The Second Apocalypse
Other Titles => Disciple Manning Novels => Disciple of the Dog => Topic started by: Francis Buck on January 04, 2014, 05:09:17 am
-
I started this last night. It's my first non-TSA book by Bakker. I figured it'd be good to have a sort of "miscellaneous thoughts" thread for the book.
My initial reaction, copy/pasted from Westeros:
Anyways, I read the Kindle sample of Disciple of the Dog, then bought the book on a whim. I'm maybe forty-ish pages in, and rather enjoying it to be honest. I can tell Bakker's trying to be funny, and I did smirk here and there, but it's more just a casual amusement rather than genuine humor. But it's definitely well-written, the basic plot is interesting so far, and I'm enjoying the experience of reading Bakker's prose from first person, and without the (what I think is) often somewhat forced feeling "scriptural tone" of TSA.
I will post my other thoughts upon completion, but for now I have one question: is there any word of this becoming a series?
ETA: Oh, and one thing I meant to mention earlier is that I happen to live in PA, and it's amusing to me because Disciple's (and other characters') way of speaking sounds very...well, not from PA. Maybe it's Canadian? The biggest one was the use of "bloody" (like, "this guy's bloody ugly"). For me that's distinctly European. Is it common for people to say it in Canada? Just curious.
Of course this is wildly irrelevant to the quality of the story, it's just something I had to touch on.
-
Gall, FB.
Just read his books - haters gonna hate ;). I give them my stamp of approval.
[EDIT: Especially, read the Light, Time, & Gravity draft on TPB, if you want to pick up writing tips from Bakker's works (though, Neuropath will always be among my favorites).
Lmao, segue, but I was just reminded of the time I was in Tim Horton's on break from work and made the terrible mistake of approaching a girl who happened to be reading Neuropath. I assumed she was reading a book because she was interested in, you know, what she was reading. I instantaneously realized my mistake as the look of horror came across her face while she connected me to the disturbing content of the book - apparently, a friend, who she was considering never talking to again, had recommended it to her (don't ask me why someone would keep reading, if such was their logic). Suffice it to say, no date after work that night.]
I started this last night. It's my first non-TSA book by Bakker. I figured it'd be good to have a sort of "miscellaneous thoughts" thread for the book.
Thanks, FB. Though I do hope you partake in the mixtape breakdown and analyses at some point.
My initial reaction, copy/pasted from Westeros:
Anyways, I read the Kindle sample of Disciple of the Dog, then bought the book on a whim. I'm maybe forty-ish pages in, and rather enjoying it to be honest. I can tell Bakker's trying to be funny, and I did smirk here and there, but it's more just a casual amusement rather than genuine humor. But it's definitely well-written, the basic plot is interesting so far, and I'm enjoying the experience of reading Bakker's prose from first person, and without the (what I think is) often somewhat forced feeling "scriptural tone" of TSA.
I will post my other thoughts upon completion, but for now I have one question: is there any word of this becoming a series?
Do remember, Bakker thought this was going to be his vehicle to the mainstream. He seems to have worked on a stable voice for himself, something equal parts witty, cynic, armchair philosopher and psychologist. But... he's probably just flying to low on the radar of what's known today.
So yeah, there's the Enlightened Dead, which he's mentioned on the blog, and I was once privy to the title of a third, of which he's written some of both (Disciple only took him three months, arguably while writing WLW, so he definitely thought to attempt a money-making vehicle).
It's unfortunate.
ETA: Oh, and one thing I meant to mention earlier is that I happen to live in PA, and it's amusing to me because Disciple's (and other characters') way of speaking sounds very...well, not from PA. Maybe it's Canadian? The biggest one was the use of "bloody" (like, "this guy's bloody ugly"). For me that's distinctly European. Is it common for people to say it in Canada? Just curious.
Of course this is wildly irrelevant to the quality of the story, it's just something I had to touch on.
It's Canadian. And that particular one isn't super-common.
You have to understand, we basically appropriate any type of English word, in any language, dialect, or creole, which sounds pleasing to our ears. Hell, we even do it with French and just repeat expressions until they take on a new slang meaning ;).
-
I love Tim Hortens (they removed the apostrophe a while ago didn't they?). Wish there were any where I'm at.
Happy reading FB. I thought they whole thing was pretty hilarious, but that's my type of humor.
-
Lol - don't hate me buddy but I cut the umbilical about a 6 months ago. Been drinking nothing but fair trade at the three good local shops :).
-
Alright then, I finished it last night. After digesting a little, I'd say that, overall, I thought it was only decent. There were flickers of greatness here and there, and I suspect that if this had been more of a "main project", rather than a side-one that he wrote in three months, it likely would have turned pretty fantastic. Regardless, I still found it an enjoyable and occasionally amusing read. My thoughts:
- Disciple, as a character, was pretty well realized. I didn't really like his "voice" though. I found it...I'm not sure, grating. The idioms and stuff put me off a bit, and in general there was an air of someone that thinks they're utterly hilarious, but really isn't. I get that Bakker wasn't exactly trying to make a super likable guy here, and I certainly don't need likable characters to enjoy literature by any means, but I felt like Diss just wasn't quite properly executed. The humor is a big thing. I think I just have a somewhat different sense of humor than Bakker or something, at least in the way it translates through his writing. TSA is virtually without levity for me, aside from the absurdity of Xerius's personality and the batshit craziness of Cnaiur. In DotD, I genuinely laughed maybe two or threes times. One was when he said (in reference to the size of Baars' mouth): "I tried to picture him eating a hamburger -- couldn't do it".
- The plot was good, but I did not find the ending very satisfying to be honest. The twists, while surprising, didn't have a lot of oomph for me.
- By far the best parts of the novel are the sequences when he's replaying old scenes in his head, but with a new context. That stuff was a great, and it's a brilliant literary device.
- None of the characters did much for me aside from Diss, Baars, and the cop (having a brain-lapse here on his name). The latter, especially, was very well done. I loved the scene where he draws X's on the map, and all Diss can think about is how gay they look. That got a good chuckle out of me too. I found Molly boring. I'm also still made uncomfortable with Bakker's writing about women. I don't know what it is in particular, but it just...I don't know, makes me feel sticky.
