Easiest (read dumbest) question on this forum?

  • 29 Replies
  • 10256 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

NronFisher

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« on: February 28, 2018, 08:39:43 pm »
Hey, I haven't gotten to re-read TUC, I am in the middle of comprehensive exams for my Ph.D and my brain is fried to hell. Can someone explain how we know for a fact Ajokli is in Kellhus' head? I have been reading through the forums and there's a lot of speculation but I can't seem to find a specific line where it says Ajokli was in Kellhus' head.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2018, 08:48:03 pm »
Quite frankly, there is no proof, at all. All we got is that Bakker said at the Con that Kellhus is dead....but not done. He also verified he isn't in the Outside. So, it limits the places where his soul could be at.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

NronFisher

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 05:50:13 am »
yeah, I interpreted Kellhus' actions as being purely logical (minus his love for Esmenet). I thought his idea to 'conquer Hell' seemed rational. If a mortal living in a universe with almost universal arbitrary eternal damnation could overthrow that, who wouldn't? But then I went to the forums and people say it was Ajokli driving him mad, and then apparently Bakker confirmed it in a Q&A? Again, I can't get to the books for a few months due to my current work but I don't remember anything specifically saying it was Ajokli.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 07:48:07 am »
yeah, I interpreted Kellhus' actions as being purely logical (minus his love for Esmenet). I thought his idea to 'conquer Hell' seemed rational. If a mortal living in a universe with almost universal arbitrary eternal damnation could overthrow that, who wouldn't? But then I went to the forums and people say it was Ajokli driving him mad, and then apparently Bakker confirmed it in a Q&A? Again, I can't get to the books for a few months due to my current work but I don't remember anything specifically saying it was Ajokli.
There is a slight problem. It's not in the books, it's Bakker saying so in a Q&A.

Kinda less than ideal, but what can one do...?

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 02:00:37 pm »
Its all implied, not stated.

Something is occluding Kellhus' vision. Kellhus doesn't know what it is, or so he tells Proyas. It seems, post-TUC, that it makes sense for it to be Ajokli. From there, you go back and look at the series as a whole and think: if the end of Ajokli, how far back was he been involved? Since the beginning? Since the Curcumfixtion? Or maybe not until TAE and his travels to the outside.

Hard to say, but Ajokli seems to be the only culprit that fits, though pinning down how much and when is much harder.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2893
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2018, 02:48:14 pm »
Indeed, if you backtrack to, say, the Circumfixion, there is circumstantial evidence, throughout, that Kellhus is under the influence of something.  Taking into account the end, and Ajokli literally erupting forth from him the most plausible explanation would seem to be that it was The Trickster God the whole time.  We can't know for certain, but the goes for most of the stuff in the series really.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • whore
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2018, 03:27:12 pm »
So best I can tell from the reading and discussions and Q&A, Bakker is stating that the gods can jack our Darkness without restriction - nothing about Kellhus being able to resist or even identify the puppeteer ( no even there is a puppeteer ). Maybe a restriction on the number of people at one time as we don't see wholesale possession of an army ( or maybe we do, but not explained ). Could this be the "material" of possession? Someone pulling your strings from the Darkness?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 03:39:18 pm by TaoHorror »
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2018, 03:57:45 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Its all implied, not stated.

Something is occluding Kellhus' vision. Kellhus doesn't know what it is, or so he tells Proyas. It seems, post-TUC, that it makes sense for it to be Ajokli. From there, you go back and look at the series as a whole and think: if the end of Ajokli, how far back was he been involved? Since the beginning? Since the Curcumfixtion? Or maybe not until TAE and his travels to the outside.

Hard to say, but Ajokli seems to be the only culprit that fits, though pinning down how much and when is much harder.

See everyone points to the Circumfix, I don't. I think it's somewhere in that 20 year period we skip when he's plumbing the depths of hell. I've always thought the most crocadillian of Sons to be Ajokli. That's when I think discussions and contingencies took place.

The Circumfix doesn't fit well with me at all. I think that is Bakker backtracking. Which is why I don't take his extratextual comments too seriously. Of course we're deprived his POV for 2 books, I don't know how much we would glean. Bakker was only willing to give so much on Kellhus, the Golden Room was his "g-string" moment.

There are two places think Kellhus could be and one I have a very neat theory on. One, obviously, the decapitants. But, the other struck me as me and H was talking about Kellhus mastering the Daimos to such an extent that he could be in the Outside, just in his own niche.

Hear me out. The Ekkinhu (Sp?, sorry I haven't downloaded the kindle book. New phone.). Maybe all those mysterious deaths that (whoever found them, come forth so I can acknowledge you) were to create the thing. I think there is a passage in TUC about one could see souls and such. Maybe when he died his soul shot straight for it. A means of creating his own niche in the Outside, as you would most definitely need souls to do so. See, I don't think Ajokli is the one talking to Kellhus in his visions, I think it was Kellhus. Even though he said the voice was crazy and he ceased to listen. He didn't, obviously and they needed crazy to do what they was doing. I think he's created his own heaven. Because in the dreams it sure as heck doesn't seem a hell. It is serene, it is Dunyain.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 04:01:53 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • whore
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2018, 04:04:56 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Its all implied, not stated.

Something is occluding Kellhus' vision. Kellhus doesn't know what it is, or so he tells Proyas. It seems, post-TUC, that it makes sense for it to be Ajokli. From there, you go back and look at the series as a whole and think: if the end of Ajokli, how far back was he been involved? Since the beginning? Since the Curcumfixtion? Or maybe not until TAE and his travels to the outside.

Hard to say, but Ajokli seems to be the only culprit that fits, though pinning down how much and when is much harder.

See everyone points to the Circumfix, I don't. I think it's somewhere in that 20 year period we skip when he's plumbing the depths of hell. I've always thought the most crocadillian of Sons to be Ajokli. That's when I think discussions and contingencies took place.

The Circumfix doesn't fit well with me at all. I think that is Bakker backtracking. Which is why I don't take his extratextual comments too seriously. Of course we're deprived his POV for 2 books, I don't know how much we would glean. Bakker was only willing to give so much on Kellhus, the Golden Room was his "g-string" moment.

There are two places think Kellhus could be and one I have a very neat theory on. One, obviously, the decapitants. But, the other struck me as me and H was talking about Kellhus mastering the Daimos to such an extent that he could be in the Outside, just in his own niche.

Hear me out. The Ekkinhu (Sp?, sorry I haven't downloaded the kindle book. New phone.). Maybe all those mysterious deaths that (whoever found them, come forth so I can acknowledge you) were to create the thing. I think there is a passage in TUC about one could see souls and such. Maybe when he died his soul shot straight for it. A means of creating his own niche in the Outside, as you would most definitely need souls to do so. See, I don't think Ajokli is the one talking to Kellhus in his visions, I think it was Kellhus. Even though he said the voice was crazy and he ceased to listen. He didn't, obviously and they needed crazy to do what they was doing. I think he's created his own heaven. Because in the dreams it sure as heck doesn't seem a hell. It is serene, it is Dunyain.

If Kellhus was talking to himself, why the odd simplistic questions like "what do you see?".
It's me, Dave, open up, I've got the stuff

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2018, 04:10:39 pm »
I'm of the opinion that the older the Bakker out-of-text quote, the more it can be taken at face value. His recent online stuff is ... confusing.

Certainly his exploration of the Diamos lead him to some interesting things, and another great place of entry for Ajokli.

There's lots of other theories for who/what the voice(s) are/were. We don't know for a fact either way, which was what the original question in the thread was. NronFisher, if you came looking for simple answers, you'll probably not find them lol.

The Ekkinu being a portal of some kind to a pocket dimension or 'outside' type place is an interesting thought. Would it be a new outside, or a corner of the existing outside?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2018, 04:11:50 pm »
Quote from:  Tao
]If Kellhus was talking to himself, why the odd simplistic questions like "what do you see?"

