Cishaurim

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mrganondorf

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« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2014, 04:59:40 pm »
Is she supposed to be skittish or does she just have a serious stutter?

to me, her whole aspect feels like a put on

Ciogli

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« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2014, 05:04:38 pm »
I think she has a type of Autism, another defective only fit for the unmasking room in Ishual, if girls are allowed there. At the rate Kellhus is putting out defectives the majority of Ishual must be defectives, unless it is simply the inbreeding that makes fertility so difficult with the worldborn. The majority vast majority of babies born in Ishual must die before procreating, much like in the wild where ninety percent mortality rates are common. But I'm starting to suspect maybe the Dunyain are a matriarchy of some type, we have only seen two elder Dunyain throughout the series.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2014, 05:11:46 pm »
It depends on how much the defects we see in Kellhus's offspring are due to inbreeding depression and how much they are due to genetic incompatibility between Dunyain and other Homo sapiens, since Dunyain seem to be undergoing speciation.

Wilshire

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« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2014, 07:30:43 pm »
Nope never caught this before. Hidden in plain sight.  Call them singers or choruses and no one will notice if they never actually sing.  It's actually a great cognitive trick and a classic illusion.

It's amazing how easy it is to short circuit the human brain.  Give something a name and the mass delusion is we all universally edit in information to support that name/definition subconsciously.

I am prepared to be embarrassed by many things TUC reveals. This whole thing is probably something close to a social experiment anyway.



OOOO!  I've an idea.

First, the quote from TDTCB and Mallahet:

Quote
"I have come, Emperor, so you might parlay with another."
Xerius blinked.  "Who?"
For a moment, it seemed the Nail of Heaven flashed from the Cishaurim's brow.
So, no words, no glowing of the eyes or mouth (my bad).

Gnostic and anagogic sorcery are more bound to this world (through reason and metaphor), and so require the outspoken utteral as the portal through which will is made manifest. 

BUT, the Psukhe, the passion-based sorcery, requires not an utteral and an inutteral, but a conscious inutteral and a subconscious inutteral.  A perfect fusion of feeling and thought.

Perhaps, even, it is the utteral which stains the onta.
I like your thinking here.

Also the fact that it comes from thoughts, and the light shines from their forehead, makes me realize that the similarity in names between "Psukhe" and "Psyche" is probably deliberate.

Cishaurim=psionicist, not sorcerer.


Haha, closer than you even know:
under definitions for Psyche:
From latin,  from greek psukhe breath, soul; related to greek psukhein to breathe

I suspect that never getting a POV from a Cish is deliberate, but I'll skim through TJE and WLW to see if Meppa ever gives an indication that he is one of the Few.

In Kell and Moe's conversation when they describe each other's paths through the world, neither of them bring up Moe being one of the Few (they mention him being sent off, as a brilliant mind and interpreter of the Kipfa'aifan, to the Cish, but that's it).

Personally, I think it's not the sorcerers, but the practice, that separates them from the other Schools.
Agreed that POVs are all very deliberate, and the lack there of.

I think the Puske is truely the only different mechanism for magic in Earwa. Gnosis and anagogic are basically the same, and the aporos is derived from the former.

Psuke is the only school that arose without the help of Nonmen (as far as we know), and the only school that does not use a nonman tongue to wield its miracles.

I think she has a type of Autism, another defective only fit for the unmasking room in Ishual, if girls are allowed there. At the rate Kellhus is putting out defectives the majority of Ishual must be defectives, unless it is simply the inbreeding that makes fertility so difficult with the worldborn. The majority vast majority of babies born in Ishual must die before procreating, much like in the wild where ninety percent mortality rates are common. But I'm starting to suspect maybe the Dunyain are a matriarchy of some type, we have only seen two elder Dunyain throughout the series.
Autism, or somewhere on the spectrum at least, seems like a great explanation for Thelopia. Something like Aspergers maybe. Other thoughts about dunyain inbreeding can be found all around this forum.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2014, 08:16:08 pm »
I'm pretty sure the anagogis was developed independently by humans historically

Triskele

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« Reply #140 on: September 11, 2014, 02:59:16 am »
There's a quote at the beginning of the Cishaurim's revealing of themselves on The Battleplain in Warrior Prophet before they're all killed by the charge of the Shrial Knights.  I don't have it handy, but it's something about how their snakes (and it mentions that each has five) are fanning out like candelabras trying to sense the trinkets hidden among their opponents.  I'll try to get the exact quote later, but it's one that strongly suggests that the Cishaurim can sense or "see" the chorae, but like the other quote above with Mallahet, I'd say it is not entirely conclusive.

