The Dûnyain

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Bolivar

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« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2015, 09:35:58 pm »
You really think it was magic? I agree the whelming is unlikely but I chalked that up to suspension of disbelief, not magic. Although it would jive with the theory that the upper echelon of the pragma know the truth about magic and such.

locke

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« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2015, 09:55:01 pm »
I would say a magical ritual with a magical outcome indicates magic

Wilshire

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« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2015, 12:48:22 pm »
Not at all magic in any way. Borderline religious perhaps, but its a circumstance imposed on the mind and body through prolonged hardship and extended deprivation. Something I think anyone could achieve given the correct dicipline.

A method for control? Maybe, but calling it magic is taking the easy way out. In Earwa, calling it magic lets you pretend like its not important, easily explainable (akin to invoking "god did it"), but making it real and purely physical forces you to consider tougher truths.
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locke

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« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2015, 09:34:42 pm »
Can it happen in the real world?

No.

Ergo, it is magic.

Hardship and discipline are two hallmarks of all other magic, their presence preceding the magic does not disprove it.

The veneer of legitimacy is naught but a caul over your eyes occulding the truth from your sight.  the "tougher truths" are just a way to paper over your delusions with a label.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 09:38:38 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2015, 10:56:53 pm »
What was unique about his experience that makes it such that it cannot happen IRL? Out of body experience, hearing voices, feeling of absolute clarity, all very real. Some of those monks in those mountains can do are purported to do crazy things, why not the Dunyain in fantasy land?

A quick google search shows much more incredible things : http://listverse.com/2013/05/21/10-amazing-examples-of-mind-over-matter/

Thus, by your logic, since it can happen IRL, it isn't magic.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:58:49 pm by Wilshire »
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locke

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« Reply #125 on: April 30, 2015, 11:12:06 pm »
Supernatural speed

Wilshire

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« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2015, 12:25:29 pm »
Supernatural speed
?
Now im lost. What scene specifically are you talking about? Thought you were referencing the "the logos is without beginning or end" scene.

Also, don't mean preternatural speed ;)
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #127 on: May 02, 2015, 06:32:17 pm »
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?

Wilshire

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« Reply #128 on: May 04, 2015, 02:21:27 pm »
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?

Circumfixion was TWP, not TDTCB.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #129 on: May 04, 2015, 09:12:54 pm »
Take kellhus' magical moment at the end of the first book.  We're supposed to believe that this heavily ritualized week long meditation is mystically somehow less magical an experience because we are given an elaborate and belabored series of supposedly rational explanations that leverage orwellian language to declare it "not magic".  But it's still a fucking supernatural experience, as thoroughly impossible in real life as any magic of akka. 

All the week long meditation worship scene is, is is a mechanism for whelming and controlling kellhus.


is this about the Circumfixion?

Circumfixion was TWP, not TDTCB.

derp!  "the logos is without..."  now i REMEMBER

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« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2015, 03:30:49 am »
I wanted to flesh out an earlier theory regarding the purpose of the Dunyain as fulfillment of the Celmomian prophecy.

At some point near or after the conclusion of the first apocalypse Seswatha must have realized that sorcery alone would not be enough to take on the Consult.  Instead, perhaps Seswatha believed they needed a tekne not of the body alone (like the Inchoroi) but of the mind (the Dunyain).  In this manner he sought to create a being capable of intervening during the second apocalypse by virtue of his abilities being unaccountable or unforeseeable by the Consult the same way the tekne was unforeseen by the Nonmen.

The Dunyain as a strategic revisioning of the tekne in order to account for the tekne during the second apocalypse.

Meaning the Second Apocalypse might come down to Dunyain tekne vs. Inchoroi tekne.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - Mark 14:38
"I went mourning without the sun: I stood up and cried in the congregation."   -Job 30:28

Wilshire

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« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2015, 04:20:21 pm »
Yeah what the Dunyain have done is more/less what the tekne is without machines. They use artificial selection and compounding ages to get real genetic results, where the Inchoroi directly modified their own genome.