Not the voice in his head. The man we see setting under the tree, motionless stars and the like. Those are visions. That I bwlieve is Kellhus from the Outside. It was only the voices asking those questions. I think they are separate.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2298
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2018, 04:17:35 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
The Ekkinu being a portal of some kind to a pocket dimension or 'outside' type place is an interesting thought. Would it be a new outside, or a corner of the existing outside?

A niche in the Outside as I've always thought. A place safe from Ajokli and others wanting to eat his soul. It also gives him power and ways to help with defeating the NG. Now he could manifest in the real, we have to take that into account. As Ajokli and other Gods have done. He will be Akka's guide I would like to think. I'm optimistic about the outcome, as you know. I think he stripped us down, and will raise us back up with the TNG.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5935
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2018, 04:21:44 pm »
Kellhus being the inverse-prophet bringing news of the real to the heavens, and Achamian being the prophet-from-the-past (which to me means like Seswatha his job is to unite humanity and save the world a la Seswatha), makes for an interesting pairing.

Akka could take up the inverse-prophet role too now, and bring news to Kellhus - inadvertently or otherwise - an the two could pair up to defeat the Consult. It could happen.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5275
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2018, 01:28:51 pm »
Hey, I haven't gotten to re-read TUC, I am in the middle of comprehensive exams for my Ph.D and my brain is fried to hell. Can someone explain how we know for a fact Ajokli is in Kellhus' head? I have been reading through the forums and there's a lot of speculation but I can't seem to find a specific line where it says Ajokli was in Kellhus' head.

Welcome back, NronFisher. Strength on the journey, journey well.

I think what you were asking is how do we know it's Ajokli who takes over Kellhus in the Golden Room, rather than where his soul is after all is said and done, right?

On that answer, as far as I recall, we only have the validity of Malowebi's POV to go on.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Doulou

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2018, 09:11:44 am »
yeah, I interpreted Kellhus' actions as being purely logical (minus his love for Esmenet). I thought his idea to 'conquer Hell' seemed rational. If a mortal living in a universe with almost universal arbitrary eternal damnation could overthrow that, who wouldn't? But then I went to the forums and people say it was Ajokli driving him mad, and then apparently Bakker confirmed it in a Q&A? Again, I can't get to the books for a few months due to my current work but I don't remember anything specifically saying it was Ajokli.

Without Bakkers Q&A it would be a challenge to fully understand Ajoklis role in the story.

I would like to re-read the whole series bearing in mind Ajoklis involvement. I think the circumfix can be seen as a point where Ajokli gets involved because shortly after Kellhus sees the halos on his hands and also "goes mad".

As for Kellhus dialogue in the Golden Room, I don't really think there's much reason to believe it's Ajokli "talking" until Ajokli fully manifests. Taking over Hell would be a reasonable next step once he stopped the Apocalypse. I think Kellhus's dialogue about circumstance in the Golden Room is interesting. With Kellhus mastery of the Gnosis he is able to achieve a different path his father/mutiliated couldn't achieve. He can beat the Consult, stop the Apocalypse and then rule hell with a knowledge of Sorcery that the other Dunyain were not able to perform.

Problem is he just didn't "see" Ajokli coming in the way he did, and Ajoklis influence shrouded him in darkness (his quote to Proyas). So really the way I look at it is that Kellhus was trying to be as Kellhus as possible, he had his plans that were his own. But with TDTCB he was unable to understand all his actions, so putting himself in the Golden Room alone was a mistake (remember his childrens surprise at when they learn he was went alone) since he really couldn't have beat the mutilated, but he did it anyways because it felt like the thing to do.

I see it like this - If Ajokli wasn't influencing Kellhus then he would have still done most things the same. Led the Great Ordeal, tried to stop the Consult, and then ruled hell. But he would have done it better, he wouldn't have went alone into the Golden Room for example. It was Ajoklis influence that made him stray from conditioned ground because TDTCB was claiming him so he wasn't able to fully think like the superhuman he is.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 09:14:55 am by Doulou »