- I liked that, in a weird way, Diss does very little the entire novel that really contributes to the case. He basically just smokes pot and figures everything out in his head while watching CNN, but by then it doesn't even matter. This might be the most hilarious part of the book, really.
- Diss starts farting when he gets into dangerous situations. Brilliantly subversive of genre tropes.
So yeah, those are my off the cuff thoughts. I do have more, particularly in regards to the ties with TSA (especially concepts of memory, of course), but I'm short on time. Again, it was an entertaining read, but I feel like it just lacked enough polish in the big areas (plot, characters, resolution) to be considered a real success. I'd definitely be interested in reading a sequel.
-
Just read Neuropath FB, it will scare you shitless:)
-
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
-
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
It is not directly frightening on a personal level, more that the ideas on neuroscientific development are not really fiction.
These methods might be used some day, and that scares me.
-
I find that hard to believe given what I know of Bakker's philosophy and the novel itself, but it's certainly on my list. I'd enjoy being genuinely scared shitless by some fiction.
It'll always be one of my favorites. It made me wish that Bakker would try his hand at horror and provided another layer of excitement whenever I read the shades of Neuropath in TSA.
Alright then, I finished it last night. After digesting a little, I'd say that, overall, I thought it was only decent. There were flickers of greatness here and there, and I suspect that if this had been more of a "main project", rather than a side-one that he wrote in three months, it likely would have turned pretty fantastic. Regardless, I still found it an enjoyable and occasionally amusing read.
His plan allegedly was to balance something he could write while maintaining all the ongoing projects.
I would hope that Bakker also had an overarching idea for some fitting Moriarty character. It was what it was. Disciple came out before WLW. He's probably dead :(.
My thoughts:
- Disciple, as a character, was pretty well realized. I didn't really like his "voice" though. I found it...I'm not sure, grating. The idioms and stuff put me off a bit, and in general there was an air of someone that thinks they're utterly hilarious, but really isn't. I get that Bakker wasn't exactly trying to make a super likable guy here, and I certainly don't need likable characters to enjoy literature by any means, but I felt like Diss just wasn't quite properly executed. The humor is a big thing. I think I just have a somewhat different sense of humor than Bakker or something, at least in the way it translates through his writing. TSA is virtually without levity for me, aside from the absurdity of Xerius's personality and the batshit craziness of Cnaiur. In DotD, I genuinely laughed maybe two or threes times. One was when he said (in reference to the size of Baars' mouth): "I tried to picture him eating a hamburger -- couldn't do it".
Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.
Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.
- The plot was good, but I did not find the ending very satisfying to be honest. The twists, while surprising, didn't have a lot of oomph for me.
- By far the best parts of the novel are the sequences when he's replaying old scenes in his head, but with a new context. That stuff was a great, and it's a brilliant literary device.
- None of the characters did much for me aside from Diss, Baars, and the cop (having a brain-lapse here on his name). The latter, especially, was very well done. I loved the scene where he draws X's on the map, and all Diss can think about is how gay they look. That got a good chuckle out of me too. I found Molly boring. I'm also still made uncomfortable with Bakker's writing about women. I don't know what it is in particular, but it just...I don't know, makes me feel sticky.
- I liked that, in a weird way, Diss does very little the entire novel that really contributes to the case. He basically just smokes pot and figures everything out in his head while watching CNN, but by then it doesn't even matter. This might be the most hilarious part of the book, really.
- Diss starts farting when he gets into dangerous situations. Brilliantly subversive of genre tropes.
So yeah, those are my off the cuff thoughts. I do have more, particularly in regards to the ties with TSA (especially concepts of memory, of course), but I'm short on time. Again, it was an entertaining read, but I feel like it just lacked enough polish in the big areas (plot, characters, resolution) to be considered a real success. I'd definitely be interested in reading a sequel.
- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.
- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.
- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).
- I thought that this felt the like the overall thrust of the book and something I've tried to breakdown in the mixtape (as far as I've gotten). Disciple fits some of the traditional modes in many creative ways. In a surprising amount of detective fiction, the detective doesn't actually affect any solution in his interaction with the case, only offers the most comprehensive description of what has occurred. Also, the detective is notorious for introducing violence into the world he enters, by his presence (for instance, all the things that occurred with the Church of the Third Reich that would not have happened but for Disciple).
- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.
Just thoughts. You're the third person to muse openly about Disciple.
But I am excited and on my way to being late.
Cheers, FB, Royce.
-
Interesting. What did you think about the strength of individual metaphors? Many of his comparisons make me smile or laugh, possibly more-so than the intended humor between the characters.
Also, I thought the small-town, Third Reich Church, pretty humourous.
Bakker's pretty great with metaphors in general. As far as DotG goes though, I can't say anything really stood out to me in particular, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.
- The plot seems to establish what it needed to as an introduction to the character. I was also surprised by the ending (which I liked) but then I realized Bakker had more books planned.
Yeah, I can see what you mean in the context of this being an introduction to a series. I'm not really sure what it was about the ending exactly, but it just lacked oomph for me. The resolution to the mystery and all, I don't know, it fell a bit flat I guess.
- I too enjoy the fictive device. I was excited for the inevitable cross-section of his memories and his war buddy story, which I'm sure Bakker would dole out over successive novels.
That's an interesting point, regarding the war buddy. I was actually wondering after reading it why that character didn't seem to have any "arc" so to speak (not really the right word), but again it definitely makes more sense in thinking of this as an introductory novel.
- I actually have studied detective fiction a bit and Bakker's par for the course. He consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers. But the history of detective fiction is notoriously misogynist. The women is always guilty of something. And realistically, I could spend some time reading different sections of Disciple to give them better analysis because I feel like Disciple's commentary is more than half the gold in the book. Disciple is talking to the people in our world (though, I can understand how colloquialisms annoy people).