Wilshire

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« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2014, 05:46:50 pm »
I'm pretty sure the anagogis was developed independently by humans historically
It was a brutalized version of the Gnosis, developed using a more debased nonman tongue than the one the Quya/Mandate used. I believe it arose only after Men had learned the Gnosis.

Some Shamans are described pre-BotG, but I don't think its called or referred to as Anagogis.

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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #142 on: September 12, 2014, 01:28:18 am »
Nah, Sharmat has it right imo.
The gnosis, as wielded by men, is adapted from Quyan sorcery.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 01:30:46 am by Cüréthañ »
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2014, 02:40:27 am »
I think the confusion comes from Achamian implying that you could derive the Gnosis from the Anagogis if you knew the right logical leaps to make. Apparently it's very very hard for humans to make that leap on their own though.

Wilshire

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« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2014, 06:07:15 pm »
What do you make of them using the Nonman language? I'll have to hunt for quotes if I remember regarding the advent of the Anagogis, but the PoN glossaries clearly show that they wield sorcery using a Nonman tongue.
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Garet Jax

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« Reply #145 on: September 12, 2014, 06:08:56 pm »
What do you make of them using the Nonman language? I'll have to hunt for quotes if I remember regarding the advent of the Anagogis, but the PoN glossaries clearly show that they wield sorcery using a Nonman tongue.

The impression I got was they would just recite what they heard, and didn't know about the inutteral.  That's how the Anagogis came to be?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 06:16:36 pm by Garet Jax »

Wilshire

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« Reply #146 on: September 12, 2014, 06:15:26 pm »
A discuss for the sorcery topic perhaps, but all sorcery that we know of uses both utteral and innutteral. I thought for a long time that the Anagogis was missing the innutteral but that is not the case.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2014, 06:47:36 pm »
Quote
Garet Jax [12|Sep 02:42 pm]:   
Anagogic Limitations This dualistic technique is what distinguishes Gnostic from Anagogic Sorcery, and explains why the Anagogic Schools can never duplicate the Gnosis, as they can only reproduce the utterals of the Gnosis and are either unaware of the innuterals, or incapable of learning them. Kellhus nodded... “And this is why the Anagogic Schools have never been able to steal the Gnosis. Why simply reciting what they hear is useless." "There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”(*)
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Garet Jax

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« Reply #148 on: September 12, 2014, 07:48:03 pm »

Quote
Garet Jax [12|Sep 02:42 pm]:   
"There’s the metaphysics to consider as well. But, yes, in all sorcery the inutterals are key.”(*)

Seems like the last line is the key here.


Is there any evidence other than that line that says the Anagogic schools use an inutteral?


I interpreted that line as "Inutterals are the key difference between the Gnosis and Anagogic types of Sorcery".

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #149 on: September 12, 2014, 11:28:41 pm »
My understanding;

For both the gnosis and anagosis inutterals are in your native toungue(or whatever language one subvocalizes in), uterrals must be in a dead language in order to fix the meanings.
So just repeating the incantations does nothing if you don't understand the concepts.

Quote from: wiki on mathematical language
Sometimes formulas cannot be understood without a written or spoken explanation, but often they are sufficient by themselves, and sometimes they are difficult to read aloud or information is lost in the translation to words, as when several parenthetical factors are involved or when a complex structure like a matrix is manipulated.
Gilcunic provides a vocabulary that enables gnostic mages to leverage different metaphysical concepts that anagogic mages simply do not understand. 
Remember that the anagosis is powered by anologies rather than abstraction.  It's like the difference between simile and metaphor, and there is a rather large gulf between these things from a metaphysical perspective.

The psukhe is interesting because its meaning is fixed without this interplay, it seems like brute force alteration of reality through faith, like how a creationist might deny fossil records.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 11:31:30 pm by Cüréthañ »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.