The PreFAQ

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Wilshire

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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2013, 09:43:12 pm »
Ah that was the thread. Knew it was somewhere.
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Baztek

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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2013, 05:15:03 am »
As I see it, the big questions in the series are: Kellhus/Moenghus/The Dunyain, the Consult and associated shenanigans, and the metaphysics of Earwa (with plenty of subtopics like sorcery and topoi). I don't think the problem with an official FAQ is the length and breadth of these topics, but the lack of definitive answers. I propose that the "answers" just be the interpretations of different members. So like, if the question is, what is Damnation, I'd say that to me it is a law of the universe as objective and arbitrary as that of gravity. Then you can put Wilshire's interpretations, Callan's, etc. etc. I think it would be interesting that way because you'd get wildly varying interpretations and, frankly, that's what I think makes these books so fascinating. It would tell new members that we don't have it all figured out, and they get an idea of how deep these topics go to encourage further discussion.

Madness

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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2013, 12:26:18 pm »
I don't think the problem with an official FAQ is the length and breadth of these topics, but the lack of definitive answers. I propose that the "answers" just be the interpretations of different members.

+1.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2013, 04:20:16 pm »
Ha. Thats an entertaining idea. We could make a post that had some of the big questions that are commonly asked but seldom have an answer, and then have any who are strongly opinionated and willing to dig up reasons for their madness write up a paragraph or a page on their view of the answer.

I think you hit the heart of the issue. The problem is that most questions that anyone would like to have answered are more complex than they know, and few agree on any theory as a whole.
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Baztek

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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2013, 05:04:27 pm »
Certainly true, but as long as there's a, for the lack of a better term, commonality in all of our interpretations I don't think it would be very intimidating at all. If we got 10 wildly varying explanations for what the Damnation machine is, then it's just gonna leave new members feeling like they're being asked to study Ulysses with us. But if our interpretations are all within certain bounds, then everyone knows the only thing missing are some key details.

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2013, 05:21:56 pm »
Would would be lucky to get to 10 :P, but I am tempted to say the more the merrier. For any given question there would probably be only a couple of "answers", and at least some support should be offered.
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Madness

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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2013, 03:26:16 pm »
Again, I don't think the issue is so much generating answers... it's the questions which allude us and drive us mad! They remind me... they remind me of the answers! But what are the questions?
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Borque

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« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2013, 11:49:49 am »
Ah, so this is the dreaded Pre-FAQ. Finally, we meet.

I'm thinking we should have a part of the FAQ dedicated to new/potential readers who aren't familiar with the books.

I have started a couple of suggestions for questions and answers below, feel free to give your opinions, suggest stuff to add or remove, and improve my writing as needed.

Who is this Bakker guy anyway?
R. Scott Bakker ("RSB") is a Canadian author, yada yada, copy/paste from Wikipedia or link there?
He is best known for his fantasy series called The Second Apocalypse.

What is The Second Apocalypse?
The Second Apocalypse is a series encompassing at least two trilogies, Prince of Nothing and Aspect-Emperor, and one possible duology or trilogy of which nothing yet is known. The two first trilogies can be read independently, but it is generally considered to be best to start with the first trilogy, Prince of Nothing.

Will I like The Second Apocalypse?
Possibly, but not certainly. Many readers consider these books too dark, pompous, or difficult, while many others love them as complex, ambiguous, poetic and challenging. Generally speaking, if you liked Lord of the Rings, George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire,  and/or Frank Herbert's Dune books you stand a good chance of appreciating The Second Apocalypse and should try it out. You need to have a high tolerance for internal ruminations of characters, occasional philosophy, a few outright disgusting scenes involving sex and/or violence, and characters being solidly grey.

It helps if you have read at least a couple of other epic fantasy series, as Bakker works a lot with subverting well known tropes of the genre.


It's almost Christmas. Will my kids love The Second Apocalypse?
No. No, they won't. You definitely don't want to give these books to your kids without having read them yourself first. These books are firmly adult, and as such they are probably not appreciated by kids under 18 or more likely 25 (... though I'm not sure about this one - that's my opinion anyway...).

