The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Great Ordeal => Topic started by: Hogman on August 19, 2016, 10:19:46 am
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I'm not greatly interested in philosophy, so some of the things in Bakker's books go right over my head. The worst example of this was the whole "head on a pole" section. Can anyone give me any explanation of what it means?
Apologies if this has already been covered, I finished TGO last night and have only been through some of the old threads so far.
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I don't think we're really supposed to know yet. I doubt its resemblance to depictions of Onkis, the Goddess of Inspiration which comes before all thought, is coincidental though.
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It's the darkness that comes before.
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Well the head on the pole could be Anarlû's
They did hoist Anarlû's head high,
and poured down its blood as fire,
And the ground gave forth many sons,
Ninety-nine who were as Gods,
and so bid their fathers
be as sons...
whoever Anarlû is
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It's the darkness that comes before.
So is Onkis.
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And it is kellhus version of samarmis. As the passage indicates, he's always had a second secret voice (Ala samarmis.)
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And it is kellhus version of samarmis. As the passage indicates, he's always had a second secret voice (Ala samarmis.)
Which we know since Shimeh (TTT), when Kellhus tells his father. Moënghus then declares the trial has broken Kellhus and rendered him mad. Borrowed my book to a friend, so I can't quote it.
But I had not drawn the parallel with the Celmomas/Samarmas situation.
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While I did notice the similarity with Onkis, it seems a strange choice if that's what it is. Onkis hasn't exactly been much of a focus. Outside of that scene in TDTCB, I think the name is only mentioned in passing
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I thought it was related to some kind of tool for an anchoring effect like with Consult/Shaeonoara so the soul won't float away and be nom nomed by the hungry hungry Ciphos.
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Well since it's Iyokus who learned to Kellhus the Daimos the head could be a metaphor for Iyokus chanting while Kellhus explores the Outside.
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I admit that given its proximity to the scene discussing Serwe's damnation, that I assumed the head was hers.
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I personally think it's Onkis, as Kellhus later goes on to lament how despite all his achievements, he's still a slave to the circuit of cause and effect.
H mentioned on a cast recording that it's probably a sorcerous instrument keeping him grounded in reality while exploring the thousand hells.
I believe someone else suggested it might be a reference to your neural system - the head on a pole being your brain and your spine, just behind your face, as in everything you experience. Related to Bakker's Blind Brain Theory.
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I believe someone else suggested it might be a reference to your neural system - the head on a pole being your brain and your spine, just behind your face, as in everything you experience. Related to Bakker's Blind Brain Theory.
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Geoffrobro - I promise I'll get that posted at some point but there's a background sound that's tripping up my limited audio editing skill-set.
I also suggested elsewhere that the head on the pole is "the reader" but that's out there.
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Doesn't Kellhus associate the secret voice in his head with the No-God?
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Doesn't Kellhus associate the secret voice in his head with the No-God?
He says both the God and the No-God speak to him. But, I've always associated the Dreams he has of the ape-like figure/Kellhus to be from the No-God. Its even more confusing/ambiguous after TGO, methinks.
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He normally says the God speaks to him around world-born though, I thought? He never mentions the No-God's voice to anyone but Moenghus, if I'm not mistaken.
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He normally says the God speaks to him around world-born though, I thought? He never mentions the No-God's voice to anyone but Moenghus, if I'm not mistaken.
Yea, right. I guess that's why it's so hard to parse what's what.
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He normally says the God speaks to him around world-born though, I thought? He never mentions the No-God's voice to anyone but Moenghus, if I'm not mistaken.
Yea, right. I guess that's why it's so hard to parse what's what.
Yeah, he talks about, at different times, the God of Gods, the No-God and the visions. We do "see" the No-God seeming to speak to him and we do see the visions (someone with his face under that tree) but we are never privy to the actual God of Gods. Unless, of course, those visions are of himself, or Koringhus, post-Absolute and so is actually the God of Gods.
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God of Gods, No-God, Visions - the not-so-holy trinity.
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God of Gods, No-God, Visions - the not-so-holy trinity.
And so perhaps also One?
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About the Head on a Pole passage from pages 44-46:
There's One of the Sons of this Place which has crocodile features.
Has one of the Hundred ever been mentioned as having crocodile-features?
I'm intrigued by this, as the whole passage ends with the phrase:
The living shall not haunt the dead
Which could be interesting information as to the nature of the Hundred.
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I think one of the high level ciphrang Iyokus calls is described as crocodilian but that's all I can remember.
