Miscellaneous Questions about TTT Glossary

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mrganondorf

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« on: March 26, 2014, 12:59:19 am »
Looking through the TTT glossary:

- Fane: he's doing his thing about 300 years before TDTCB, about the same time the Consult goes silent/begins using skin spies exclusively.  Coincidence?

- Mangaecca: looking for all the Gin'yursis references, only found this one.  More?

- Miracle: there's two miracles of Kellhus listed and there's supposed to be a third, what is it?

- Onkis: I came here to verify the bit about her being the deity of the darkness that comes before, did not find!  Plase halp.

- Schools: anyone have any info on this so called major school, Circle of Nibel?  Anything about any minor schools?  Anything about pre-swayali witches?

EDIT: more questions:

- Ajencis: happens before, not too long before the Dunyain.  They are his genes?

- Apocalypse: I feel extremely stupid admitting this, but I never noticed that TDTCB starts with the bastard at 2147 and the first apocalypse ends at 2155.  What were the Dunyain doing for those first few years with the womb plague stillborn years going on?  I think I assumed that the plague that killed nearly everyone in Ishual was the same plague that resulted from the No-God's death.

- Mygella, Anasurimbor: the entry is short - "(2065-2111)--The famed Hero-King of Aorsi, whose deeds are recounted in the Sagas."  There's no mention of him in the Sagas entry.  Any more info?

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 12:35:13 pm »
Looking through the TTT glossary:

- Fane: he's doing his thing about 300 years before TDTCB, about the same time the Consult goes silent/begins using skin spies exclusively.  Coincidence?

- Mangaecca: looking for all the Gin'yursis references, only found this one.  More?

- Miracle: there's two miracles of Kellhus listed and there's supposed to be a third, what is it?

- Onkis: I came here to verify the bit about her being the deity of the darkness that comes before, did not find!  Plase halp.

- Schools: anyone have any info on this so called major school, Circle of Nibel?  Anything about any minor schools?  Anything about pre-swayali witches?

EDIT: more questions:

- Ajencis: happens before, not too long before the Dunyain.  They are his genes?

- Apocalypse: I feel extremely stupid admitting this, but I never noticed that TDTCB starts with the bastard at 2147 and the first apocalypse ends at 2155.  What were the Dunyain doing for those first few years with the womb plague going on?  I think I assumed that the plague that killed nearly everyone in Ishual was the same plague that resulted from the No-God's death.

- Mygella, Anasurimbor: the entry is short - "(2065-2111)--The famed Hero-King of Aorsi, whose deeds are recounted in the Sagas."  There's no mention of him in the Sagas entry.  Any more info?

1) Maybe?
2) Out of text but...
3) Yeah, considering the Heart/Circumfix is only number two, I'd really like to know what the third was.
4) It's Inrau POV, TDTCB, Ch. 4:

Quote from: TDTCB, p132
Onkis, the Singer-in-the-Dark, the Aspect who stood at the heart of all men, moving them to forever grasp far more than they could hold ... Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thoughts arose. She came before him.

5) Nope, nope, and nope.
6) And Sejenus happens right after the Apocalypse. What you saying ;)?
7) Training. Hiding from the end of the World. Though, the prologue omnipresent POV kind of gives the indication that the Dunyain felt assured of future generations. And it's not the Womb Plague, it's the Years of the Crib - a couple thousand years apart. We might assume but we do not know why the Womb Plague killed only females (except that the White Plague is a Herbert book where a single man engineers a virus to kill all the women in the world ;)) and we don't know why the No-God disturbs the birthing of souls into the world...
8 ) I assume the Ancient House Anasurimbor won't become much more fleshed out. That's why I hope for a future stand-alone of the First Apocalypse.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 11:32:50 pm »
2) Tanks!  Forgot, but I had read that and posted in there.
3) Thank you for confirming that I didn't just miss it
4) Awesome--was looking for that!
7) Oh yeah, not the womb plague.  It's weird to me that the Dunyain wouldn't pass down the knowledge of the death of birth.  It's like "yeah we're going to keep the breeding program going unless that thing happens again, and then we'll just do something else."  I bet the Pragma know.

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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2014, 12:03:09 pm »
7) Oh yeah, not the womb plague.  It's weird to me that the Dunyain wouldn't pass down the knowledge of the death of birth.  It's like "yeah we're going to keep the breeding program going unless that thing happens again, and then we'll just do something else."  I bet the Pragma know.