How should I go about reading The Second Apocalypse?
They should definitely be read in the order they were published, as later books contain spoilers for earlier ones. This means starting out with the Prince of Nothing books, and reading them in the following order:
  • The Darkness That Comes Before.
  • The Warrior Prophet
  • The Thousandfold Thought
When starting with The Darkness That Comes Before, do not give up until you have read at least around 200 pages, preferably the entire book. Names will be troubling for some at first, since many of them are very unfamiliar, but ignore this - the important ones will stick eventually. Be aware of that almost everyone, even die-hard fans of the books, found the beginning to be tough going. If you found all of the first 200 pages to be completely unreadable garbage, you probably won't like the rest either, and you can start looking for something else to read. If you found something that piqued your interest, regardless of it being the political machinations, some of the characters, the magic system(s) or something else, keep on reading until you've finished the book. Then make the decision if you want to read on, keeping in mind that the next two books, The Warrior Prophet and The Thousandfold Thought, are generally considered better than the first one.

Then continue with the Aspect-Emperor trilogy, in order:
  • The Judging Eye
  • The White-Luck Warrior
  • The Unholy Consult (not yet published)
On RSBs web site there are two short stories, The Four Revelations of Cinial'jin and The False Sun. They were released after The White Luck Warrior, and are probably best read after that book. However, be aware of that The False Sun contains a spoiler for The Unholy Consult.

This Kellhus guy seems to act very weirdly for being the hero, right?

Yes. This is intentional. Beware of considering him a hero, quite possibly he is the main villain. As of writing this FAQ, five books into the six book series, his status as a hero and/or villain is still very much undetermined and subject for some great discussions on this forum.

What are all these strangë chäractërs? They make mÿ head hûrt.
(...)


Madness

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« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2013, 01:04:49 pm »
Great beginnings, yes!

Nice, Borque.

I hope this inspires people. A couple more, polish this up a little for realsies and I'll update my Links to Fan Resources to FAQ & Fan Resources.

It's easiest if we get a nice bulk base and then keep updating it (if and when this thread receives any participation ;)).

Thank you, Borque.
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locke

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« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2013, 07:06:57 pm »
Dramatis Personæ:

Kellhus - the hero or the villain, a martial arts monk

Achamian - a sorcerer

Cnaiur - a barbarian

Esmenet - a prostitute

Serwe - a waif

Conphas - heir to the emperor

Those six characters are the primary viewpoint characters of the first three novels, 90% of the story is told from their perspectives.

Dramatis Personæ:

Sorweel - a prince

Mimara - a princess

Kelmomas - an heir to the emperor

these three characters are new to the second series and are also primary viewpoint characters.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:09:16 pm by locke »

locke

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« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 07:28:30 pm »
It's really hard to read The Darkness that Comes Before, is their an alternate reading order?

Not officially, but the structure of the books changes after the first book to a more common interleaving style where chapter to chapter alternates the various story threads, this makes the sequels much easier to read. 

The Darkness that Comes Before is written in the more archaic style of long chunks, divided into sections or books, where only one story thread is told at a time.  The best example of this style is the Lord of the Rings which will consist of 300 unbroken pages following Frodo, only to switch halfway through to follow Aragorn et al for 300 pages. 

The Darkness that comes before is structured as follows: Kellhus for 30 pages, Achamian Esmenet for 100 pages, Conphas and Cnaiur for 130 pages, Achamian and Esmenet for 85 pages, Cnaiur, Serwe, and Kellhus for 100 pages and then interleaves all the characters for the final 140 pages.  This makes it very awkward for new readers, because there's a 300+ page gap between the first character you meet and encountering him again. 

There is no official way to read the book differently, but if you find yourself struggling with reading the book as currently arranged, here is an alternate structure that interleaves the book's chapters in a more modern and dynamic fashion that is in keeping with the structural style used in the rest of the series.

Prologue
Chapter One

Chapter Five

Chapter Two

Chapter Six
Chapter Seven

Chapter Three

Chapter Eight

Chapter Four

Chapter Twelve

Chapter Nine

Chapter Thirteen

Chapter Ten

Chapter Fourteen

Chapter Eleven

Chapter Fifteen
Chapter Sixteen
Chapter Seventeen
Chapter Eighteen
Chapter Nineteen
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:30:24 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2013, 11:18:46 pm »
Borque that was a good post. I have a few things to add:

18 - 25 seems like a decent range, but I started when I was 16, and am not yet 25. Don't know if a age should be put in there, but its a fair point to say to a parent that they should consider reading it before they gift it. The books are certainly Adult Fiction.

btw Good advice with the 200 pages thing. It wasn't until the end that I really fell in love with the book, and I'm honestly not sure why I went that far. But yeah, if there is absolutely nothing of interest after the first 1/3 of the book, you might be better off just moving on.

Locke, interesting idea with the reading order, I like it.
One thing to add to your response to that question:
It's really hard to read The Darkness that Comes Before, is their an alternate reading order?

I don't think I would have finished TDTCB if I didn't have the TTT glossary  sitting next to me. I'd honestly recommend it to everyone starting out. The ability to look up some of the weird words gave me a fighting chance. Unfortunately that makes it a 2book purchase to start out, which may be too much to ask.
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locke

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« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2013, 03:50:54 am »
next time I reread TDTCB I'm going to try that order, thematically it should result in many different really nice commonalities across threads such as Serwe's travels corresponding to Esmenets.  It will also provide a smoother narrative flow to Cnaiur, Esmenet and Achamian's stories.  Nothing to be done about the lack of Kellhus in Atraithau.  It'd be great to have that chapter just after chapter two in the above order, maybe someday we'll get an author's special edition.  If RSB ever got a TV series, they should totally reissue a revised and expanded version of TDTCB that would have the pacing more closely track the structure of the remaining volumes of the series. (and naturally the TV series would also use an interleaving structure).

Madness

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« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2013, 11:13:59 am »
The dramatis personae, obviously.

I'm not sure an FAQ is the place for an alternate reading order as much I'm going to try it myself.

Aside, how is it that people are so inconvenienced by (a reading experience) TDTCB? I don't really understand. It remains consistently top three, whenever I rate the series, no matter what my mood.

btw Good advice with the 200 pages thing. It wasn't until the end that I really fell in love with the book, and I'm honestly not sure why I went that far. But yeah, if there is absolutely nothing of interest after the first 1/3 of the book, you might be better off just moving on.

I thought all the characters felt pretty refreshing when compared to the depthless caricatures I was reading in fiction at that point. I especially liked Cnaiur and Conphas as they offered the relative window on more traditional fare. And the whole book is worth Skeaos' face breaking open before Achamian - I knew then it was going to be an awesome ride.

I don't think I would have finished TDTCB if I didn't have the TTT glossary  sitting next to me. I'd honestly recommend it to everyone starting out. The ability to look up some of the weird words gave me a fighting chance. Unfortunately that makes it a 2book purchase to start out, which may be too much to ask.

Interesting.

Ultimately, I don't understand why it is necessary to convince moreso than inform? I've purchased many books that I later regretted and have taken a chance on far less than Bakker and what TSA ended up turning into. Fuck people's indignant hurt in this context.

I have nothing to apologize for for being a fan. Neither does anyone else. Nor should our recommendations constantly be disclaimers about difficulty and graphic gratuity. I refuse to use the FAQ as propaganda that makes a case for reading the books rather than being a helpful guide.

It's like the difference between the FAQ being personified as Saruman or Gandalf to me...

However, obviously, I'll consider myself overruled by the lot of you and include anything FAQ-wise that the community concedes is necessary.
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Somnambulist

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« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2013, 03:23:04 pm »
Hear, hear!  Much agreement.
No whistling on the slog!