Can you elaborate on how he "consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers"? Not really sure what you mean. As for it being par for the course, while that's true, it's just the way Bakker writes that gets to me. It's the same exact thing in TSA. I mean, I don't think Bakker is literally some kind of woman hating misogynist or anything, but I also can't ignore that the same faint air of...I don't know, almost casual sexism (like he doesn't even realize it), happens to pop up again in a completely separate work. And hell, if he's subverting all these other detective genre tropes, why not subvert that one? It's just weird to me. But, I digress, I don't want this to turn into a huge "Bakker-and-misogyny" thing simply because I've been through the debate too many times and I'm kinda weary of it.
- Farts are subversive. But there is more depth. I think, you underestimate the man's commitment to dismantling genre tropes.
Elaborate?
ETA: Started to read Neuropath today as well, actually got about half-way through. It's...interesting. Not sure how I feel about it quite yet, I'll post my thoughts when I'm done though.
-
Bakker's pretty great with metaphors in general. As far as DotG goes though, I can't say anything really stood out to me in particular, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.
I've been picking some of my favorites in the Mixtape (though, many more of the quotes are obviously to further the plot of the summaries or record pertinent evidence).
Yeah, I can see what you mean in the context of this being an introduction to a series. I'm not really sure what it was about the ending exactly, but it just lacked oomph for me. The resolution to the mystery and all, I don't know, it fell a bit flat I guess.
It definitely seems the first mystery of a memorable series. That seemed the point of framing the whole thing as journalistic therapy and that this was the story Disciple chose to tell as starter.
That's an interesting point, regarding the war buddy. I was actually wondering after reading it why that character didn't seem to have any "arc" so to speak (not really the right word), but again it definitely makes more sense in thinking of this as an introductory novel.
If I picked characters connected to any person or organization pulling the strings behind the scenes to exploit Disciple's memory for some nefarious purpose, I'd pick the war buddy (Lol - damnit, what's his name... where's my Disciple?) or Mr. Bonjour.
Can you elaborate on how he "consciously built up the misogyny aspects of his blog during that time and gave Disciple a few disclaimers"?
Well, a number of his posts that summer felt written in a particular voice and then it became apparent that that voice was Disciple's. He made a whole bunch of commentary, in theme of "if my critics think TSA and Neuropath are bad for misogyny, Disciple is going to really get to them."
Not really sure what you mean. As for it being par for the course, while that's true, it's just the way Bakker writes that gets to me. It's the same exact thing in TSA. But I mean, I don't think Bakker is literally some kind of woman hating misogynist or anything, but I also can't ignore that the same faint air of...I don't know, almost casual sexism (like he doesn't even realize it), happens to pop up again in a completely separate work.
The one thing that gets me about the accusations of sexism is that everyone just recognizes it for what it is. Really? Because I seriously doubt that if people sat around and defined their versions of sexism in the same conversation that they throw criticisms at one person, they'd realize that they don't agree on anything at all.
However, I specifically meant that in the sense that Detective Fiction as a genre maintains a gendered narrative scheme and Bakker is trying to somehow consciously exploit that.
And hell, if he's subverting all these other detective genre tropes, why not subvert that one? It's just weird to me. But, I digress, I don't want this to turn into a huge "Bakker-and-misogyny" thing simply because I've been through the debate too many times and I'm kinda weary of it.
I think he is trying to subvert that one. I haven't spent enough time with Disciple to offer an cogent argument but I'm working on it.
The way I see it, FB, people with schticks tend to stick with them; I respect Bakker because I never expect him to use his talent to simply entertain us.
As for the weariness? Trying to convince people to consider alternatives to what they resolutely believe is basically fruitless. That doesn't mean to me that I shouldn't stop trying to reach people.
Elaborate?
Just because Bakker intended it to be quick and painless to write and to sell doesn't mean it lacks depth. I expect Bakker stuck to his mode of operation, figured out the skeletal commons of detective fiction and then worked to play with that somehow while communicating to a certain demographic (Canadians first and foremost, or North Americans - though again, native stylistic colloquialisms are such a part of our we express ourselves and will always be disorienting for people who don't share them).
ETA: Started to read Neuropath today as well, actually got about half-way through. It's...interesting. Not sure how I feel about it quite yet, I'll post my thoughts when I'm done though.
Sweet.
-
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.
-
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.
I don't think you're ignorant, and I definitely agree that if you're looking for something in particular, there's a good chance you'll find evidence of it (however scant) that confirms your inclination. That being said, I don't think that everyone who finds a notable tinge of sexism in Bakker's work is simply succumbing to some mass delusion by popular interpretation. Bakker is literally among my top three favorite authors of all time, but the dude still ain't perfect. I honestly think he just has an unfortunate blind-spot when it comes to his renditions of women (and the thoughts of men regarding women) in his writing. I would LOVE to be proven wrong in regards to TSA, but as it stands thus far, the series is painfully lacking in female characters that don't feel inadvertently sexist. It's almost cringe-worthy to me, honestly. He has so many opportunities to introduce an important, non-sexualized female figure, and never -- not once -- does he take advantage of it. It's pretty much the only major gripe I have with the series. Again, I don't think Bakker is a genuine woman-hating misogynist. I just think it's a quirk with his writing that happens to pop up. And, while there may be some "feminist twist" to TSA, it's a little hard to buy it as some carefully calculated plan when the exact same stuff pops up in a completely separate work (and one in a genre that's also notorious for misogyny, yet where he's supposedly intentionally subverting genre tropes).
Ironically, reading Neuropath, I actually find it pleasantly devoid of the kind of murky sexism that seems to seep into his other stuff (though, again, both of the major female characters in the book are heavily sexualized). So, certainly everyone has their own brand or interpretation of what truly qualifies as "misogyny", but to assert that it's all just some group-thought confirmation bias is a little silly to me.