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I have an idea that it's the dead god that the Scylevendi worship.
I also think that it is what the non-men call Anarlû. That's what the nonmen call the god the Scylevendi worship.
And men call it Onkhis, although they seem to be specifically referring to the god now that it is dead, not whatever it was before it died.
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I'm pretty sure the Scylvendi are just worshiping the No-God.
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I'm pretty sure the Scylvendi are just worshiping the No-God.
I know that's widely accepted but I don't think I buy it
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I'm pretty sure the Scylvendi are just worshiping the No-God.
I know that's widely accepted but I don't think I buy it
Settled out of text (http://forum.three-seas.com/topics/568), circa 2005 (and so subject to change or to be discovered a lie, as far as I'm concerned, but it's the evidence as I know it to exist ;) ):
And to answer your question, Maltaran, yes, Lokung is indeed the No-God - though this is not necessarily how the Scylvendi themselves see things.
A lot of interesting tidbits regarding the Scylvendi in that thread.
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God of Gods, No-God, Visions - the not-so-holy trinity.
And so perhaps also One?
Exactly.
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He normally says the God speaks to him around world-born though, I thought? He never mentions the No-God's voice to anyone but Moenghus, if I'm not mistaken.
Pretty sure he mentioned it to Akka, but, that was when they were starting to split off. It may have been in the exact chapter where Achamian starts to confront Kellhus when he finally "see's" the Dunyain. It didn't register for Akka, because he was past listening to Kellhus. In that moment, its hard to also take Kellhus "seriously" as well, versus when he speaks with Moenghus, and self-narrates his "insanity" in hearing the No-God speak.
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“The No-God returns, Akka … I’ve seen him! He is as you said. Tsurumah. Mog-Pharau …”
“Lies!” Achamian cried. “Lies to spare you my wrath!”
It is near the end of The Warrior Prophet...when Kellhus is circumfixed and tries to convince Achamian to help him.
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“The No-God returns, Akka … I’ve seen him! He is as you said. Tsurumah. Mog-Pharau …”
“Lies!” Achamian cried. “Lies to spare you my wrath!”
It is near the end of The Warrior Prophet...when Kellhus is circumfixed and tries to convince Achamian to help him.
Truth Shines!!!!!!
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Ah, I'd forgotten that. He was barely coherent at that point.
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He is here … with you … not so much inside me as speaking with your voice.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
And he walks, though there is no ground. And he sees, though his eyes have rolled into his brow. Through and over, around and within, he flees and he assails … For he is here.
There was a head upon the pole behind him. If he could not turn to see it, it was because it lay behind his seeing … Behind all seeing.
So, in our most recent LostCast, geoffrobro floated the idea that the Head on the Pole is essentially Kellhus' own head, the view of himself, from himself, essentially looking backwards. Or at least, something like that, I might be doing a poor job paraphrasing his idea. It does make sense of the above quotes, how his eyes have rolled back into his head and yet, he sees.
Consider further, where is the Outside in relation to your physical presence? Your soul is what links you to the Outside, so looking inward (eyes rolling back) is to look Outside. But of course it isn't so simple as to just be looking backwards at one's self, the Outside isn't so cut a dry. So looking back is looking backwards but at a reflection of one's self.
Bakker's recent quote gives us a definite insight into this:
In the coffee shop I worked in, the way my screen reflected the plate glass window behind me created this image of a head on a pole that would vanish whenever I turned around to glimpse it's source. It creeped me out, and provided wonderful inspiration for the Outside flashbacks...
So, I do believe that geofforobro had the right of it from the get go. The Head is Kellhus' head. It is behind him because it is the view from his view. It is the seeing of himself seeing. Perhaps it Grounds him in the Outside because he can understand that his soul is only a reflection of his body and his body only a reflection of his soul. So, he closes the Watcher and Watched loop, so that he is indivisible. Consider:
They seize him from time to time, the Sons of this place, and he feels the seams tear, hears his scream. But he cannot come apart—for unlike the Countless Dead his heart beats still.
His heart beats still.
There is a head on a pole behind you.
Neat-o. All credit to Geoffrobro for basically figuring it out on a single read. All I did was connect some further dots. Hopefully he'll pop in soon and comment.
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That's excellent and makes a very hard thing to figure out made simple. Yet, Kellhus uses the phrase "There is a head on a pole behind you", in the mundane world. He also remarks about how it is always there and always has been. We get Kelmommas being bit on the back by Sammy. And, Onkhis. I don't care what Bakker said in the feedback thread, there is just took much similarity. (After all, he tricked everyone about Cnauir with a little fancy wordplay)
I think Geoffrobro and what you've put together is nice and is how it works in the Outside. But, there is far more to it than just that.
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That's excellent and makes a very hard thing to figure out made simple. Yet, Kellhus uses the phrase "There is a head on a pole behind you", in the mundane world. He also remarks about how it is always there and always has been. We get Kelmommas being bit on the back by Sammy. And, Onkhis. I don't care what Bakker said in the feedback thread, there is just took much similarity. (After all, he tricked everyone about Cnauir with a little fancy wordplay)
I think Geoffrobro and what you've put together is nice and is how it works in the Outside. But, there is far more to it than just that.
I'm not really feeling any connection with Onkhis though, besides there simply being a head. I think there is far more behind the Onkhis-Siöl connection than with anything to do with the Head on the Pole. It would be rather odd that Kellhus invokes a God to help him, when he is essentially at war with the Hundred. I think it far more likely Bakker is being honest here.
As for why he says it applies in the mundane world, well, that is the nature of the reflection. There is a Head on a Pole behind all of them, at all times. One simply doesn't see it, because they aren't "looking back" at it. This is what Kellhus "discovered," that the Head is there. Were anyone else able to look through their own soul, they would see this as well.
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That's excellent and makes a very hard thing to figure out made simple. Yet, Kellhus uses the phrase "There is a head on a pole behind you", in the mundane world. He also remarks about how it is always there and always has been. We get Kelmommas being bit on the back by Sammy. And, Onkhis. I don't care what Bakker said in the feedback thread, there is just took much similarity. (After all, he tricked everyone about Cnauir with a little fancy wordplay)
I think Geoffrobro and what you've put together is nice and is how it works in the Outside. But, there is far more to it than just that.
I'm not really feeling any connection with Onkhis though, besides there simply being a head. I think there is far more behind the Onkhis-Siöl connection than with anything to do with the Head on the Pole. It would be rather odd that Kellhus invokes a God to help him, when he is essentially at war with the Hundred. I think it far more likely Bakker is being honest here.
As for why he says it applies in the mundane world, well, that is the nature of the reflection. There is a Head on a Pole behind all of them, at all times. One simply doesn't see it, because they aren't "looking back" at it. This is what Kellhus "discovered," that the Head is there. Were anyone else able to look through their own soul, they would see this as well.
Right. And isn't that all connected to the darkess that comes before? And all the other mumbo jumbo philosophical stuff about your emotions preceding you? I mean it's a major theme of the entire series and Onkis REFLECTS that perfectly, by her definition, provided in the glossary. Is that just coincidence?
ETA: and we have evidence (well, I believe so) of another of the 100 aiding Kellhus for reasons unknown, Ajokli.
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Right. And isn't that all connected to the darkess that comes before? And all the other mumbo jumbo philosophical stuff about your emotions preceding you? I mean it's a major theme of the entire series and Onkis REFLECTS that perfectly, by her definition, provided in the glossary. Is that just coincidence?
ETA: and we have evidence (well, I believe so) of another of the 100 aiding Kellhus for reasons unknown, Ajokli.
A fair point, but I don't think everything has to lead back to that Darkness. I think the Head on a Pole is recursive, in the same way that Shae's soul-trap is. Indeed Darkness precedes, generally, but with Kellhus now, I think things are different. I think Kellhus is no long in the cycle of Darkness preceding him. That is kind of my point in the other thread about his visions. It seems that it isn't Darkness that precedes him now, it is himself.
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Right. And isn't that all connected to the darkess that comes before? And all the other mumbo jumbo philosophical stuff about your emotions preceding you? I mean it's a major theme of the entire series and Onkis REFLECTS that perfectly, by her definition, provided in the glossary. Is that just coincidence?
ETA: and we have evidence (well, I believe so) of another of the 100 aiding Kellhus for reasons unknown, Ajokli.
A fair point, but I don't think everything has to lead back to that Darkness. I think the Head on a Pole is recursive, in the same way that Shae's soul-trap is. Indeed Darkness precedes, generally, but with Kellhus now, I think things are different. I think Kellhus is no long in the cycle of Darkness preceding him. That is kind of my point in the other thread about his visions. It seems that it isn't Darkness that precedes him now, it is himself.
I like the idea, never made that connection. I don't see where we can just throw away obvious connections though. I will admit that what you propose, that the darkness no longer precedes him, he does, is indeed what it's meant to represent. He's essentially taking over that role, of Onkhis. Because, for everyone else (basically) on Earwa the darkness does precede them.
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All this looking forward/looking back stuff makes me think of the WLW visions.
If there is a head on a pole behind everyone, then why is only Kellhus safe in the Outside? Its implied early on that no-one, except Kellhus, that has 'traveled' to the outside has returned.
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I like the idea, never made that connection. I don't see where we can just throw away obvious connections though. I will admit that what you propose, that the darkness no longer precedes him, he does, is indeed what it's meant to represent. He's essentially taking over that role, of Onkhis. Because, for everyone else (basically) on Earwa the darkness does precede them.
Indeed, I think that is one reason why Moe is dead. He surmised that nothing breaks the Principle of Before and After and he was wrong. While the Onkis connection is strong, I don't think the Head is representational of Her. I feel pretty sure it's Kellhus' own head, especially given what Bakker said about it's inspiration. I'm open to being proven wrong later, but I think we have good evidence that it is indeed a case of a Watcher-Watched loop with Kellhus himself.
All this looking forward/looking back stuff makes me think of the WLW visions.
If there is a head on a pole behind everyone, then why is only Kellhus safe in the Outside? Its implied early on that no-one, except Kellhus, that has 'traveled' to the outside has returned.
That's a good question. One I don't know that we have textual evidence to prove, one way or another. Perhaps Kellhus is the first to be able to access the Outside through the cipher of his own soul? In this way, his access is recursive, his body through his soul, his soul through his body. That probably doesn't actually make sense, but note, his eyes are in his brow, even though he is in the Outside. So, he keeps the loop closed by never breaking the eye contact he has with himself (the Head) and so the loop never breaks. I am guessing that only a Dunyain would have that kind of willpower, or at least, no one else ever tried it who would.
I think the key though is the indivisibility that the Watcher-Watched loop provides. As in the quote I had above, the ciphrang seek to tear him apart, he cannot be. Because of the Head on the Pole, in other words, because he can recursively look back and in that looking, he is a loop, with no end. In other words, a circle, so there are no gaps, no holds, no purchase for an agency to tear him away from his body.
The part where he uses the Head and the Pole as a weapon of sorts is a bit more confusing. I think here, the idea is that his physical form, in relation to the Outside, is unmovable. So, he can cast them against it, since they have no ability to move him on the Inside, yet being in the Loop allows him to be on both the Outside and the Inside.
No doubt I am missing something, but I feel pretty good about this being on the right track, overall.
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I think the key though is the indivisibility that the Watcher-Watched loop provides. As in the quote I had above, the ciphrang seek to tear him apart, he cannot be. Because of the Head on the Pole, in other words, because he can recursively look back and in that looking, he is a loop, with no end. In other words, a circle, so there are no gaps, no holds, no purchase for an agency to tear him away from his body.
Very interesting idea about the indivisible watcher-watched loop.
I see a parallel with Kelmomas's and Samarmas's gazes locked into each other before being separated by a droning voice repeating the same sentence over and again.
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I think the key though is the indivisibility that the Watcher-Watched loop provides. As in the quote I had above, the ciphrang seek to tear him apart, he cannot be. Because of the Head on the Pole, in other words, because he can recursively look back and in that looking, he is a loop, with no end. In other words, a circle, so there are no gaps, no holds, no purchase for an agency to tear him away from his body.
Very interesting idea about the indivisible watcher-watched loop.
I see a parallel with Kelmomas's and Samarmas's gazes locked into each other before being separated by a droning voice repeating the same sentence over and again.
Interesting observation. Perhaps this is why they are still "connected," in a sense? Perhaps they were never actually divided, only separated to a degree?
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H, I am totally in with what your saying with Kellhus, he has closed the cycle and is preceding hisself, where as with everyone else it is the darkness that precedes them. Hence, being blind to the head on a pole behind you. (i will substitute my theory here, that the head on a pole is Onkhis, that is who has been designated as the the darkness that comes before as a aspect of the God. Yet, Kellhus doesn't need her, he has bypassed her, so to say.)
Now, with that sounding with a lot like Kelmommas, I instantly thought, that's what makes him blind to the Gods. But, indeed, the opposite would be true, he is open to the Gods. So, how does Yatwer not account for him? He has to be aided by Ajokli, simple and plain. We know for sure he isn't blinded from the Gods, because Celmommas is his predecessor, and Gilgoal came to him. Also, alas, we have the beetle scene and I assume that Ajokli was really smiling down on him.
ETA: concerning Onkhis. I am not saying she literally is the head on the pole behind you, from your theory that is your soul, I assume or something like it (sorry, I have a hard time putting this shit to words). But, it the diety humankind has designated as the darkness that comes before. I'm repeating myself, I'm just trying to make what I'm saying clear. I don't know that I am.
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Bakker confirmed that the head is not Onkis... However he didn't say that it wasn't related to Onkis in some way. So I think the theories are fair game.
Also, something that came to mind recently: the Onkis idol is said to look like a beautiful woman, but somehow also common (or a similar word, sorry can't remember exactly).
Serwe?
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Bakker confirmed that the head is not Onkis... However he didn't say that it wasn't related to Onkis in some way. So I think the theories are fair game.
Also, something that came to mind recently: the Onkis idol is said to look like a beautiful woman, but somehow also common (or a similar word, sorry can't remember exactly).
Serwe?
Excellent!
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Oh, cunning!
I guess Saubon as Gilgaől, based on him being the Battle Celebrant in TWP and the few accounts on the Unification Wars?
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Alright, I get what you are saying, that Onkis is essentially an avatar of the Head on the Pole. I'm still not really buying on it, because I feel like the Darkness that Comes Before is the Gods and the Head is your own head, reflected. I mean, I could be wrong, but that's how I am currently inclined to lean on it.
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Alright, I get what you are saying, that Onkis is essentially an avatar of the Head on the Pole. I'm still not really buying on it, because I feel like the Darkness that Comes Before is the Gods and the Head is your own head, reflected. I mean, I could be wrong, but that's how I am currently inclined to lean on it.
H, come on man, you gotta give somewhere. I can't make this shit up, you know this.
The idol was worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman , beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to breakthrough her frozen hair. Her image never failed to stir something within him, and this is why he always returned to her: she was this stirring, the dark place where the flurries of his thought arose. She came before him.
By the way, I'm loving that Serwe bit. Saubon? What about the Captain, Bakker said we're not done with him yet. What makes all that very interesting to me, is we know Kellhus has created his own Ciphrang/sorcerer hybrid running to Zuem right now. We obviously, know that the Captain was one also, how many more have done the deed and went on to the Outside? Intriguing. Very.
Not to go off on a tangent here, we might have start some new threads with all these ideas popping up. But check out the Circumfix scene with Serwe and how Kellhus is obsessed with preserving her and denying what he really feeling. Emotion. Its when he first falls into his dream. I forget how good all of PoN actually is. Its great.
Bound to a circle, swinging from the limb of a dark tree. Bound to Serwë. Cold and lifeless against him. Serwë. Spinning in slow circles. A fly crawled across her cheek, paused before a breathless nostril. He puffed air across her dead skin, and the fly was gone. Must keep her clean. Her eyes half-open, papyrus-dry. Serwë! Breathe girl, breathe! I command it! I come before you. I come before! Bound skin-to-skin to Serwë. What have I … What? What? A convulsion of some kind. No … No! I must focus. I must assess … Unblinking eyes, staring down black cheeks, out to the stars. There’s no circumstance beyond … No circumstance beyond … Logos. I’m one of the Conditioned. From his shins to his cheek, he could feel her, radiating a cold as deep as her bones. Breathe! Breathe! Dry … And so still! So impossibly still! Father, please! Please make her breathe! I … I can walk no farther. Face so dark, mottled like something from the sea … How had she ever smiled? Focus! What happens? All is in disarray. And they’ve killed her. They’ve murdered my wife. I gave her to them. What did you say? I gave her to them. Why? Why would you do this? For you … For them. Something dropped within him, and he tumbled into sleep, cold water rinsing bruised and broken skin. Dreams followed. Dark tunnels, weary earth. A ridge, curved like a sleeping woman’s hip, against the night sky.
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H, come on man, you gotta give somewhere. I can't make this shit up, you know this.
Hey, I gave! ;)
I mean, I see it. I get it. I'm just not really buying it, per se. I'm apt to take Bakker at face value here, which could well be a trap, but could also be a fact. To me, he said, "the head is not Onkis" and the Head is, essentially, a reflection, your own head. I'm buying that those two things really do go together. Sure, he might be misleading us, but I just don't feel like that's the case here.
I think the real trail to follow with Onkis is the Copper Tree-Siöl connection. That I think has more to do with the nature of her representation than the Head does, honestly. I'm keen to be disproved, but for now, I have doubts.
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By the way, I'm loving that Serwe bit. Saubon? What about the Captain, Bakker said we're not done with him yet. What makes all that very interesting to me, is we know Kellhus has created his own Ciphrang/sorcerer hybrid running to Zuem right now. We obviously, know that the Captain was one also, how many more have done the deed and went on to the Outside? Intriguing. Very.
MSJ, sorry, it was not obvious for me, regarding the Captain being a Ciphrang. Was this concluded based on Mimara's Judging Eye?
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People think that those that mimara sees as particularly damned, like Ironsoul, are in fact ciphrang.
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People think that those that mimara sees as particularly damned, like Ironsoul, are in fact ciphrang.
Indeed. And I'm not sure that is a correct interpretation.
Before TGO, I was under the impression as well. But despite the description by Mimara being "I have never seen anyone so damned", I'm almost positive both Cnaïur and the Captain are not Ciphrang as such. Just men so much consumed by their passions/emotions that it eclipses all their other deeds, and them therefore being lives of choice (literally) for the "Sons of this place" as described in the Head on a Pole passage.
The other scalpers were on their way to be the same, but we're killed before reaching that stage.
I also think the Meat is having the same effect (that of a catalyst) on the Men of the Ordeal: Emotions come much more to the surface because of it. That is quote clearly described in TGO. Maybe the Qirri had the same effect on Akka and Mimara. It's suggested multiple times born in WLW and TGO.
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By the way, I'm loving that Serwe bit. Saubon? What about the Captain, Bakker said we're not done with him yet. What makes all that very interesting to me, is we know Kellhus has created his own Ciphrang/sorcerer hybrid running to Zuem right now. We obviously, know that the Captain was one also, how many more have done the deed and went on to the Outside? Intriguing. Very.
MSJ, sorry, it was not obvious for me, regarding the Captain being a Ciphrang. Was this concluded based on Mimara's Judging Eye?
Well it isn't once or twice, Mimara talks about it a few times throughout their journey, Sarl remarks a few times that he HAS been to hell. He doesn't sleep and even Akka notes that. There are a bunch of clues and thats off the top of my head.
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Also, yes I have may of gotten ahead of myself. He probably wasn't a Ciphrang. He could have been. He could be been more closely to related to what Cnaüir is, on the way there.
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Also, yes I have may of gotten ahead of myself. He probably wasn't a Ciphrang. He could have been. He could be been more closely to related to what Cnaüir is, on the way there.
See, that grabbed my interest, since you were so straightforward, I thought, 'what did I miss...?'
With the theories here of reflections and past-future versions, I'm waiting for someone to come up with the theory that Kosoter is one of the two demon heads that Kellhus keeps around. Well. Maybe?
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Haha Hiro, you never know. Come up with it yourself ;)
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Also, yes I have may of gotten ahead of myself. He probably wasn't a Ciphrang. He could have been. He could be been more closely to related to what Cnaüir is, on the way there.
ETA: though just setting here thinking. If he was a Malowebi like Ciphrang, when is head was chopped off, you think it would've went back to Ciphrang form. It does not. I'd be willing to admit a strike against Ciphrang Captain.
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Also, yes I have may of gotten ahead of myself. He probably wasn't a Ciphrang. He could have been. He could be been more closely to related to what Cnaüir is, on the way there.
See, that grabbed my interest, since you were so straightforward, I thought, 'what did I miss...?'
With the theories here of reflections and past-future versions, I'm waiting for someone to come up with the theory that Kosoter is one of the two demon heads that Kellhus keeps around. Well. Maybe?
Bakker said in the feedback thread we are not done with Kosoter. That's a distinct possibility.
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Bakker said in the feedback thread we are not done with Kosoter. That's a distinct possibility.
I think I said it before, but there has to be something special about those two heads, right? No way he just collected the first two ciphrang he met, or something else.
What if the other one is Saubon? A fun idea, not all together implausible either.
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Thanks for joining this rocky boat, MSJ ;D
I think I mentioned it earlier: I believe the heads are representations of Saubon's and Proyas's (ciphrang?) aspects.
It makes sense:
They're his favorite servants... his Exalt-Generals. Proyas is even his favourite and most loyal slave.
Also, the use of the head came right after Saubon's death, and there's something in his death that just didn't feel right.
Add to that the description we get from the bad stuff Saubon did during the Unification Wars.
I think he had to die at Dagliash in order to be awakened on Malowebi's body.
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I like it. I mean, it's not provable as yet, but I like it. It would explain why he is so certain that Ciphrang-Malowebi is going to do what he told him (it?).
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Thanks for joining this rocky boat, MSJ ;D
I think I mentioned it earlier: I believe the heads are representations of Saubon's and Proyas's (ciphrang?) aspects.
It makes sense:
They're his favorite servants... his Exalt-Generals. Proyas is even his favourite and most loyal slave.
Also, the use of the head came right after Saubon's death, and there's something in his death that just didn't feel right.
Add to that the description we get from the bad stuff Saubon did during the Unification Wars.
I think he had to die at Dagliash in order to be awakened on Malowebi's body.
Yeah, but what about good old Kosoter?
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Yeah, but what about good old Kosoter?
My guess is that he "bounced" again:
He shudders with silent laughter. "Sometimes souls get mixed up. Sometimes the dead bounce! Sometimes old men awaken behind the eyes of babes! Sometimes wolves..."
"What are you saying?"
"Don't cross him," he rasps with something like conspiratorial glee. "He-he! Oh, no, girl. Never cross him!"
Maybe the line of old men awakening behind the eyes of babes is foreshadowing, perhaps the crab-handed boy dies and Kosoter awkens?
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Thanks for joining this rocky boat, MSJ ;D
I think I mentioned it earlier: I believe the heads are representations of Saubon's and Proyas's (ciphrang?) aspects.
It makes sense:
They're his favorite servants... his Exalt-Generals. Proyas is even his favourite and most loyal slave.
Also, the use of the head came right after Saubon's death, and there's something in his death that just didn't feel right.
Add to that the description we get from the bad stuff Saubon did during the Unification Wars.
I think he had to die at Dagliash in order to be awakened on Malowebi's body.
Yeah, but what about good old Kosoter?
Im all about rocky boats, I live for the high seas of theories. I get where you're going with Proyas and Saubon. As, time is not a boundary in TSA as we've came to find out. I am leaning towards Hiro and Kosoter. If only because Bakker said we are not done with him. And if we're not, I would love love love to see ol' Sarl with his head still attached to his beard. Bringing Kellhus's special little Ciphrang back to him. Sarl amongst the Scalded asking where the Aspect-Emperor might be? However it plays out, I hope we see how far gone Sarl is by now.
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Yeah, but what about good old Kosoter?
My guess is that he "bounced" again:
He shudders with silent laughter. "Sometimes souls get mixed up. Sometimes the dead bounce! Sometimes old men awaken behind the eyes of babes! Sometimes wolves..."
"What are you saying?"
"Don't cross him," he rasps with something like conspiratorial glee. "He-he! Oh, no, girl. Never cross him!"
Maybe the line of old men awakening behind the eyes of babes is foreshadowing, perhaps the crab-handed boy dies and Kosoter awkens?
Ooh, maybe he bounced to Sarl? I've not the time to look it up, but when Akka and Mimara leave the Qirri for him, there seemed to be a change in him. See, the high seas.
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nah kosoter is hanging from Kellhu's belt. the demon head took his form when off screen kellhus created him. and he took it's. That's why one of the heads was shouting fungal warnings to malowbi.
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Starting my TDTCB reread, and couldn't help but post the quote Bakker starts off the book with, in light of the revelations post-TGO.
I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit—namely, that a thought comes when “it” wants, not when “I” want . . . —FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE, BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL
With his talk with Proyas about the God being a "it", and our talks about what exactly the "Thought" is. Has he been trolling us since the beginning? I think so.
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Define trolling? That no one really 'got it' (whatever it is) doesn't mean he's trolling.
Also, you can't substitute God for "it" in that - I'm fairly certain that goes against everything Nietzsche was about.
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I didn't mean in a malicious way. Just that I found it incredible that that's the quote he starts off the series with in light of what we now know post-TGO.
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I don't think the series is really about everything being the gods, of God's will. In fact, something of the opposite, seeing as to how the 100 need to war against the world, in a manner of speaking.
The God of Gods is an "it" because, like Kellhus says, it is beyond any human analogy, or human quality.
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Here is what I am saying and why I found it incredible.
1. We know that Kellhus claims that the God comes to him and tells him things. And, told Proyas that he doesn't trust the Voice because it's insane.
