[TGO SPOILERS] Momemn

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2016, 03:01:57 am »
I'm willing to chalk the other stuff up to different interpretations but the chalice thing seems reaching to me. In particular that he'd for some reason go back north after abandoning the ordeal just to teach people a new anagogic curiosity.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #61 on: August 28, 2016, 05:23:34 am »
He's playing cat and mouse with Malowebi.  He teleports behind him, doesn't attempt to harm in any way, and then says "boy that dude is strong" and teleporting away.  He demands Malowebi explain himself when he knows why Malowebi is there.  He jokes with him while casually bombing his ward with the Matriarch of the Cult of Yawter.  In between all this he tanks the attack of the most powerful Cishaurim known and swats him down with the Metagnosis.  What these actions suggest is that Kellhus likes to troll people, not that he's impressed by a particular Anagogic defence that he can circumvent.

It's also worth remembering that several different Anagogic defences of varying power and difficulty to erect are described in the battle of Shimeh in The Thousandfold Thought.  The Muzzu Chalice is described as a potent Anagogic ward and I have no doubt that it is, but that's all it is.  Compared to a master of the Metagnosis, a potent Anagogic ward is pretty small beer. 

The Sharmat

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« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2016, 06:53:24 am »
The only one that survives that encounter in any recognizable state is Meppa. So if Kellhus isn't just broken and insane, but acting with a purpose, the whole performance would have to be for Meppa's benefit. Not Malowebi, who seems to now just be Sohorat's rental car.

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« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2016, 12:20:39 pm »
Well, I don't see why Kellhus' curiosity into the Psuhke and the Zeumi sorcery can't be genuine.  Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined.  I think that Kellhus realizes there is real power there though and so is really curious just how powerful that is. 

As for Malowebi, I think he is both curious and just playing with him.  I think there is plausibility that perhaps he's never actually seen Mbimayu sorcery before though, so it would make sense to see what it's about.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Monkhound

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« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2016, 03:41:06 pm »
As for Malowebi, I think he is both curious and just playing with him.  I think there is plausibility that perhaps he's never actually seen Mbimayu sorcery before though, so it would make sense to see what it's about.

I do believe that is the case, although it's still strange. In 20 years you'd think he's done some research about all the magic in Eärwa. But I guess all men have their physical limits; Even Dunyain.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

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« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2016, 03:42:42 pm »
I do believe that is the case, although it's still strange. In 20 years you'd think he's done some research about all the magic in Eärwa. But I guess all men have their physical limits; Even Dunyain.

I'm sure he was already aware of it, but it could well be the first time he saw it in actual practice.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2016, 03:50:05 am »
Maybe Kellhus returns to Momemn in part to make sure that the Consult have used their last nuke?  I'm sure he'll be far-calling for updates.  If I'm a dunyain, I'm not hanging around--think of all those tunnels under Golgotterath--the Consult could just run one underneath them and BOOM.  I bet they do collapse at least some tunnels to try and stop the GO. 

If there are any nukes left, Kellhus could set one off inside the Ark, make a husk out of it.

Kellhus returns to Momemn so he can get that nap he's been putting off since he left Ishual.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2016, 01:10:39 pm »
Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined. 

Where has he done that? It's certainly a capable art, rivaling the more sophisticated Anagogic Sorcery in power but nothing beyond that in the text. Meppa is impressive, but he's described as the most powerful Psuhkari ever.  He's not exactly representative.  Eleazaras is able to kill three Cishaurim with a single Dragonhead during their assassination mission in the Scarlet Spires.  Far more promising is the hints posed by Titirga, that aspects of it can be combined with other schools for enhanced effects.

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« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2016, 11:28:41 am »
Of course the meta-Gnosis makes all of it look like kids toys, but Bakker has alluded to the fact that the Psuhke is very strong despite being totally unrefined. 

Where has he done that? It's certainly a capable art, rivaling the more sophisticated Anagogic Sorcery in power but nothing beyond that in the text. Meppa is impressive, but he's described as the most powerful Psuhkari ever.  He's not exactly representative.  Eleazaras is able to kill three Cishaurim with a single Dragonhead during their assassination mission in the Scarlet Spires.  Far more promising is the hints posed by Titirga, that aspects of it can be combined with other schools for enhanced effects.

I could have sworn there was a quote from him somewhere, but it seems I dreamed it.  The best I could find was:

The Psukhe turns more on dispositions than on learning, so it makes sense that dispositional savants would attain great power. But the metaphysics are different, so it's really like comparing apples and oranges. The Psukhe possesses a more volatile range.

Otherwise, the Metagnosis, the Gnosis, and the Anagogis is the generally accepted rank.

My guess is that I made that explanation up from disparate information, the fact that the Psukhe is non-cognitive (by Bakker's definition) and where the Gnosis' power comes from the formal abstract, like math, the Psukhe relies on the informal abstract, so basically an art (perhaps?).  So, in it's way, the Psukhe lacks the mathematical precision of something like the Gnosis.  Instead it is a "hammer of impetus" so to speak, a powerful tool, but a far less surgical one than the Gnosis.  I think this is what Bakker means by a "more volatile range" in the quote above, that the Gnosis' power comes from mathematical precision, focused and unwavering.  The Psukhe runs the spectrum, from possibly more powerful to far less.