-
I do not see the problem with how he portrays women. It is fiction. If you take that personally, and you are offended in
any way, that is your problem, not his. I seriously do not understand why people can be offended be a story set in
a fantasy world. Maybe he wants to portray women in that way. I have never once seen the problem with that. What Bakker really think of women is no ones business but his. Frankly no one knows, and no one should care. His fiction is
what it is, namely fiction. If people are offended by how he portrays women, they should probably look somewhere else
than in the shelves where you find dark fantasy. Being politically correct just to please women seems wrong to me.
-
I do not see the problem with how he portrays women. It is fiction. If you take that personally, and you are offended in
any way, that is your problem, not his. I seriously do not understand why people can be offended be a story set in
a fantasy world. Maybe he wants to portray women in that way. I have never once seen the problem with that. What Bakker really think of women is no ones business but his. Frankly no one knows, and no one should care. His fiction is
what it is, namely fiction. If people are offended by how he portrays women, they should probably look somewhere else
than in the shelves where you find dark fantasy. Being politically correct just to please women seems wrong to me.
Lol, well, that probably just means you're prejudiced, Royce ;).
But ultimately, I think Bakker has to have something up his sleeve or else his writing is spreading conceptions of bigotry - which would make him just about the most subversive sexist I've never heard of.
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.
I think the misogyny is probably something you can always find if you're looking for it... Or maybe I'm just ignorant. Either way, can't say I noticed anything out of the ordinary with DotD. Though that's probably all I'll say about it, since I've read one too many arguments about the topic, and it never goes anywhere but in circles.
I don't think you're ignorant, and I definitely agree that if you're looking for something in particular, there's a good chance you'll find evidence of it (however scant) that confirms your inclination. That being said, I don't think that everyone who finds a notable tinge of sexism in Bakker's work is simply succumbing to some mass delusion by popular interpretation.
It just seems so strange to me that everyone who recognizes it, recognizes it without exception. I partook in only one Bakker & Women thread ever (though, I've read them all) and I read a handful of essays by thinkers analyzing feminist thought and literature for the thread and happened to be in a really special offering at school and read through a hundred opinions on that forum, where I think two or three people notably went to bat with me. In the former two, there was a large amount of discussion surrounding what constitutes criteria. In the latter, not so much... in general terms anyhow. There's plenty of analogies and examples.
Bakker is literally among my top three favorite authors of all time, but the dude still ain't perfect. I honestly think he just has an unfortunate blind-spot when it comes to his renditions of women (and the thoughts of men regarding women) in his writing. I would LOVE to be proven wrong in regards to TSA, but as it stands thus far, the series is painfully lacking in female characters that don't feel inadvertently sexist. It's almost cringe-worthy to me, honestly. He has so many opportunities to introduce an important, non-sexualized female figure, and never -- not once -- does he take advantage of it. It's pretty much the only major gripe I have with the series. Again, I don't think Bakker is a genuine woman-hating misogynist. I just think it's a quirk with his writing that happens to pop up. And, while there may be some "feminist twist" to TSA, it's a little hard to buy it as some carefully calculated plan when the exact same stuff pops up in a completely separate work (and one in a genre that's also notorious for misogyny, yet where he's supposedly intentionally subverting genre tropes).
I've always thought that Bakker User had it right on about doing the work for the other side of the argument and I happen to be genuinely curious.
To start off, I don't think any of it is inadvertent. I understand what you might be imply about some subtle inadvertence but too much of it is overt, whatever it is, to be subtle.
You seem to recognize it as it is but you've provided us with only one description of how to recognize a less damaging gendered narrative. Well, two. You imply that what we might call 'positive dissonance' is a better way to fight prejudice in our world than 'overt representation.' But you explicitly suggest that a "non-sexualized female figure" is what is called for.
Either way, it's not enough.
Wracking my brain, I can only think of a couple criteria that were generated in the Westeros threads (and mind, I haven't read them all in awhile.)
I figure my own offerings might miss the mark but then I know I'm guilty of being a shit person to people. However, I'll wait for your thoughts, FB (or anyone else), because mine are jumbled. Also, while I don't think a thread here could ever devolve into what occurs at Westeros, you are really half this conversation right now (out of four of us voicing an argument).
Ironically, reading Neuropath, I actually find it pleasantly devoid of the kind of murky sexism that seems to seep into his other stuff (though, again, both of the major female characters in the book are heavily sexualized). So, certainly everyone has their own brand or interpretation of what truly qualifies as "misogyny", but to assert that it's all just some group-thought confirmation bias is a little silly to me.
Lol - I didn't think my opinion was so shallow? A large number of people contribute to the conception that gender prejudice "is what is it," especially in this case, fiction, yet are not consistent as a group in defining their thoughts. I can think of plenty more biases or heuristic than something so simple as confirmation bias ;).
-
Lol, well, that probably just means you're prejudiced, Royce ;).
But ultimately, I think Bakker has to have something up his sleeve or else his writing is spreading conceptions of bigotry - which would make him just about the most subversive sexist I've never heard of.
I guess we all are, some way or another :)
Does it matter if he is spreading conceptions of bigotry? Should he not be allowed to build up a imaginative fantasy world, were woman are portrayed as they are?
I just don`t understand that after reading his books, bigotry is what comes to mind. It is irrelevant to the story, but as
Wilshire said, if you want to find it, you do.
I accept that this is the way he writes. End of story.
-
It's not like there aren't real-world antecedents to the horrible treatment of women, especially in ancient times when women were basically property in some cultures. Bakker takes pains to evoke his world by drawing comparisons to our own historical record, and there are many obvious analogies to that of the Bible and ancient Near East. I always viewed the story from that perspective. It's not nice. It's not pretty. It's not right, by our modern moral perspective certainly. Doesn't mean it never happened, many times, in many places, all over the real world. Hell, it still happens today in some countries and cultures. I see it more as a reflection of what total assholes men are and can be, in terms of how they treat other people, especially those whom they consider inferior to them. Give a man power over anything, any situation, and he is gonna use it.
-
Lol - this post gets a little windy. It kind of reads like I'm responding just to Royce's post but not the case, though, it kind of provided structure to mine.
Lol, well, that probably just means you're prejudiced, Royce ;).