2. He calls the God "it".
3. That quote refers to a thought as "it".
4. We have debated on this very board, since the release of TGO, that who the Voice really is is the culmination of The Thousandfold Thought. Ergo, "it", what Kellhus thinks is God is really the "thought".
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Ah thanks for the explination, that makes a lot more sense now.
If the Thought is its own entity of some kind, then its becomes pretty indistinguishable from The God. I don't subsribe to this line of thinking, but if you do, then I suppose that makes sense :) .
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Thoughts as opposed to Emotions, is possibly what defines the series. Emotions are clearly gender-defined; Thought isn't.
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Emotions are gender defined? Give some examples, I'm not following.
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I'd say that Bakker knew that from the beginning he knew where this series was going. That quote wasn't incidental to what we learn in TGO. Let me ask you, what would be more philosophical than a "thought" becoming the mover/God of a world?
Just thinking on things, I am very close to switching my thoughts on what will happen. Kellhus is blinded to the fact that the God is really the "thought". He thinks it the God who has been speaking to him this entire time... I'd venture that who we see as Kellhus looking at himself in that last vision might actually be Moe or Koringhus and Kellhus will be blind to the fact that he isn't the prime mover he thinks he is. I see a curveball coming out of nowhere to smack him upside the head. Kellhus thinks that he has mastered everything on Earwa, but I'm slowly thinking that he will have been used by someone.
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Emotions are gender defined? Give some examples, I'm not following.
There are emotions that are culturally tied to either men or women, giving it a gender. For example, love and jealousy are traditionally considered female, while arrogance/machoism (no clue as to how to write that) are considered male.
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Emotions are gender defined? Give some examples, I'm not following.
There are emotions that are culturally tied to either men or women, giving it a gender. For example, love and jealousy are traditionally considered female, while arrogance/machoism (no clue as to how to write that) are considered male.
Certainly I understand that in those broad terms. I thought you were pointing to something specific or explicit within TSA, so nevermind.
I'd say that Bakker knew that from the beginning he knew where this series was going. That quote wasn't incidental to what we learn in TGO. Let me ask you, what would be more philosophical than a "thought" becoming the mover/God of a world?
I gottcha. Makes sense.
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I've just gotta add: when I came to the first instance of "There is a head on a pole behind you" in TGO, that may have been the biggest "Wtf?!" reaction I've had in all my years of reading fiction. I still find it chilling.....because it's BEHIND you...
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If only we knew what it was. Frustrating.
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If I might elaborate my fascination with this image...
First, heads don't belong on poles (Pikes, no problem... ;). Even having been steeped in a grimdark broth for six volumes, this matter-of-fact statement really packs a punch. Especially as it's delivered in the second-person case. This draws the reader into the predicament.
Consider the peculiar space a reader of fantasy fiction occupies. He shares in the various POVs created by the author. He struggles to keep a grip on both the narrative and the structure of the fictional world. And then....WHAM! He is IN the story! There is a fucking HEAD on a fucking POLE! And it's right there BEHIND him!
I hope that resonates with other Bakker fans out there. IMHO, there are lots of similar moments that are equally gobsmacking. But this one really grabbed me.
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There's were lots of punch-in-the-gut moments of me throughout the series, but especially in TGO. Lets hope TUC carries that through -> we'll be a beat up group by the time its over.
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There's were lots of punch-in-the-gut moments of me throughout the series, but especially in TGO. Lets hope TUC carries that through -> we'll be a beat up group by the time its over.
I've only had one of those moments in the whole series, which is definitely an incitement of just have messed up I am.
I think how he wrote the Head on a Pole part is also important, drawing you in with the breaking of the 4th wall.
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There's were lots of punch-in-the-gut moments of me throughout the series, but especially in TGO. Lets hope TUC carries that through -> we'll be a beat up group by the time its over.
I concur: We've been through a lot, but TGO was overwhelming, compared to earlier parts. And apart from the Korringhus Revelation scene at the end, the Head on a Pole passage is the one I reread most.
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There's were lots of punch-in-the-gut moments of me throughout the series, but especially in TGO. Lets hope TUC carries that through -> we'll be a beat up group by the time its over.
I concur: We've been through a lot, but TGO was overwhelming, compared to earlier parts. And apart from the Korringhus Revelation scene at the end, the Head on a Pole passage is the one I reread most.
HEAD ON A POLE GAVE ME THE JIMJAMS SOMETHING AWFUL
THE STYLE FOR TGO IS CONTINUOUS WITH TUC, SO LOOK FORWARD TO MORE MOMENTS LIKE THIS