It seems correct that the Inchoroi are more concerned with the physical, while the Dunyain made the mental aspect just as important (if not more).
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H

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« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2015, 12:04:30 pm »
So, I reread this passage it there are a number of curious things I hadn't thought about:

Quote
But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”
The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”
For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled.
The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated but to one another—that here was evident a great correspondence of cause. Here awareness most holy could be tended. In Ishuäl, they had found shelter against the end of the world.
Still emaciated but wearing the furs of kings, the Dûnyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Grand Vizier’s books. The jewels, the chalcedony, the silk and cloth-of-gold, they buried with the corpses of a dynasty.

First, why would his "eyes fill with wonder" at what the Prince says to him?

Second, it seems to be saying that them finding Ishuäl was fortunate.  That it proved "correspondence of cause" but then again, framed as it is, the passage could well be saying that finding an Anasûrimbor was the fortunate part.

Aside from that, I took to wonder about Ishuäl.  Odd facts about it:

Despite it being an alleged product of Celemomas, the name Ishuäl is Ihrimsû for "Exalted Grotto" not Kûniüric, or Dûnyanic (which is Kûniüric in origin).  Why would it have a Nonman name, if it was human built?  Further more, when Kellhus first enters a Nonman mansion, he remarks:

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So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.
...
The work of Nonmen.

Indeed, I find it highly plausible that Ishuäl is a Nonman mansion, which led me to think, why was it made, yet uninhabited.  Sticking with the thread of the name though, I curiously looked up what "grotto" would mean.

Quote
The word comes from Italian grotta, Vulgar Latin grupta, Latin crypta, (from the Greek κρύπτη krýptē "hidden vault").

This was interesting to me, but I felt it too tenuous to really be much.  Then I happened to be rereading WLW, and I came across this:

Quote
For his part, Achamian did not know what to believe. All he knew was that the Mop was no ordinary forest and that the encircling trees were no ordinary trees.
Crypts, Pokwas had called them.
...
Aside from his one nightmarish dream of the finding the No-God, he had dreamed of naught but the same episode since climbing free of Cil-Aujas: the High-King Celmomas giving Seswatha the map detailing the location of Ishuäl—the birthplace of Anasûrimbor Kellhus—telling him to secure it beneath the Library of Sauglish... In the Coffers, no less.
"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret..."

Here is a reference to "crypts," the trees of the Mop, and this triggers Akka to dream of Ishuäl.  Coincidence, possibly, but I doubt it.

It has occurred to me before that Akka's insistence that the dreams are essentially random is absolutely false.  They may have been at one time, when all the souls of all the Mandate sorcerers seemed essentially "the same" but not now, not for Akka who walks a very different path.

So, is Ishuäl a crypt?  Is so, then for who?  If it is a "hidden vault" then what was necessary to hide?

Considering it's location, it seems like it would a creation of Injor-Niyas, made by Nil'giccas and afterwards forgotten?

The last resting place of their Nonmen women perhaps?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2015, 02:27:21 pm »
I'd like to break down the quote:
Quote
But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”
The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”
The implication here is that there are no crimes when men are no longer deceived. This means that once they achieve their Absolute, they expect the world to live happily ever after in perfect harmony. Seems odd.

As for why his eyes filled with wonder, I read it as just surprise, "wonder", that a someone so young could feel/think this way.

Quote
For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled.
He does not say he was an anasurimbor. Though, its just as likely it was mentioned 'off screen'.

Quote
The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated but to one another—that here was evident a great correspondence of cause.
I agree this could indicated celebration of finding an Anasurimbor, or finding the place itself.

The name Ishual indicates, at the very least, a close relationship between Celmomas and the Nonmen.

I think it extremely likely that the Thousand Thousand Halls beneath Ishual were a Mansion or at least some construct by the Nonmen. I think the Castle built atop it was built by Celmomas and his dynasty.

Grotto -> vault is an interesting idea.

Akka's dreams, specifically their timing, is very important throughout the series, according to Bakker. Crypts leading to dreams of Ishual seems like a good connection. We haven't seen any normal Nonmen grave sites, could be they built a crypt to house all their dead, except the special ones they burned or otherwise sealed.
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H

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« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2015, 02:49:09 pm »
I feel a good amount of doubt that Celmomas actually built any part of Ishuäl.  On the one hand, we aren't presented with anything to really tell us, one way or another, except one thing: sorcerous runes.  To me, that says Nonman construction (the runes were probably Aporetic, to prevent sorcerous attacks).  It doesn't seem plausible to me that Celmomas had a hidden cache of sorcerers on call for the construction.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira