The Dûnyain

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Wilshire

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« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2015, 02:15:13 am »
Why does the Outside get to measure the Inside using its own standards, but the Inside doesn't get to judge the Outside?

...

Because the Outside created the Inside, which has no being or reality apart from what the Outside gives it, and which is literally nothing of itself?  There is no possibility of parity in such a relationship.
We have no origin stories. I'm actually inclined to believe that the inside actually created the outside.

Like an omnipotent god that fashions a cage he cannot escape from.
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EkyannusIII

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« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2015, 05:18:27 pm »
If that should prove to be true then I would stand refuted, but I can only think that the Tusk is basically accurate in light of the fact that at least one of it's deities (Yatwer) has apparently manifested herself to her worshipers.  It is worth noting that Kellhus does not seem to question the reality of the Outside or it's agencies despite having more or less every incentive to do so.
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2015, 05:32:16 pm »
Its certainly real, but how it came to be real is the question. Earwa seems adept at turning groupthink into reality, eg Kellhus is actually divine because he convinced enough people to believe him. Similarly  I think the Eannas created their own gods which now rule over them, damned the universe, etc. This is just a crackpot though.
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H

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« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2015, 05:34:36 pm »
Well, like Inrithism is syncretic (I can recall Scott saying this before), I think the Tusk is too.  I think the Inchoroi used what "religion" they could find to craft something to their own ends.

That being said, we don't know how the gods work, as in, are they informed by the Inside? Or is the Inside informed by the Outside?  My guess is that there is some kind of bi-directionality though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2015, 05:37:27 pm »
Considering the Earwaverse exists on some slider of "objective reality" to "subjective reality", there would almost certainly have to be a give and take. Chicken or egg though.
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« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2015, 05:53:33 pm »
Well, since the Non-Men didn't believe in them, I don't think the gods could exist without humans, so I'd have to guess that humans came to believe in the gods, which formed the gods Outside and gave them agency Inside, which in turn caused more people to believe in them, ad-infinitum.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

s Ī n Ī ster to Ā st

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« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2015, 09:11:00 pm »
While human belief on Earwa does seem to affect the Outside, we have to remember that the Outside has existed for way longer than Humanity has, as evidenced by the Inchoroi who've been damned even before they came to Earwa, or could it be possible that damnation  and the outside are seperate?
I am the falcon of
the morning, the hawk of
the afternoon. I am the sun,
as you are, and I know the
True Name of Ra. My
mother told me

Wilshire

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« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2015, 03:07:27 am »
I dont think they are separate, damnation and outside, but I think that since the outsides exists somehow "outside" of time, then its possible that men created them at some given point on our linear timeline, and then the outside suddenly existed in all times before and since.
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locke

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« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2015, 04:33:45 am »
Its certainly real, but how it came to be real is the question. Earwa seems adept at turning groupthink into reality, eg Kellhus is actually divine because he convinced enough people to believe him. Similarly  I think the Eannas created their own gods which now rule over them, damned the universe, etc. This is just a crackpot though.
Nah, Kellhus is divine because he's serwes husband, not because he convinced people to believe in his divinity.

Wilshire

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« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2015, 12:18:23 pm »
Serwe is nothing. The Dunyain are the master's of their own destiny unlike any race, human or otherwise, before or since.
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locke

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« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2015, 04:16:31 pm »
Serwe is everything, the Dunyain are deluded.  The dunyain are architects of intricate edifices of obfuscation dedicated to preserving and maintaining the hermetic sanctity of their willful self deception.

Wilshire

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« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2015, 04:30:54 pm »
The world is deluded, Serwe the culmination. The Dunyain are the only ones with the agency to break the cycles of history, the chains of the gods. To be self-moving.
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« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2015, 05:37:25 pm »
I always took the line, after reading the first few books, that Kellhus was really a savior, but subsequent readings and Scott's own comments have made me doubt that.  He has said multiple times that the Dûnyain are the illusion of our modern method of thought.

The idea that the world could be mastered, especially Earwa, is flawed.  While Moë wants Kellhus to believe that nothing violates the principle of before and after, we actually know that this is false, a la the White-Luck Warrior.  Or at least, so we are led  to believe.

In the end we are fed some pretty contradictory stuff and really none of our "sources" seem very reliable.  I think this is Bakker's point though, which is echoed in his blog posts about "winning the magic-belief lottery," that everyone seems to know exactly what is going on, but in reality they are all probably just seeing things as they want to.

I've always had a sense that what we are in for a big reversal in the end, that where the text seems to be leading us is not the path that will actually be the "true" one.  Or maybe his point, that there won't be a "true" path...

Well, that's a lot of rambling, I don't know that I've made any real point though...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

locke

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« Reply #118 on: April 29, 2015, 06:52:27 pm »
The only thing I'm certain of in the series is that the dunyain belief system does not win the  belief lottery nor does it circumvent said lottery.  All they do is just rhetoric in service of delusion.

locke

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« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2015, 07:03:04 pm »
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.