am
Quote
in fact rereading the books there is almost never an example of a character looking like their mother, they always resemble their father.

Currently reading TUC, I came across this,

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 11, 2017, 01:55:23 pm
For those who have TUC, can you confirm if the excerpt available on the Amazon website (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unholy-Consult-Aspect-Emperor-Aspect-Emperor/dp/0356508714/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499781154&sr=8-1&keywords=the+unholy+consult) contains the complete 2nd chapter? Because it seems to me that, while it is a bit longer than the kobo version, it doesn't quite end as it should if it was the whole chapter.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 02:05:04 pm
For those who have TUC, can you confirm if the excerpt available on the Amazon website (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unholy-Consult-Aspect-Emperor-Aspect-Emperor/dp/0356508714/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499781154&sr=8-1&keywords=the+unholy+consult) contains the complete 2nd chapter? Because it seems to me that, while it is a bit longer than the kobo version, it doesn't quite end as it should if it was the whole chapter.

Can't get it to show up for me.  Let me know what words it ends on and I'll check.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 11, 2017, 02:16:25 pm
Can't get it to show up for me.  Let me know what words it ends on and I'll check.

It ends with this sentence:

Quote
And his past had yet to be rewritten, the history of hating and, yes, even plotting against the Aspect-Emperor, this man who dared the Gods in the name of Men.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: H on July 11, 2017, 02:18:41 pm
Can't get it to show up for me.  Let me know what words it ends on and I'll check.

It ends with this sentence:

Quote
And his past had yet to be rewritten, the history of hating and, yes, even plotting against the Aspect-Emperor, this man who dared the Gods in the name of Men.

Then it is not all of Chapter 2, there is a fair bit to go after that.
Title: Re: [TUC Spoilers] Ch. 1 & 2 Excerpts
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on July 11, 2017, 03:06:37 pm
Then it is not all of Chapter 2, there is a fair bit to go after that.

So my suspicions were confirmed, thanks, H. :)