"Unless that thing happens again" - Lol.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2014, 12:29:02 pm »
Quote
6) And Sejenus happens right after the Apocalypse. What you saying ;)?

Maybe the Dunyain program had been going on time out of mind and Ajencis and Sejenus were just early works?  Sent out into the world to prepare the way.  Also Fane.  Also Triamis.

Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 05:32:44 pm »
Miracle 3 might have been his sudden appearance over Shimeh, turning the tides on an inevitable loss into a crucial victory?

First two are water in the desert and Cirumfixtion I assume.... Other than what I mentioned I'm not sure what else it could be.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2014, 12:54:03 pm »
Miracle 3 might have been his sudden appearance over Shimeh, turning the tides on an inevitable loss into a crucial victory?

First two are water in the desert and Cirumfixtion I assume.... Other than what I mentioned I'm not sure what else it could be.

I always assumed that an act of explicit sorcery couldn't be the Third Miracle?

Plus, Kellhus could have arranged for an even better miracle than the Circumfix during the twenty-year gap, once he started to figure out the boundaries and rules between the Outside and the World.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 02:09:34 pm »
I considered that, but I think TTT glossary is strictly contained within PoN. If and AE glossary was published there might be 5 or even 10 miracles, but I think the hunt for the 3rd should stay within the tomes of the first trilogy.

And sorcery Kell's sorcery could have been considered a miracle, especially by the end of TTT when he had the Holy War firmly under his thumb. His sudden appearance with a burst of light is strikingly similar to Sejenus' supposed ascension. Even if it was later explained by "mundane" sorcery, at the time of TTT glossary writing it was most probably believed that the act was sanctioned by God(s).

Any act that can be explained without invoking deities does not mean that a God was somehow involved. Even IRL a scientific explanation for anything can be explained by believers as God working through mundane means to accomplish whatever goals it has in mind. Its not hard to imagine Earwa's inhabitants to be similarly convinced that regardless of what Kellhus does and the explanations that are offered, believers will always simply believe it was somehow divinely sanctioned.




I can't think of many 'miraculous' events that took place after the circumfixtion. Winning that next battle, with men exhausted and nearly starved to death, might be an option. Maybe his unification of all the great names, the Thousand Temples, and the schools (at least the Mandate) could be another. Or his (re)discovery of the Consult.

Other than that I can't think of anything of great importance that might be considered Kell's miracle.
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mrganondorf

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locke

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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 03:59:32 pm »
I doubt it but the only possibility I see for a miracle is the miraculous spiritual healing of Esmenet, Kellhus forgives her sins, she describes the experience as her soul being scraped clean, this also encompasses Kellhus altering the chronicle of the tusk.  Miracle.

Wilshire

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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 08:30:00 pm »
I doubt it but the only possibility I see for a miracle is the miraculous spiritual healing of Esmenet, Kellhus forgives her sins, she describes the experience as her soul being scraped clean, this also encompasses Kellhus altering the chronicle of the tusk.  Miracle.

Thats a good one, especially Esmi, but I thought the did his re-writing post-TTT.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 01:08:31 pm »
Miracle 3 might have been his sudden appearance over Shimeh, turning the tides on an inevitable loss into a crucial victory?

First two are water in the desert and Cirumfixtion I assume.... Other than what I mentioned I'm not sure what else it could be.

I bet you're right.  Meta-gnostic might be considered a "miracle."  The omission is just so curious.  The interval between the first two miracles is so short, it would be weird if the third miracle was 10 years later.  I'm guessing Kellhus is the one who frames it as proof of his divinity, so the third one would help cement his status at the end of TTT, the crowning.

Wilshire

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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 05:43:52 pm »
So much manipulation, the Glossary is just one more tool of deception.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 10:06:33 am »
I always thought the three miracles are (1) the prophecy of the Shrial Knights (2) water in the desert (3) Circumfixion

Mygella was Nimeric's dad.  Died before the ordeal.  See entry for Aorsi.  Hints that Celmomas was involved in their fall (although likely through inaction than direct betrayal) despite being allied.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 10:11:27 am by Cüréthañ »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 01:13:09 pm »
Saubon, and even Kellhus, thought that first one a mirical, but strangely enough its missing from the list, and Water/Circumfix are listed as 1st/2nd respectively.
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