But ultimately, I think Bakker has to have something up his sleeve or else his writing is spreading conceptions of bigotry - which would make him just about the most subversive sexist I've never heard of.
I guess we all are, some way or another :)
Does it matter if he is spreading conceptions of bigotry? Should he not be allowed to build up a imaginative fantasy world, were woman are portrayed as they are?
I just don`t understand that after reading his books, bigotry is what comes to mind. It is irrelevant to the story, but as
Wilshire said, if you want to find it, you do.
I accept that this is the way he writes. End of story.
No pun intended. Nice.
Well, an aspect is that our perception is biased based on the history of our perception. We find minority X, Y, Z offend us yet that simply means we perceive them more.
In one way, the prejudice is in the eye of the beholder.
Yes, Bakker, can write anything he damn well pleases. I won't read it simply for that reason and commit to playing my role as proponent. And neither will a certain number of others.
I see it more as a reflection of what total assholes men are and can be, in terms of how they treat other people, especially those whom they consider inferior to them. Give a man power over anything, any situation, and he is gonna use it.
I don't totally agree with these statements, but they highlight an aspect of why Bakker spreading conceptions of bigotry might be bad.
Examples are what people emulate. While I'm trying to explore more of these contentions, FB's pretty much dead on. Dystopian gendered portrayals (as one example of many possible gendered statements Bakker might be trying to make) are only useful in breaking down gendered prejudice insomuch that they offer an alternative vision from our real-life interactions (and I will say that misogyny is alive and thriving, everywhere, just like many other prejudices).
So if we were left with Somnambulist's conception alone (which again, isn't wrong, but I'd like to believe men can aspire to be more than their contemporaries or antecedents), then random fantasy fan X isn't ever jarred with some cognitive dissonance (a strength of Bakker's I feel); cognitive dissonance, estrangement, etc, seem like the foundation of writing that does something.
Just thoughts.
It's not like there aren't real-world antecedents to the horrible treatment of women, especially in ancient times when women were basically property in some cultures. Bakker takes pains to evoke his world by drawing comparisons to our own historical record, and there are many obvious analogies to that of the Bible and ancient Near East. I always viewed the story from that perspective. It's not nice. It's not pretty. It's not right, by our modern moral perspective certainly. Doesn't mean it never happened, many times, in many places, all over the real world. Hell, it still happens today in some countries and cultures. I see it more as a reflection of what total assholes men are and can be, in terms of how they treat other people, especially those whom they consider inferior to them. Give a man power over anything, any situation, and he is gonna use it.
Standard rebuttals to these thoughts bullet-point to something akin to (just notation, I don't know that there are argumentative merits to these as I wasn't part of the first couple Bakker & Women threads at Westeros and so didn't argue against these then - I was in the latest and, maybe another before Disciple came out):
- There are plenty of real-world antecedents that aren't horrible (I don't know why this means Bakker needs to include them in his narrative argument).
- The instances of rape (or sex) are gratuitous. (Maybe. I actually tried to go over each one that people brought up with an analytic eye but never got any help with that really).
- If they aren't gratuitous, they fail to make the point Bakker intended.
- Portrayal is endorsement (This is something of a known fallacy, but evidence from social psychology wouldn't be so sure - perceiving behaviors goes a long way towards influencing our own, unless we're somehow divided from the experience of perception, in the case of debriefing - or you know, parents suggesting that one behavior should be stopped now - or alternative portrayals in the works themselves).
- Again, all men aren't so domineering. But this is the argument at hand.
Personally, I'm just waiting for Mimara and Esmenet to rule their All-Women Matriachy and fight off the gluttonous lust of the armies of Man ;).
I think FB said it well, I'm just not at that state of perception yet: I'd feel differently somehow about the books, if Bakker remains bound by the gendered portrayal that he's made central to the series. They're fantasy books, as is said. And it being Bakker, I expect his eventual portrayal of women to be the mind-fuck that everything has been as separating TSA from other fantasy is.
-
Yes, Bakker, can write anything he damn well pleases. I won't read it simply for that reason and commit to playing my role as proponent. And neither will a certain number of others.
I agree, and to me personally his "treatment" of women is not something that will stop me from reading it.
It is not that I enjoy women being treated like rats and being raped all over the place, but I accept it on Bakkers terms
in this particular story.
Maybe a strong female character will show up, and what will people say then? That he succumbed to peer pressure?
Or finally he understood that he should not portray woman this way? I do not really see the point in dragging this
discussion on, either you either read it on his term or you don`t.
-
Maybe a strong female character will show up, and what will people say then? That he succumbed to peer pressure?
Or finally he understood that he should not portray woman this way? I do not really see the point in dragging this
discussion on, either you either read it on his term or you don`t.
I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Bakker's been good about having the large arcs planned and he's said gender issues was intended from the beginning, so I'm willing to take him at his word as having planned it all alone. Plus I think Mimara, Serwa, Esmenet, Psatma are strong female characters.
-
Indeed they are, so maybe he did succumb to pressure then, since they became strong later in the series :P
-
The aforementioned women in the narrative are indeed strong because they survive the depredations of men. All the crap that happens to them and they refuse to give up. All the giving. If Yatwer has her way, they should be about to start taking.
-
The aforementioned women in the narrative are indeed strong because they survive the depredations of men. All the crap that happens to them and they refuse to give up. All the giving. If Yatwer has her way, they should be about to start taking.
+1.
Indeed they are, so maybe he did succumb to pressure then, since they became strong later in the series :P
Well, personally, I think, Esmenet's been almost uncharacteristically strong since TDTCB. But yes, Mimara, Serwa, and Psatma are all TAE additions (but again, I feel Bakker had always had their introduction planned).
-
Well, personally, I think, Esmenet's been almost uncharacteristically strong since TDTCB. But yes, Mimara, Serwa, and Psatma are all TAE additions (but again, I feel Bakker had always had their introduction planned)
Probably planned it yes, which is also a reason not to jump on the sexist wagon.
-
Love is pain, 'highness.
-
Love is pain, 'highness.