In this way, we could see how Meppa could "challenge" Kellhus momentarily, because the wave might crest high and crash down hard, but in the dip, in the draw to precede the next dispensing of Water, there is nearly nothing left.  The high is high but the low is low.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2016, 01:32:56 pm »
I disagree with your assessment.  The Psukhe does not overmatch Anagogic Sorcery, let alone the Gnosis.   Both Anagogic and Gnostic Sorcery work through language and meaning, accomplishing changes in reality either through more powerful and direct abstractions or weaker metaphorical tools.  The Psuhke does not use language.  What the wielder is attempting to accomplish is not set down using the rigid tools of utteral and inutteral phrases to fix meaning but intuitive and emotional projections.  The range of power that the Psukhe allows between individual wielders is greater than that allowed by conventional arts.  Eleazaras is clearly much more accomplished and powerful than an ordinary sorcerer of rank, but the difference between his power and that of the poor bastard Mysunsai sorcerer he overpowers is not as great as the difference between a Primary and Trinary.  Emotional power and intuitive understanding can vary considerably between individuals (hi Moenghus) , just as greater mastery allows greater power with the cants.  However, since executing sorcery requires sufficient mastery to understand the cants as well as sing them, there less variation between conventional sorcerous practitioners than there is between wielders of the Psuhke.  That's why Eli can fry weak ones three at a time with a single Dragonhead but the Incandanti can burn him.

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« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2016, 04:41:08 pm »
I disagree with your assessment.  The Psukhe does not overmatch Anagogic Sorcery, let alone the Gnosis.

But I never said it did.  I only said it was possibly (at moments) more powerful, on an individual basis.  It is possible that Meppa would over-match nearly any Anagogic sorcerer, perhaps even a Grand-Master.  Granted, he is an exceptional case, but that's the point, the range of power the Psukhe can wield is much more variable than the Angogis.  Now, could Meppa overwhelm Serwa or Saccarees?  I don't quite think so, but again, my point is that the formal nature of the Gnosis nets them a more powerful result than the "raw" nature of the Psuhke.  What I was attempting to say was that the less formal nature of the Psuhke is both the fount of it's power and the reason why it is often less powerful than the Anagogis and Gnosis.

I would imagine that Titirga was able to somehow successfully merge the two and this is why even without the meta-Gnosis, his power level was beyond any one else.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2016, 05:18:29 pm »
in a duel Psukhe and the Anagogic have both overcome each other on screen, so they have some overlaps in ability. It will depend on the wielders relative knowledge base. Plus individual conditions.

I suspect Meppa would best the Primaries we saw in TTT.

Now to indulge myself, taking away the folk with Dunyain blood. As of right now the last person i would want to take on in a magic duel is Akka. Back in TWP Kellhus after weeks studying him thinks about how everyone who knows him thinks him weak, but in actuality he is a lot stronger than anyone can imagine, just some people need experiences to shape them. Well jump forward a couple of decades and Akka is certainly being shaped...

He's also taken on all comers, sometimes rolling straight out of bed to do so. killed Cish while at shimeh years before the book. Wakes up straight into a handicap match with the best of the SS. Escapes torture transitions to seswatha, lays down a beating, takes out a demon too.

Then from post coitus to routing an imperial column and taking out 4 imperial saik , just as he finishes that off in comes an even bigger demon, which he manages to just beat after it carries him for miles, goes back to collect his wife and tell AK he is a fraud.

Various run in with sranc and scalpers over 2 decades. Then out of retirement again for some even bigger challenges. Sranc, Bashrag and chorae. All taken out. Then after being hogtied the length of earwa he is released and walks straight into a fight with the FATHER OF DRAGONS, routs him then his tag team partner betrays him and he has to take down the Nilgiccas, in some say was a rigged match.

Right now he is at the very end of his tether, his child is about to be born, someone is going to get it.


Cynical Cat

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« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2016, 11:23:48 pm »
Meppa is described as the strongest Cishaurim ever and yes, his fury helps fuel his strength.  He can certainly overwhelm power Anagogic Sorcerers, we've seen him do it and a Grandmaster is certainly not beyond his ability to confront (bring popcorn but keep your distance and shelter under a Gnostic Ward/have a Chorae folks).  Nor is he the only one to demonstrate considerable strength as we saw the Incandanti wreck considerable havoc on the battered ranks of the Scarlet Spires in The Thousandfold Thought.  That makes the Psuhke powerful, but it doesn't make it superior in potential power to Anagogic Sorcery let alone a rival to the Gnosis.

Hiro

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« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2016, 02:29:29 pm »
What I wondered about the setup with demon-Malowebi being sent forth by Kellhus is, how will that be relevant? Will we really get chapters of events in Zeüm, in the middle of the siege of Golgotterath? Or will this be a longplay and will we see payoffs in the third series?


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« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2016, 02:47:40 pm »
What I wondered about the setup with demon-Malowebi being sent forth by Kellhus is, how will that be relevant? Will we really get chapters of events in Zeüm, in the middle of the siege of Golgotterath? Or will this be a longplay and will we see payoffs in the third series?

My guess off the bat was that Kellhus is setting himself up to appear as a savior to Zeüm.  Plausible, but to formulaic, so doubtful.

Killing off the leadership is much in the same vein as what he did in the Three Seas, taking away most of the old leadership to serve in The Great Ordeal.  I very much doubt any will return, or at least an exceedingly small number.  I think that kind of makes Zeüm sailing to pick them up improbable.  It more probably has to do with Zsoronga, perhaps blackmailing them with the fact that he holds the last of their heirs?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira