The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: Wilshire on December 06, 2015, 01:21:41 am

Title: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2015, 01:21:41 am
Part two of the slog.


Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 06, 2015, 01:35:57 am
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Stung by a momentary panic, Xerius looked from the approaching Conriyans to the flutter of wings above. As always, sparrows wheeled and jousted beneath the dim vaults. As always, they calmed him. For a moment he wondered what an emperor was to a sparrow. Just another man.

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Something warm and viscous struck his cheek. Stunned, he slapped at his face, then studied the muck on his fingers. A premonition of doom struck him, gouged his breast of all breath. What was this? Some kind of omen?

Just knowing that the Consult is literally everywhere, when I read these passages, a thought struck me. Aurang (as a Synethse) is among those birds, and I'm fairly certain he shat on Xerius for his dumbass Indenture. We find out that the Consult want the Cishaurim destroyed and Aurang probably wants it done quickly. This isn't even crackpot, just what I think every time I read this scene.

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As though walking across the back of roiling smoke and dust, a Schoolman drifted toward them. He slowed, floating the height of a tree-top above them. His black silk robe boiled in the mountain wind, its gold trim undulating like snakes in water. White light flashed from his eyes and mouth. A barrage of arrows winked into cinders against his spherical Wards. The ghost of a dragon’s head ponderously ascended from his hands. Cnaiür saw glassy scales and eyes like globes of bloody water.

The first time I read this series, this passage is what got me hooked. It was unlike anything I'd read before, and was struck by terror and wonder all at the same time. I love this description of a Earwan schoolman.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 06, 2015, 06:45:31 am
Aurang (as a Synethse) is among those birds, and I'm fairly certain he shat on Xerius for his dumbass Indenture. We find out that the Consult want the Cishaurim destroyed and Aurang probably wants it done quickly. This isn't even crackpot, just what I think every time I read this scene.

Lol - me too, MSJ.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 06, 2015, 07:46:06 am
Thanks for getting ahead on the Slog MSJ; and thanks Wilshire for keeping up lol.

The first time I read this series, this passage is what got me hooked. It was unlike anything I'd read before, and was struck by terror and wonder all at the same time. I love this description of a Earwan schoolman.
Every time I reread this series I find more affirmations as to why it is my absolute favourite. I'll never forget the first time I read about Skafra and Seswatha duking it out above a burning city. Ahh memories.. (feel free to capitalize Som  ;))
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Inkorot on December 06, 2015, 06:25:03 pm
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Now it suddenly struck him (Xerius) that he’d never looked into any of their eyes—not once. Matching the Emperor’s gaze was forbidden to those without Imperial Blood. The thought horrified him. Save for Skeaos, I know none of these people.


I now remember noticing this bit on my first read, thinking that this must be significant, and then forgetting it. But on rereading, the revelation that Xerius has been isolated from his entire court besides "Skeaos" is beatifully ominous.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 06, 2015, 06:49:52 pm
Quote
Now it suddenly struck him (Xerius) that he’d never looked into any of their eyes—not once. Matching the Emperor’s gaze was forbidden to those without Imperial Blood. The thought horrified him. Save for Skeaos, I know none of these people.


I now remember noticing this bit on my first read, thinking that this must be significant, and then forgetting it. But on rereading, the revelation that Xerius has been isolated from his entire court besides "Skeaos" is beatifully ominous.


And his mother, who is a Skin-Spy also. Until Kellhus they had the entire Three-Seas under control, High Ainon, Nansur, Sarcellus in Carythusal and throughout Kian too before Moe. The Dûnyain really screwed up their plans, to say the least.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 07, 2015, 12:44:42 pm
Just finished chapter 5 this morning, because I didn't have time to read over the weekend.

It would seem to me though, that at this point, Skeaös and the Emperess are not yet skin-spies.  I believe that it is only after Xerius meets with Mallahet and learns of the SS's involvement, and so work against the Holy War, that the Consult moves in and starts directing things there.

Note how all of a sudden Skeaös' story changes in later chapters, where as before, here in chapter 5, he even cites the Indenture as his own idea.  I would think that Emperess Istriya was replaced after Skeaös was eliminated, as well, to keep an agent in the midst of the Emperor.

The Consult wants the Holy War to succeed.  Why then would the Skeaös agent not be informed of  the Scarlet Spires' joining the Holy War?  The Consult certainly knew by then.  No, I think that it is only after Xerius learns of this in the Mallahet meeting and is actively planning to subvert the Holy War that Skeaös is replaced.  I think it is just before he meets with Conphas that the substitution takes place.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2015, 01:05:45 pm
H, you could very well be right about Skeaös, but, from the first time we meet Istriya there are hints the something is different. Here is what Xerius said the first time we meet her.

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He sensed something odd in her manner, something bottled.

When Conphas comes back from Kiyuth:

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A splendid idea, Uncle.” Conphas glanced to his right and finally saw his grandmother. She wore a green silk gown crisscrossed by a form-hugging sash of blue. As always, she looked an old whore playing the coquette. But there was something in her expression . She seemed different somehow.

So both times something is different about Istriya, enough that it is remarked upon. Also, she doesn't seem to be on the same side as Xerius and Skeaös in that first meeting. She's against the Indenture and is prodding Xerius with Maithenet.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 07, 2015, 01:19:12 pm
H, you could very well be right about Skeaös, but, from the first time we meet Istriya there are hints the something is different. Here is what Xerius said the first time we meet her.

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He sensed something odd in her manner, something bottled.

When Conphas comes back from Kiyuth:

Quote
A splendid idea, Uncle.” Conphas glanced to his right and finally saw his grandmother. She wore a green silk gown crisscrossed by a form-hugging sash of blue. As always, she looked an old whore playing the coquette. But there was something in her expression . She seemed different somehow.

So both times something is different about Istriya, enough that it is remarked upon.

You could well be right, she does seem to be attempting to guide Xerius away from subverting the Holy War from the get go.

Thinking more upon that now, it would make sense, that she was replaced, then the Consult, perhaps because it was easier, but then the Consult realized that she didn't have his ear as much as Skeaös did, so they moved to replace him too.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2015, 01:20:36 pm
Lol, I just edited my post to the same effect. Ninja'd!!
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 07, 2015, 01:26:46 pm
Lol, I just edited my post to the same effect. Ninja'd!!

You got me!

I am thinking that the Consult probably didn't realize how dangerous Xerius could be, in the sense that he would be so greedy in subverting the Holy War and also that Mallahet (Moe) would completely out think them by going direct to Xerius.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 07, 2015, 01:32:49 pm


I am thinking that the Consult probably didn't realize how dangerous Xerius could be, in the sense that he would be so greedy in subverting the Holy War and also that Mallahet (Moe) would completely out think them by going direct to Xerius.

Yea, the Consult's problems always go back to the Dûnyain. And, on reread Xerius is a smarter, shrewder leader than I gave him credit for. He obviously has multiple reasons to be paranoid other than family history. Skin-Spies notwithstanding, you have Conphas that was going to kill him and Xerius planned for that outcome.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 07, 2015, 01:54:37 pm
Yeah, at first blush, Aurang and co. seem pretty bumbling, since they fail so many times, but in reality, given what they could know and anticipate, I think their plans are pretty cunning.  Unfortunately, they are running into the freight-train that is TTT.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 08, 2015, 01:20:17 pm
Sorry, double post, but finished chapter 6 this morning.

I may have missed something really subtle, but it seems this one was pretty straight forward though.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 08, 2015, 01:22:41 pm
I think the Quorum will allow it.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 08, 2015, 01:38:58 pm
I think the Quorum will allow it.

I humbly thank them for their clemency.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 09, 2015, 12:42:23 pm
Chapter 7, as had been noted before, it is mentioned that Istriya is probably already replaced before this, but she almost certainly is now:

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As always, she looked an old whore playing the coquette. But there was something in her expression. She seemed different somehow.

Her change is not just in looks however:

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Istriya had always goaded him, but never had she pressed her banter so close to sedition.

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“I’ve never known you to be impolitic, Mother . . . Only to appear so.”

Not only this, but while i previously thought that Skeaös was already replaced and Istriya would be later, I think it is the reverse:

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But Istriya’s gaze had drifted to the Prime Counsel. “You’ve been awfully silent, Skeaös.”
“It’s not m-my place to speak, Empress.”
“No? But this mad scheme is yours, isn’t it?”
“It’s mine, Mother,” Xerius snapped, irked by her assumption. “The wretch has spent tedious weeks trying to talk me out of it.” Even as he gave breath to these words, he knew he’d blundered.
“Is that so? And why’s that, Skeaös? As much as I despise you and the inordinate influence you have over my son, I’ve always found your thinking sound. What insights have you to shed?”
Skeaös stared at her helplessly, said nothing.
“You fear for your life, don’t you, Skeaös?”

I think it is after this that Skeaös is replaced.  The Consult realizes here that Istriya is not going to be able to guide the Emperor to where they need him to be.  As we'll see in the next chapter, there is a sudden change in how Skeaös acts, but I'll talk about that later.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 09, 2015, 03:16:46 pm
Yea, I believe Istriya has been replaced since weve met her. And, I tend to think your earlier assessment that Skeaös was replaced right before Conphas came back from Kiyuth, to be accurate. From that point on he is no longer in agreement with everything Xerius says and wants. Here in Chapter 7 its evident, because he didn't agree with giving up the Vulgar HW. Why Not? Its what's best for the Empire, Conphas see's the brilliance in it. No, he's a Skin-Spy, and wants nothing short of making it to Shimeh and the Cishaurim. But, as you say, its very evident in the next chapter.

ETA: ahhhhhh, you're right. After reading your quote again, Skeaös was in agreement with Xerius. Xerius was lying about that, never caught that.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2015, 05:20:33 pm
On previous reads I felt that Istriya was replaced only after Skeos was ousted. But I noted as you all did, that every time she shows up it is mentioned in some way or another that she appears different.

Going back to some earlier notes though, it doesn't appear that mhyrr every comes up with her or skeos.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2015, 06:19:10 pm
Thoughts on this part of the slog:

Lots of good quotes from Cnaiur or his pov parts
"A school Bala! Conphas has brought a school!" - An incredible moment of revelation
"He Kay nowhere, among the dead" - I just like this line
"Understanding rumbled I  with the thunder" - love the imagery of this whole scene, this is a great line though.
Pg 226 "I am your end"... - this speech gave me chills. so good.

Eli is a "subdidact" two years prior to his ascension to grandmaster. A rank of the SS hierarchy I have not noticed.

I might mention this in my other post about potential sons of Moenghus, but I'll note here that conphas is 27 years old (mentioned at the end of this section) and his father is unknown. Cnaiur mentions "29 years ago" is when moenghus passes through his tribe. So about 1 year in the wilderness before he meets the Utemont... that leaves about 15 months of unknown whereabouts before Istriya's half sister is impregnated with Conphas. So there's that.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 09, 2015, 06:31:33 pm
On previous reads I felt that Istriya was replaced only after Skeos was ousted. But I noted as you all did, that every time she shows up it is mentioned in some way or another that she appears different.

Going back to some earlier notes though, it doesn't appear that mhyrr every comes up with her or skeos.

Yeah, the mention of myrrh is missing from both of them the whole time, which it's not clear is just coincidence or purposeful.

One thing is that Skeaös and Istriya's interaction here seems to point at them not being on the same page, which, if they are both skin-spies, they certainly would be.  Textual evidence certainly seems to point to Istriya being the replaced one already, so that leaves Skeaös as the one not yet so.

I might mention this in my other post about potential sons of Moenghus, but I'll note jere that conphas is 27 years old (mentioned at the end of this section) and his father is unknown. Cnaiur mentions "29 years ago" is when moenghus passes through his tribe. So about 1 year in the wilderness before he meets the Utemont... that leaves about 15 months of unknown whereabouts before Istriya's half sister is impregnated with Conphas. So there's that.

I'm not sure I'll bite on that.  My feeling is that Moe went right from the Scylvendi to the Fanim.  If he stopped in Nansur, why would he not have simply infiltrated the Thousand Temples or the Imperial Siak?  IIRC, it's mentioned that Moe just comes out of the desert.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2015, 06:38:31 pm
I'm just saying g the timeline and missing father line up ;). If Moe has 5 sons, this could be number 4 :P

Also, though it's in the next section, myrrh is mentioned amid the flapping of wings.... another point for skin spy, but the wings...
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 10, 2015, 11:52:21 am
Wilshire, right before the "I am your end" speech, which as a Cnaüir fan is the greatest, I noticed something. When Yursalka first spots Cnaüir outside the yaksh.

Quote
Incandescent white cracked the sky, and for an instant , he saw the entire world: the desolate horizon, the sweep
of distant pastures, the surrounding yaksh of his kinsmen, and the lone figure standing not more than a dozen yards away, watching...

While this might be nothing other than descriptive purposes, any other time its been used to describe sorcery. I have to wonder if this is the first time Cnaüir was inhabited by Gilgoal.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 10, 2015, 12:55:40 pm
Just finished chapter 8.

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When several thousand Tydonni who’d contracted his ships defaulted on their payment, he sent them to the island of Pharixas, an old pirate stronghold of King Rauschang of Thunyerus, demanding they storm the island in lieu of monies owed. They did, and with abandon. Thousands of innocents perished. Inrithi innocents.

Not of real interest to the series, but this is no doubt a reference to the real world Fourth Crusade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade), while the Vulgar Holy War is a reference to the People's Crusade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Crusade).

More here evidence that Skeaös is now replaced, being that he does not at all tire from the climb of the stairs and also his change of heart on sacrificing the Holy War.

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But this plan of your uncle’s—to deliver a Holy War to its destruction! A Holy War! I fear for my soul, Ikurei Conphas. My soul!”

If we presume that Skeaös is now a skin-spy, I think what it talks about now is not it's soul (we know it has none), but rather it's the Consult's souls at stake.  In fact, Skeaös continues:

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“No. I care nothing for Maithanet—or Shimeh, for that matter . . . You’re young. You wouldn’t understand my motives. The young can never see life for what it is: a knife’s edge, as thin as the breaths that measure it. What gives it depth isn’t memory. I’ve memories enough for ten men, and yet my days are as thin and as shadowy as the greased linen the poor stretch over their windows. No, what gives life depth is the future. Without a future, without a horizon of promise or threat, our lives have no meaning. Only the future is real, Conphas, and unless I make amends to the gods, I’ve no future left.”

I could easily see this as Aurang's words, explaining why the world needs to be closed.  In fact, perhaps they are...

Quote
“It’s not the feast we dispute,” Skeaös replied, “it’s the price! Surely you can see this!”

A very Consult statement here, it would seem to me.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 10, 2015, 01:01:07 pm
H, and right before Skeaös leads him up the stairs and Conphas is trying to get him to succumb to the clutch, Conphas says,

Quote
He stood and looked down on the wizened man. “Lead on, old father.

There are just too many references to the Consult in there. Plus, the fact that Skeaös isn't winded at all, and lies to Conphas. Its pretty clear he is a Skin-Spy now.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 10, 2015, 01:42:09 pm
H, and right before Skeaös leads him up the stairs and Conphas is trying to get him to succumb to the clutch, Conphas says,

Quote
He stood and looked down on the wizened man. “Lead on, old father.

There are just too many references to the Consult in there. Plus, the fact that Skeaös isn't winded at all, and lies to Conphas. Its pretty clear he is a Skin-Spy now.

Yeah, it's just odd that Conphas is saying it there, but reference is reference.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 10, 2015, 02:28:33 pm
I just found it ironic, Conphas calls him old father, and indeed he is a product of the old father's.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 10, 2015, 03:48:40 pm
Wilshire, right before the "I am your end" speech, which as a Cnaüir fan is the greatest, I noticed something. When Yursalka first spots Cnaüir outside the yaksh.

Quote
Incandescent white cracked the sky, and for an instant , he saw the entire world: the desolate horizon, the sweep
of distant pastures, the surrounding yaksh of his kinsmen, and the lone figure standing not more than a dozen yards away, watching...

While this might be nothing other than descriptive purposes, any other time its been used to describe sorcery. I have to wonder if this is the first time Cnaüir was inhabited by Gilgoal.
No. See above reference to second soul
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 10, 2015, 04:31:47 pm
Locke, could you please elaborate? I have no idea what reference your speaking about. No, as in its not Gilgoal inhabiting Cnaüir?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 11, 2015, 12:00:46 am
Locke, could you please elaborate? I have no idea what reference your speaking about. No, as in its not Gilgoal inhabiting Cnaüir?
Whoops I reread the almanac chapter 6 thread as well and got it mixed up with this one.

He could feel it stir within him, his second soul, the one that blotted the sun and painted the earth with blood. Their laughter faltered before his menace. His glare struck even the smirk from their faces.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 14, 2015, 06:25:08 pm
Quote
His uncle was like those uncommon drunks who slurred and staggered day after day yet became lethally alert when confronted by danger.

Conphas pretty much nails Xerius character in one sentence. So many times you realize that all of the emperors plans and opinions are based off someone else's (mostly Skeos). Clearly he is an idiot and doesn't know what he is doing, but then he will show a slight sliver of political prowess; like his plan with the Vulgar Holy War.

This is what I find truly interesting about the character. In many other series you will see stupid characters that are unequivocally stupid, with no redeeming moments. People in real life aren't that black and white, which makes this character more realistic. I like him. I wish we got to see more of him in the subsequent novels.

Also I love this scene where Conphas is contemplating murdering Xerius right then and there, and somehow Xerius(Skeos) anticipated this and disguised the Eothic guard as Conphas's soldiers. Awesome reveal. 
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 14, 2015, 06:28:02 pm
Quote
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me, and it goes no further. I am your end, your utter obliteration!”

Sometimes I forget how brutal this series can be...

P.S. Cnaiur is awesome !
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2015, 06:32:06 pm
I give him far more credit than this. He came up with many great plans and Skeos , and/or the thing called Skeos, opposed him much of the way. Like his brilliant nephew, he exhibits moments of great brilliance, though his is tainted with more arrogance and the exesses of an emporer. Without the Dunyain machinations, the Ikurei family would have dominated the holy war in spite of the Consult working in direct oposition.



I love that speech. Gave me chills when I read it this time around, and this is my forth read of tdtcb.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 14, 2015, 06:51:24 pm
I give him far more credit than this. He came up with many great plans and Skeos , and/or the thing called Skeos, opposed him much of the way.

What other plans does he come up with on his own ? I guess it was his idea to form a treaty with Shigek. Most of the time you see him accepting his counselors ideas and acting like they are his own, which is like you said, the arrogance of being emperor.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 14, 2015, 07:32:47 pm
Really his whole plan to engineer the defeat of the holy war at shimeh is brilliant. First the bid to desteoy the scylvendi so that they can later not worry about their norther boarder. Then the Indenture, then replcing cophas's guard to prevent assassination. Then the vulgar holy war, forcing Maithanet to accept Conphas and thus the indenture. The deal with Shigek, his deals with other cities along the way to raise his standard before defeat. Then the desert, forcing the war to march without water, weakening them. Then the fleet showing up to crush what remained of the Inrithi at the gates of Shimeh.

The whole plan is utterly brilliant and even despite all that comes after, nearly successful, vying against not only  2 dunyain and a half blood, but also against the consult.

He outsmarted nearly everyone in the game. Yes, his servers help him through specific encounters, but I think he shows far, far more depth than and unwitting simpleton emperor.

Maybe your opinion will change as you read it again. I know I felt like he was hapless on my initial read. But, maybe not. As you say he gets help along the way, and it's hard to say exactly what was or wasn't his own idea.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 14, 2015, 08:53:39 pm
Maybe your opinion will change as you read it again. I know I felt like he was hapless on my initial read. But, maybe not. As you say he gets help along the way, and it's hard to say exactly what was or wasn't his own idea.

Right, but does it really matter if it was his idea or not? Nothing goes on without his consent. Also, the replacing of Conphas's soldiers was his idea, and the treachery he engineers with Skauras was all his idea and anything you mentioned post the unmasking of Skeaös. Xerius is brillant, it just takes a reread, or two to notice it.

ETA: welcome morkypep, never feel uncomfortable to voice your opinion, new perspectives are always great to read.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: morkypep on December 15, 2015, 02:16:48 am
Right, but does it really matter if it was his idea or not? Nothing goes on without his consent. Also, the replacing of Conphas's soldiers was his idea,

Actually, i think the soldier swap might have been Skeos:

Quote
Especially after the farce at the Forum the previous day. Xerius needed only to glimpse at his nephew’s face to know that Skeaös had been right. There had been murder in Conphas’s eyes.

But I think your right, it doesn't really matter who comes up with the ideas, Xerius is still able to recognize a good idea when he hears one. This is why the re-read has been so enjoyable so far. My impression of Xerius going into the re-read was that he was a dimwitted fool. How wrong I was !
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on December 16, 2015, 12:23:51 am
Really his whole plan to engineer the defeat of the holy war at shimeh is brilliant. First the bid to desteoy the scylvendi so that they can later not worry about their norther boarder. Then the Indenture, then replcing cophas's guard to prevent assassination. Then the vulgar holy war, forcing Maithanet to accept Conphas and thus the indenture. The deal with Shigek, his deals with other cities along the way to raise his standard before defeat. Then the desert, forcing the war to march without water, weakening them. Then the fleet showing up to crush what remained of the Inrithi at the gates of Shimeh.

The whole plan is utterly brilliant and even despite all that comes after, nearly successful, vying against not only  2 dunyain and a half blood, but also against the consult.

He outsmarted nearly everyone in the game. Yes, his servers help him through specific encounters, but I think he shows far, far more depth than and unwitting simpleton emperor.

Maybe your opinion will change as you read it again. I know I felt like he was hapless on my initial read. But, maybe not. As you say he gets help along the way, and it's hard to say exactly what was or wasn't his own idea.

This. I really enjoy political fantasy - see, The Grand Design, which I regularly cite as one of the best fantasy titles I've ever read. And "politicking" is nearly absent from the rest of the series (excepting Kelmomas and the awesomeness that is Esmenet confronting Maithanet in WLW), which with TWP becomes a war narrative. The whole Xerius/Maithanet conflict is what makes me love TDTCB so much; not too mention the rest of the stellar going-ons among the cast.

Aside, for my money, I'd bet that Skeaos and Istriya have been skin-spies since before their introduction to the reader. They wouldn't pretend to be more familiar with each other, which would be out of character regardless, because Aurang has barred contact between agents, as when Sarcellus the First is admonished for contacting the skin-spy assigned to watch Achamian in the Holy War's encampment about Momemn so that he can tell Esmenet he used "his sources" to find where Achamian camped. Note, after Conphas has returned and they float on the pleasure barge to see Xerius' new monument, Xerius is annoyed that Skeaos and Istriya agree about wanting him to commit to taking Shimeh - as they don't usually agree with each other otherwise - rather than recognizing the genius of how Xerius' bargain with the heathen restores the historic Empire.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on December 16, 2015, 07:04:29 pm
I wasnt a fan of the politicing at all. It really slowed the book down imo. Could have done without much of the emperor section, though it's far more lively on a reread.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Bolivar on December 21, 2015, 10:45:58 pm
Hey guys I wanted to revisit this before we moved on, since the question of Skeaos' replacement led into a pretty big question in my mind.

I definitely think he's been replaced the whole time. The first occurrence where he does something uncharacteristic appears at the end of the first Emperor chapter during the meeting with Mallahet:

Quote
“Impossible!”Skeaös spat.

Xerius whirled to face the  old Counsel, stunned by his audacity.

“What’s this now, Ikurei? You let your dogs howl at your table?”

Xerius knew he should be outraged, but such an outburst from Skeaös was . . . unprecedented.

“But he lies, God-of-Men!” Skeaös cried. “This is a heathen trick, meant to extort concessions—”

What's more important to me is why he slipped and made the outburst. As we know, the Skin Spies endeavor to support the Holy War and Skeaös is no different. The original plan for the Indenture was to stall the early arrivals from marching too soon. Maithanet, knowing the Nansurium was doomed, chose Momemn as the staging ground hoping the Emperor would make such a play. Xerius confirms this to Istriya when she chastises him for antagonizing the Shriah:

Quote
He knows as well as we that these Men of the Tusk are fools, that they think the God himself has ordained the overthrow of the heathen. If I provide Calmemunis with everything he requests, he’d march in a fortnight, certain that he could destroy the Fanim with his paltry household alone. Maithanet will mime outrage, of course, but he’ll secretly applaud what I do, knowing it’ll purchase the Holy War the time it needs to gather. Why else do you think he commanded it gather about Momemn rather than Sumna? Aside from taxing my purse, he knew I would do this.”

The axis of his plot turns on the assumption that eventually, Maithanet must instruct the Great Names to sign the Indenture, as he inevitably needs the Imperial Saik. He reveals this assumption when replying to Skaurus early in the parley:

Quote
But none of this makes Maithanet’s Holy War your instrument. You hold no hammer above us.”

“But I do, Skauras. The Men of the Tusk know nothing of your people—even less than Maithanet. Once they understand they war not only against you but against your Cishaurim, the leaders of the Holy War will sign my Indenture. The Holy War requires a School, and that School happens to be mine.”

Of course, Maithanet has subverted this plan by enlisting the Scarlet Spires. So long as Xerius is kept in the dark, Maithanet reaps the benefit of the Indenture without having to pay for it. It's a brilliant maneuver, until Skaurus leaks the secret to Xerius, prompting the uncharacteristic outburst of the Skin Spy:

Quote
“Even we know more of your accursed Shriah’s plans than you.”

Xerius glanced at Skeaös’s face, saw concern rather than calculation furrow his crinkled features. What was happening?

The way the outburst is described, it sounds like the thing called Skeaös knew about the Scarlet Spires and had been misleading Xerius, to set up the win-win for Maithanet. When the secret is out, Xerius shifts his plot to a darker course, first sacrificing the Vulgar Holy War as an example so Conphas can play the indispensable role originally meant for the Saik, then to eventually betray the Holy War somewhere before Shimeh. This is very much not what the Consult intended, hence the turning point where Skeaös is no longer supporting the plot and is actively trying to talk him out of it.

**********************

I know that was pretty long winded but if you followed this far, this is where the question comes up. Xerius prides himself for finally coming up with something entirely on his own. Which should be a giant red flag for rereaders, as the most powerful tool in the Dunyain's arsenal of manipulation is making someone think that an idea was their own. Xerius never would have shifted his plan if it weren't for Skaurus, and it's very likely that Skaurus'  parley would have never taken place were it not premeditated by Moenghus.

My question is this: why would Moenghus intentionally undermine the Holy War so much? Whether the Vulgar Holy War would have been more of a liability, it was nonetheless half their strength, it was such a loss that the Skin Spies were doing everything they could to prevent it from happening. Not to mention, if the Ikurei plot came to fruition, the Holy War would have been sabotaged before reaching Shimeh. If we didn't know better, it almost seems like Moenghus was working for his own self-preservation, manipulating the Padiraja to cede half his empire so that he and the Cishaurim could survive. Why?

My only guess is that this was calculated to provide Kellhus and Cnaiur opportunities to seize the Holy War - first on the issue of the Indenture, then in thwarting the plot to betray the Holy War in the Carathay or after Caraskand. I'm interested in knowing what you guys think, even if you think I'm reading too much into it!
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 21, 2015, 10:56:21 pm
Great post Bolivar! I like the idea that the Vulgar Holy war was really Moe's plan, nifty. But, as you said, what does that accomplish for Moe's plan? The only thing I could even think of is buying more time for Kellhus and Cnaüir. Great catch on Skeaös, it does seem as if he is already a Skin-Spy there. I thought there was some other hints also before that, I don't have time to look them up.
Title: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 22, 2015, 07:29:24 am
Bolivar, awesome.  Moenghus would have been aware of a skin spy and would have specifically goaded the skin spy verbally to trigger the outburst.

I've never really questioned that skeos was always a skin spy, Istriya less so, but I always figured skeos for one for long before the events of the novel.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 22, 2015, 03:53:59 pm
Quick question, it may have been addressed somewhere else but if it has I can't recall it. How does Moe recognize skin-spies? I might be mistaken but I thought the explanation for Kellhus recognizing them is more or less that he physically sees them, that they form a simulacrum of a face that is incongruous with everything he has been taught and that difference betrays them. But how does Moe recognize them with his eyes put out? I wouldn't doubt that he knew Skaeos was a skin-spy from espionage and intellect, but can he recognize a new one? Can he perceive the absence of a soul much the way the Few perceive the bruising of the Onta? 
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 22, 2015, 09:08:32 pm
I just read this during Kellhus and Moe's exchange. Kellhus tells Moe that Moe found the skin-spy's through discrepancies in the voice. Now, Moe says nothing back so I'm assuming Kellhus guessed right. Who knows though?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: locke on December 23, 2015, 12:04:18 am
Quick question, it may have been addressed somewhere else but if it has I can't recall it. How does Moe recognize skin-spies? I might be mistaken but I thought the explanation for Kellhus recognizing them is more or less that he physically sees them, that they form a simulacrum of a face that is incongruous with everything he has been taught and that difference betrays them. But how does Moe recognize them with his eyes put out? I wouldn't doubt that he knew Skaeos was a skin-spy from espionage and intellect, but can he recognize a new one? Can he perceive the absence of a soul much the way the Few perceive the bruising of the Onta?
Quick answer is that moe didn't blind himself until the encounter with kellhus
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 23, 2015, 12:41:24 am
Quick question, it may have been addressed somewhere else but if it has I can't recall it. How does Moe recognize skin-spies? I might be mistaken but I thought the explanation for Kellhus recognizing them is more or less that he physically sees them, that they form a simulacrum of a face that is incongruous with everything he has been taught and that difference betrays them. But how does Moe recognize them with his eyes put out? I wouldn't doubt that he knew Skaeos was a skin-spy from espionage and intellect, but can he recognize a new one? Can he perceive the absence of a soul much the way the Few perceive the bruising of the Onta?
Quick answer is that moe didn't blind himself until the encounter with kellhus

Locke, I agree. He didn't blind his self til he had the passion required to wield the Meta-Psûkhe.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: themerchant on December 23, 2015, 03:26:57 pm
is that why his eye sockets still leave a little blood when he wipes his face in TTT?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 23, 2015, 03:30:38 pm
But would the Cishaurim allow him to advance in rank without having been blinded?

He seems to have accessed the Psuhke well before meeting Kellhus also, in sending the dreams, and in his meeting with Xerius.  Not to mention his seeming involvement in the assassination-by-teleportation.  Could he have done with while sighted?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 23, 2015, 03:59:48 pm
Quote
The emissary drew back his cowl, pulling it wide over his shoulders... His bald scalp was pale, shockingly so, and his face was dominated by the black sockets beneath his brow. Eyeless faces always unnerved Xerius
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on December 23, 2015, 04:24:07 pm
That emissary could have been someone else. I think Locke’s theory is that Moënghus learned the Psûkhe without being blinded as a parallel to Kellhus learning the Gnosis without grasping Seswatha’s heart.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Camlost on December 23, 2015, 07:23:27 pm
I suppose that's plausible. It seems like a lot of work, but I wouldn't put anything past a Dunyain
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: H on December 23, 2015, 07:42:57 pm
That emissary could have been someone else. I think Locke’s theory is that Moënghus learned the Psûkhe without being blinded as a parallel to Kellhus learning the Gnosis without grasping Seswatha’s heart.

Well, I would tend to disagree with this as I don't believe that learning the Gnosis is dependent on Grasping the Heart, where-as I do believe that the Psuhke is dependent upon the blinding.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on December 23, 2015, 09:44:17 pm
It's a huuuuuge stretch imo. No doubt. I see two ways for it to be possible. He either manipulated another into being his Mallahat or as a Dunyain he could do the minor spells without being blinded. I will say when I read that scene, to me, I have the feeling Moe blinded his self right then. To me, everything points to Moe being totally in control and every turn in Kyudea being conditioned.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Aural on December 23, 2015, 09:54:04 pm
Well, I would tend to disagree with this as I don't believe that learning the Gnosis is dependent on Grasping the Heart, where-as I do believe that the Psuhke is dependent upon the blinding.

Maybe not learning the Gnosis in general, but having a Mandate schoolman teach it to you is dependent on grasping the heart as far as I can tell. On the other hand, we don’t know that a Dûnyain can’t learn the Psûkhe without getting blinded--or anyone for that matter.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Titan on July 01, 2016, 01:33:05 am
It's a huuuuuge stretch imo. No doubt. I see two ways for it to be possible. He either manipulated another into being his Mallahat or as a Dunyain he could do the minor spells without being blinded. I will say when I read that scene, to me, I have the feeling Moe blinded his self right then. To me, everything points to Moe being totally in control and every turn in Kyudea being conditioned.

Upon re-read, it seems pretty obvious to me that Mallahat is Moënghus (why else describe him as pale and with Scylvendi scars?), and that he is at this point already a blind Cishaurim.

And even though he has lost his vision, the snakes allow the Cishaurim to see mostly normally. Or?
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on July 01, 2016, 02:53:30 am
It's a huuuuuge stretch imo. No doubt. I see two ways for it to be possible. He either manipulated another into being his Mallahat or as a Dunyain he could do the minor spells without being blinded. I will say when I read that scene, to me, I have the feeling Moe blinded his self right then. To me, everything points to Moe being totally in control and every turn in Kyudea being conditioned.

Upon re-read, it seems pretty obvious to me that Mallahat is Moënghus (why else describe him as pale and with Scylvendi scars?), and that he is at this point already a blind Cishaurim.

And even though he has lost his vision, the snakes allow the Cishaurim to see mostly normally. Or?

Potential TTT and TAE spoilers.
(click to show/hide)

[EDIT] Wilshire - Spoiler tags
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Titan on July 02, 2016, 04:39:34 am
It's a huuuuuge stretch imo. No doubt. I see two ways for it to be possible. He either manipulated another into being his Mallahat or as a Dunyain he could do the minor spells without being blinded. I will say when I read that scene, to me, I have the feeling Moe blinded his self right then. To me, everything points to Moe being totally in control and every turn in Kyudea being conditioned.

Upon re-read, it seems pretty obvious to me that Mallahat is Moënghus (why else describe him as pale and with Scylvendi scars?), and that he is at this point already a blind Cishaurim.

And even though he has lost his vision, the snakes allow the Cishaurim to see mostly normally. Or?

Potential TTT and TAE spoilers.
(click to show/hide)

[EDIT] Wilshire - Spoiler tags

Potential TTT and TAE spoilers.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: MSJ on July 02, 2016, 03:17:02 pm
Wilshire- there are those type of spoilers all throughout the Slog..... We agreed to them when we started it, because it was a re-read.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Madness on July 02, 2016, 03:30:15 pm
Wilshire- there are those type of spoilers all throughout the Slog..... We agreed to them when we started it, because it was a re-read.

True say.

Lol - though, it strikes me now that the [Spoilers] in the title should have been at the beginning of thread titles for those looking at the most recent posts...

When there's more time :(.
Title: Re: The Slog TDTCB - Part Two: The Emperor [Spoilers]
Post by: Wilshire on July 06, 2016, 05:53:31 pm
Wilshire- there are those type of spoilers all throughout the Slog..... We agreed to them when we started it, because it was a re-read.
Ah, I read "The Almanac" and didn't realize it was a slog thread. my bad :)