The absence of love is pain. When it is there, in whatever form that may be, it is beautiful :)
-
I've heard it both ways.
Love is pain, 'highness.
The absence of love is pain. When it is there, in whatever form that may be, it is beautiful :)
Monstrously beautiful?
-
Monstrously beautiful?
:)
-
Love is pain, 'highness.
The absence of love is pain. When it is there, in whatever form that may be, it is beautiful :)
Wait the pain is always beautiful? Dunno about that.
Anyway I was just quoting Princess Bride. Not sure why but the bits of the posts I read reminded me of that movie.
-
Wait the pain is always beautiful? Dunno about that.
Lol. It might be though, if you are an extreme sadomasochist :)
Maybe if you read it again you will see that it is love(when it is there in any form you like) which is beautiful.
I do not yet regard pain as beautiful, but I might learn to like it eventually:)
-
;) Oh I see it now.
-
So, I had written out a pretty big response to this discussion several days (maybe a week?) ago, but I had done so on my Kindle, and near the end something fucked up and I lost it. Nearly threw my Kindle across the room. I actually try to actively avoid writing anything lengthy on it, since it's so sensitive and even a slight mishap can make you lose everything, but I just got caught up in the post. Regardless, I'm going to try and say what I wanted to say in the first place, but in an abbreviated version (I still don't have a working computer with internet, I'm using my girlfriend's laptop to post this, but I should have a working PC by the weekend, thank Christ).
So anyway, I want to say that there are a number of excellent points and arguments in this thread. I want to reiterate that I do not think Bakker is some kind of woman-hating misogynist by any means. That being said, I absolutely think that his approach to female characters in the TSA series is inherently flawed -- again, it's virtually the only major problem that I personally find in the work. Additionally, I must say that I do believe there's a very slight level of bias going on; I think people love this series so much that they're wearing some vaguely rose-tinted glasses regarding it. I'd actually like to see a thread where people discuss the weaknesses of the TSA series in general.
Now, my personal issue with Bakker's handling of the female characters in TSA is not that they aren't strong characters in-and-of-themselves. I think every major character in the series is fantastically developed. My issue is that he keeps hitting the same notes with his female characters, over and over and over. And, most importantly, not a single one of them is characterized without an emphasis placed on sexuality. Not a single female POV character. Let's list the big ones:
Esmenet (whore)
Mimara (whore/slave)
Serwe (concubine/sex slave)
Psatma (sex slave)
I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this. We have this incredible variety of male characters, all very well developed and deep, all with wildly different backgrounds and professions...and yet every single female POV character is incredibly sexualized. Every one of them has graphic, detailed sex scenes. Three of them get raped in graphic detail, often more than once. Psatma was like a breath of a fresh air, she started out so strong. An old, powerful, non-sexualized female character. Awesome.
But then she gets young and attractive (by fucking someone, mind you) and is promptly bought by a male character for the purpose of sexual service. It's almost comical to me.
Now, this is usually when people bring up the fact that Bakker's world is one where women are "objectively inferior", and even he himself has stated that his intention was to portray the oppression that women felt in historical times. That's fine. That's good. It's an excellent idea. But you can't just say that and then proceed to have every female POV character be heavily preoccupied with sexuality. That's not real life. It's not realistic. Why isn't there a single female POV that's unattractive to men (again, Psatma started that way, but it didn't last long)? Why does every single female POV have to be depicted in graphic sex scenes? Why does every single female POV, in one way or another, act as the oppressed sexual slave and/or whore to a male? It's just ridiculous to me. It's immersion breaking, honestly. And then I heard that Bakker's editor suggested Conphas be made a female. FUCKING BRILLIANT. I can't even describe how great that would've been in my view. It would have turned everything onto its head, and yet he said no. Why?
Look, I don't want to offend or incite anyone to anger here. I love TSA. It is, without question, my favorite fantasy series ever. It's monolithic in its brilliance. And again, I do not for a single second believe that Bakker is a genuine misogynist. I just think it's an unfortunate quirk in his writing. Even the greatest artists of all time had their flaws, and this is one of his. That's my opinion, anyway.
-
I do think that it can be justified to describe women as being "sexual objects", even today that is the case, and it was
certainly the case back in the day. I think it is a realistic view. Women are supressed in any way possible all over the world,
although women have gained more and more power and freedom over the years. Who is running the show? on every fucking level there are men. Forget Merkel in Germany or what not, she answers to men in the end anyway.
Maybe Bakker is showing us that although women can be strong individually, they are supressed either way by a male/masculin/control system. The opposite as in the female/feminin/chaos "system" might in the end overthrow
their counterpart. Then you have Kellhus who transcends both of these systems, as a final solution maybe?
I think that it is down to what gets to you on a personal level. If his portrayal of women disgusts you, I can totally
see that, but I can`t help but think that it is supposed to be this way. Maybe the female/feminin/chaos system get
their revenge in the next volume. I wait with my judgement until the series is finished. But I think that either way,
this is not something that will make me like the series less, because as I have mentioned before, it is just fantasy:)
-
I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this.
That's about 1/2 of the problem. The other half being that the other side feels the same way.
Having no comprehension, or wholesale dismissal , of the other sides' argument makes any conversation pointless, imo.
I mean maybe thats where a disagreement starts, but at some point if no one sees merit in the other side, you might as well agree to disagree.
lol my own hypocrisy in my non-participating participation is not lost on me.
-
I think there is a tendency among people who dislike the series to confuse depiction with indorsement to some extent. Other than that, I agree with Francis Buck almost entirely.
-
I am working on something semi-academic with a variety of seriousness, which kind of took off since this thread started veering this way.
I also found some of the old research, essay and blogs, that I had explored for the Bakker and Women Thread Returns at Westeros. I'm trying to fit in a little extra-curricular reading because I think that Bakker has set himself the opportunity to really turn this whole 'feminism' schtick on it's head in the way of Layers of Revelation or societal changes.
Some of that will inform my posts here, though I think when I actually post (in a month or so), I will use resurrect the Bakker, Feminism, and Slavery thread.
One thing to remember, in my opinion, is that it is necessary to treat TSA as one object of analysis, which we only have a partial reading of.
So, I had written out a pretty big response to this discussion several days (maybe a week?) ago, but I had done so on my Kindle, and near the end something fucked up and I lost it. Nearly threw my Kindle across the room. I actually try to actively avoid writing anything lengthy on it, since it's so sensitive and even a slight mishap can make you lose everything, but I just got caught up in the post. Regardless, I'm going to try and say what I wanted to say in the first place, but in an abbreviated version (I still don't have a working computer with internet, I'm using my girlfriend's laptop to post this, but I should have a working PC by the weekend, thank Christ).
Too long have you experienced the trauma of inferior machines, FB.
So anyway, I want to say that there are a number of excellent points and arguments in this thread. I want to reiterate that I do not think Bakker is some kind of woman-hating misogynist by any means. That being said, I absolutely think that his approach to female characters in the TSA series is inherently flawed -- again, it's virtually the only major problem that I personally find in the work.
For my inane purposes I request that you (or anyone) highlight the criteria by which you qualify this "inherent flaw." Is it like that the famous supreme court judgement, where porn is known when seen?
Additionally, I must say that I do believe there's a very slight level of bias going on; I think people love this series so much that they're wearing some vaguely rose-tinted glasses regarding it. I'd actually like to see a thread where people discuss the weaknesses of the TSA series in general.
Count me as wearing glasses. However, I also happen to have a skewed perspective of myself, being me, and think that I will be more exhaustive in my research and thoughts than most of both proponents either for/against any argument that might be made here.
I'll try to divide this appropriately.
Now, my personal issue with Bakker's handling of the female characters in TSA is not that they aren't strong characters in-and-of-themselves. I think every major character in the series is fantastically developed. My issue is that he keeps hitting the same notes with his female characters, over and over and over. And, most importantly, not a single one of them is characterized without an emphasis placed on sexuality. Not a single female POV character. Let's list the big ones:
Esmenet (whore)
Mimara (whore/slave)
Serwe (concubine/sex slave)
Psatma (sex slave)
If Bakker had treated each of those characters like Serwa (thus far), as a non-POV, and still all those categorizations, he'd be fitting the critique role of 'immature male author.' But all those characters are POVs and major ones, which is actually a point of appropriateness as fitting 'feminist literature,' which demands that characters identifying as 'women' have rich, thoughtful, POVs. If anything, this seems exactly how Bakker might have thought to toy with the tropes - by exploring them in uncomfortable depth.
Even Serwa serves as counter example to the overall trend in misogynistic SFF because though she fits the standard (by which I use to mean the criticized norm) of peripheral to POVs, she is seemingly the most powerful human next to her Father.
I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this. We have this incredible variety of male characters, all very well developed and deep, all with wildly different backgrounds and professions...and yet every single female POV character is incredibly sexualized. Every one of them has graphic, detailed sex scenes. Three of them get raped in graphic detail, often more than once.
The female characters are "are all very well developed and deep, all with wildly different backgrounds." The male characters are sexualized, has a(n) (as) "graphic, detailed sex scenes" as their female counterparts, and two of them are raped in "graphic detail" (Achamian/Serwe, Cnaiur/Conphas - the latter being the most graphic/described instance of rape in the books, aside the Inchoroi/Werigda).
So if I'm to imagine writing this from Bakker's perspective in the frame that I've written these books to problematize the critiqued norms for the fan, those readers who make the critiqued norms norms by trending consensually to support authors who write shallow, vapid, gendered characters...
Well, I might have decided to give those fans the most indepth Whore, Waif, Harridan, that I possibly can - describe them to the point of sickening obviousness.
Psatma was like a breath of a fresh air, she started out so strong. An old, powerful, non-sexualized female character. Awesome.
But then she gets young and attractive (by fucking someone, mind you) and is promptly bought by a male character for the purpose of sexual service. It's almost comical to me.
Unfortunately, we're a biased perspective. SA attracts some of the most brilliant people I've ever encountered in my life. What seems comically obvious to us is very likely not obvious to the majority of fantasy fans (the entire populations of discussion forums are still outliers, or a minority of the overall demographic).
Also, remember, I think Bakker's trying to make it painfully obvious to everyone (while still challenging the standard by writing deep characters - even Serwe is a rich character, despite being intellectually impaired).
Now, this is usually when people bring up the fact that Bakker's world is one where women are "objectively inferior", and even he himself has stated that his intention was to portray the oppression that women felt in historical times. That's fine. That's good. It's an excellent idea. But you can't just say that and then proceed to have every female POV character be heavily preoccupied with sexuality. That's not real life. It's not realistic.
You haven't explored much here so I'll leave this til it arises in more depth. All I can say is that the pitch is in the air - Bakker has given himself an amazing opportunity to knock this feminist dystopia the fuck out of here.
Why isn't there a single female POV that's unattractive to men (again, Psatma started that way, but it didn't last long)? Why does every single female POV have to be depicted in graphic sex scenes? Why does every single female POV, in one way or another, act as the oppressed sexual slave and/or whore to a male? It's just ridiculous to me. It's immersion breaking, honestly. And then I heard that Bakker's editor suggested Conphas be made a female. FUCKING BRILLIANT. I can't even describe how great that would've been in my view. It would have turned everything onto its head, and yet he said no. Why?
To dispel the Fem-Conphas criticism: readers and this editor are short-sighted. Bakker's playing the long-con, in my opinion. Mimara and Serwa both have opportunity to fit this critical crux. It could easily have been the case that a narcissistic Fem-Conphas would have done much more damage to his argument; imagine a woman who obsessed about herself in the manner that Conphas did...
There are literally still a possible 3 or 4 books to go (Bakker seems settled on a duology for TSTSNBN but that's also what he said about TAE). For instance, if Bakker spends the next books writing about a Feminist Utopia under Esmenet and Serwa, wouldn't that change the way the narrative past is digested in a big way?
