Cishaurim

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Madness

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« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2013, 08:24:05 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2006
Regarding the Third Sight (which refers to the way Cishaurim see without seeing), the idea is that Psukari can actually see souls - those things invisible to the naked eye. Souls 'shine' to the degree they reflect the 'proportion of the God.' So the implication is that the Dunyain somehow reflect the proper proportion...

From my post on p2 of the thread ;).

EDIT: Well, I look like an idiot. I already linked this once in this thread, on the last page... *facepalm*
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:26:56 pm by Madness »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2013, 08:28:53 pm »
Shh no one will know the difference.

Anyway, why do the Dunyain reflect the god?
 And, if they reflect God so, why couldn't Moe bare water? Doesn't make sense.
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« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2013, 08:31:22 pm »
I suspect it has something to do with this, which I was about to post in the Is Kellhus Few thread:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2006
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
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Wilshire

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« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2013, 08:44:19 pm »
 
I suspect it has something to do with this, which I was about to post in the Is Kellhus Few thread:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Mar 2006
The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
An unsolved mystery from 7 years ago. Great. We've come so far....

Memory is somewhat heritable... Race memories that all humans share then, except the Dunyain "remember" more since thats what they have been bred to do (accidentally?). Bred to remember. Well that sounds useful to a certain alien race who forgets everything.
Anyway, that seem to point out that the Absolute, and becoming God, is indeed the same thing.
Also makes me think of Assasin's Creed a bit. In case you are unfamiliar: There is a machine that lets you travel back in time through the memories of your ancestors and relive their life. More importantly, the main character turns out to be the accidental convergence of nearly every family bloodline, allowing him to access nearly every memory of the entire history of the Assassin's guild.
Bakker mentioned that Kellhus is somewhat a prodigy. Maybe this could be because Kellhus is the convergence of all the disparate dunyain bloodlines that have been slowly and purposefully been interwoven throughout the centuries. Kellhus is the most Godlike since he has inherited the most of these "memories", making him the closest thing the Dunyain have come to God (Absolute).

Speculation with no answers.
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« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2013, 08:51:25 pm »
It makes me think of ancestral memories a la Dune.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2013, 09:05:06 pm »
It makes me think of ancestral memories a la Dune.
I know. I had to consciously not say kwisatz haderach (not so hard though because i have too look up the spelling every time).
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« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2014, 03:47:15 am »
Do the Cishaurim use utterals/inutterals?

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« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2014, 11:52:46 am »
We don't know? But I think we established that all the Schools do (or don't) use an utteral/inutteral combo?
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« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2014, 05:06:10 pm »
@ Octavian/Callan - Your notion that the gods are blind to the Cishaurim is fascinating!  I had never thought about mark/no-mark as being relevant to what the gods can see, since I assumed that they could see non-sorcerers just fine, but maybe you are right and the Cish have figured out a trick like no other!  The ability to use the psukhe on this interpretation would allow one to manipulate the world while letting the gods think that they were the ones in charge.  :)

@ lockesnow - Love your bit about Moe using the psukhe to interrogate a mandati/talk to Seswatha!  I bet there was a mandate hanging up just one room over from the skin spies!!!  Far better way to get info than tedious skin spy neuropuncturing.

@ Octavian - I think that ultimately, Kellhus interpretation that he has seen more of the TTT than his dad is a mark of hubris.  I'm betting Moe conditioned K's path to get K to that inference

@ Madness - Thank you for those Cinmoi quotes!!!  Neat-O!!!

@ Triskele - Love your idea that the water is finite, so being the only Cishaurim makes you super awesome!

@ Wilshire - What you said about memory, it made me wonder if a nonman/quya's magic power rises exactly when they are experiencing whatever makes them remember.  That is, if Cleric had to face hoards of sranc but was not able to use the experience to remember, they would have just run him over?

Before reading this thread, I had thought that there were 2 possibilities for Old Moe: 1) he was as Kellhus said or 2) he was extremely powerful and only cultivated the appearance of weakness to fool Kellhus.  For #2, the Cish could have told Kellhus the truth if any had survived (maybe Meppa will reveal something like this, that Moe could move mountains).  But now I'm wondering about #3, that Moe could be strong and was hiding his strength from all.  He was playing a long con, pretending to be weak in the water to carve out a place 'behind the throne' and that he plays a solo game.  He's the one Dunyain that won the lottery of finding the Psukhe first and now he pulls all the strings wherever.

Whatever the truth about Cishaurim is, I think the whole point of having markless sorcery in the story is to build up to a big reveal about someone manipulating events off stage.  Every coincidence/dream/whatever that made Kellhus into the Warrior Prophet can be explained by Cishaurim and possibly more Dunyains.

TUC predicition:
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48570409.jpg

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.

EDIT2: It's weird that Xinemus can see the Cishaurim's seeing.  Could it be that they are 'marked' but you have to be blind to see it?  Would be nice to have Iyokus' perspective on this.  Would be a good reason to keep a blind dude (with the gift?) of the few in the entourage.

Wilshire

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« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2014, 11:56:44 pm »

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.


How about Cishaurim using Wutteat as one of their snakeheads?! Would any blinded animal/person serve as eyes?
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« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2014, 10:24:15 pm »

EDIT: It would be kind of neat if blinded Wutteat can see Cishaurim now.


How about Cishaurim using Wutteat as one of their snakeheads?! Would any blinded animal/person serve as eyes?

I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

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« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2014, 03:05:17 am »
I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Riding in on a mad beast whose soul has rotted into a portal to hell would be cool, but I wouldn't count on him saving the Ordeal, haha.
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« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2014, 05:07:01 pm »
Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.
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« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2014, 12:21:01 pm »
Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.

This is interesting...
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Wilshire

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« Reply #89 on: May 02, 2014, 02:54:46 am »
I love the idea of a Cishaurim using a wracu as a vessel!  But, are the snakes blind?  I missed that part.  Anyways, Old Moe riding in on Wutteat to save the Great Ordeal might be the highlight of TUC.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Riding in on a mad beast whose soul has rotted into a portal to hell would be cool, but I wouldn't count on him saving the Ordeal, haha.
Oh, yeah snakes are not blind.
btw, burst out laughing with that last line.

Nope.  The Cish use them to see.  According to the Moe/Kellhus convo, its like peering through pinholes.
I suspect the fact that snakes don't have sentience/souls, and they belief that they are 'holy' is important.  Otherwise, why remove your eyes and then replace them?

Has the 'witness' theory been postulated?  If the sorcerer can't directly observe what he's doing to the onta, maybe seeing through the eyes of a holy animal is like a loophole in the metaphysical law of Eärwa, whereby the sorcerer can avoid accumulating the Mark.  Essentially using the snakes as a proxy to deflect damnation, or at least the ontologically visible aspect of it.
It has not been stated yet. Very interesting... Where is locke, I'm sure he'll explain it!
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