I'm still learning, and in a sense I became a proponent of the for argument so as to learn more about Feminist Literature and give Bakker a charitable reading.
But I ask myself what could Bakker be doing here? For instance, the sex/rape scenes beside each other are (subjectively qualified) (and I don't have books on me):
- Esmenet/Aurang (graphic - it's a compulsion and basically is not an Esmenet perspective as much as she is further forced - ignorantly - to take those thoughts and feelings as her own)
- Serwe/Cnaiur (less graphic - Kellhus musing about "something outraged")
- Serwe/Achamian (graphic - Serwe is deluded by Kellhus into believing that he is everyone as God and she is manipulated into raping a drunk Achamian so Kellhus can affect distance between Achamian and Esmenet)
- [EDIT: Xerius/Slave girl (graphic - Istriya uses it as an opportunity to ply Xerius as to how he discovered Skeaos)]
- Serwe/Sarcellus the Second (more graphic - it's a skin-spy)
- Inchoroi/Werigda (most graphic - Valrissa is possibly compulsed by sorcery, definitely by Inchoroi genotypic-variation)
- Esmenet/Kellhus (less graphic - if only peripheral - Esmenet is manipulated)
- [EDIT: Conphas/Slave girl (less graphic - the mirror is notable to me)]
- Cnaiur/Conphas (second most graphic - male on male, rape as domination and explicitly used as a tool of power over)
- Esmenet/Aurang (non-graphic - implied - Esmenet is compulsed)
- Mimara/Achamian (less graphic - consensual - Mimara uses the instance to try and persuade Achamian to teach her sorcery)
- Esmenet/Imhailas/Sankas (non-graphic - implied - one of the staples of Feminist Literature is that older women be allowed to have a healthy and sexually active lifestyle, unlike the critique norm of older men, younger women)
- Psatma/White-Luck Warrior (graphic - but Psatma is given God-adjusted agency through it, rather than a shot in the face)
- Psatma/Fanayal (non-graphic - implied - Psatma is using her body as a weapon)
- Serwa/Moenghus the Younger (graphic - do we have enough to critique this yet? Possibly manipulation, possibly true-incest...)
- Mimara/Galian (graphic - I think this is actually likely the most important instance and metaphorical crux for this whole Feminist argument but... Mimara forgives an already Damned Galian)
Serwe is a special case, I think, both as a metaphor within the narrative and by the nature of her character?
Look, I don't want to offend or incite anyone to anger here. I love TSA. It is, without question, my favorite fantasy series ever. It's monolithic in its brilliance. And again, I do not for a single second believe that Bakker is a genuine misogynist. I just think it's an unfortunate quirk in his writing. Even the greatest artists of all time had their flaws, and this is one of his. That's my opinion, anyway.
Lol - you don't have to worry about offending me, FB. Just to put forth mine own two cents.
And again, I'm filter-less, I'm simply giving a rounded offering of mine own perspective for all of us to dissect and toy with. I happen to think I'm an immature male and gender interaction confuses and puzzles me.
I do think that it can be justified to describe women as being "sexual objects", even today that is the case, and it was
certainly the case back in the day.
...
Maybe Bakker is showing us that although women can be strong individually, they are supressed either way by a male/masculin/control system. The opposite as in the female/feminin/chaos "system" might in the end overthrow
their counterpart. Then you have Kellhus who transcends both of these systems, as a final solution maybe?
The idea is that 'feminist' writing should challenge/offer alternatives to "the case today," Royce. So I think we're hoping to find how Bakker might have facilitated or done damage to that kind of conversation.
Also, Kellhus does transcend those systems but it's not a final solution (Kellhus has already been historically passed as far as feminist critique goes). Bakker has said that Kellhus is a metaphor for modernity - as you've highlighted modernity didn't make things equal, it simply applied a utilitarian framework to gender productivity. I think the real reversal is going to occur in the organization of remnant humanity. I can easily see first thing that happens after Kellhus dies and the Ordeal is left to its own devices, the Men of the Ordeal destroy themselves trying to rape the Swayal.
I think that it is down to what gets to you on a personal level. If his portrayal of women disgusts you, I can totally
see that, but I can`t help but think that it is supposed to be this way. Maybe the female/feminin/chaos system get
their revenge in the next volume. I wait with my judgement until the series is finished. But I think that either way,
this is not something that will make me like the series less, because as I have mentioned before, it is just fantasy:)
+1.
I mean...I genuinely can't understand how people don't see an issue with this.
That's about 1/2 of the problem. The other half being that the other side feels the same way.
Having no comprehension, or wholesale dismissal , of the other sides' argument makes any conversation pointless, imo.
I mean maybe thats where a disagreement starts, but at some point if no one sees merit in the other side, you might as well agree to disagree.
lol my own hypocrisy in my non-participating participation is not lost on me.
Lol - +1.
But ultimately, as Bakker User admonished, it's on us to do the work, not just project our unjustified arguments and state them as so.
I think there is a tendency among people who dislike the series to confuse depiction with indorsement to some extent. Other than that, I agree with Francis Buck almost entirely.
+1. Perhaps, you can offer your perspective for analysis, Nskoghar.
-
For my inane purposes I request that you (or anyone) highlight the criteria by which you qualify this "inherent flaw." Is it like that the famous supreme court judgement, where porn is known when seen?
Count me in on this. I can not see how anything not finished(as in the series is not finished) can be flawed in any way.
The idea is that 'feminist' writing should challenge/offer alternatives to "the case today," Royce. So I think we're hoping to find how Bakker might have facilitated or done damage to that kind of conversation.
Ok, I have not read about Bakkers intentions much, but it seems to me that he will most likely challenge the notions of
"feminist" literature to the point where he should get a bodyguard:)
-
He's either going to succeed or he's not, Royce. I too think the reversal still to come. And I think Bakker's definitely taken the hits he's going to - whatever happens in the future will either validate opinions of his misogyny or not.
There have been many other books, which attempt to set up horrible patriarchies in the initial volumes in order to upset them with later with matriarchies (or Gendered Reversal A-Z).
Hmm... so curious.