Favorite Scenes

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Gaston de Foix

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« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2014, 01:00:54 pm »
Thanks for the welcome Madness. I don't know how much I have to contribute tbh, everything i've thought about this series has been teased out at length somewhere on this forum!  But it's great to be hear, and read through all the posts from people who had the same thought I did and expressed it so well....


Wilshire

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« Reply #76 on: February 07, 2014, 01:53:17 pm »
We seek new minds to bring up past discussions. Mulling over details and theories with the same people tends to always lead to the same conclusions. I often feel like I'm in too deep to tease out anything new. Besides, participating is half the fun.
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Madness

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« Reply #77 on: February 07, 2014, 04:55:42 pm »
Thanks for the welcome Madness. I don't know how much I have to contribute tbh, everything i've thought about this series has been teased out at length somewhere on this forum!  But it's great to be hear, and read through all the posts from people who had the same thought I did and expressed it so well....

I also refuse to believe you have no original thoughts ;). Plus the search function works here and your commentary won't be lost momentarily in the deluge of the One Thread Famine's at Westeros.

Please resurrect threads with abandon.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2014, 10:40:35 pm »
I wouldn't call it my favorite scene, but the part where Iyokus (that's not far from iyisku, btw) first summons a demon.  I had it in my head that the ishual-dunyain view that the world was mundane was basically correct.  Yes magic existed, but I thought that the existence of gods and demons was all a lie up until that point.  Turned my view of the work on its head.  I didn't not know what to make of it at first, did not really like it.  I thought the dunyain had found the magic key to manipulate the world in treating it as governed by law and now...now who the fuck knows.  The Outside is a huge trump card for everything.  Every plot by everyone can be superseded by the great darkness that comes before :)

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« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2014, 01:23:53 pm »
I wouldn't call it my favorite scene, but the part where Iyokus (that's not far from iyisku, btw) first summons a demon.  I had it in my head that the ishual-dunyain view that the world was mundane was basically correct.  Yes magic existed, but I thought that the existence of gods and demons was all a lie up until that point.  Turned my view of the work on its head.  I didn't not know what to make of it at first, did not really like it.  I thought the dunyain had found the magic key to manipulate the world in treating it as governed by law and now...now who the fuck knows.  The Outside is a huge trump card for everything.  Every plot by everyone can be superseded by the great darkness that comes before :)

Big +1 the bold. I stopped moving and the world turned around me for a moment when I read Iyokus looking into the Outside.
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Kosoter

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« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2014, 03:51:40 pm »
I think my favourite scene was when Akka comes back from torture and ciphrangs to the horrifying reality of the Holy War. When he finally creeps into Esmenet's room after all they've been through together and he stammers "where will it be next time?". For all the suffering and naked cruelty in these books, I think that simple scene really cut me deeper than any of the others on a personal level. Akka never knew peace in his dreams or will with his death and he endured it all because she was his morning...and she does him like that? I think I genuinely hated Esmi for a bit after that.

Wilshire

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« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2014, 04:45:19 pm »
Akka's life was/is so full of heartbreak. I think its what leads me to always be rooting for him. Fate is not kind.
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« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2014, 03:58:02 am »
I think my favourite scene was when Akka comes back from torture and ciphrangs to the horrifying reality of the Holy War. When he finally creeps into Esmenet's room after all they've been through together and he stammers "where will it be next time?". For all the suffering and naked cruelty in these books, I think that simple scene really cut me deeper than any of the others on a personal level. Akka never knew peace in his dreams or will with his death and he endured it all because she was his morning...and she does him like that? I think I genuinely hated Esmi for a bit after that.

I have legitimately cried reading that scene a number of times.

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Kosoter.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #83 on: May 02, 2014, 08:37:24 am »
I think I genuinely hated Esmi for a bit after that.
That was a painful scene, but I hated Kellhus for it, not Esmi. Esmenet had no chance against Kellhus.

EkyannusIII

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« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2014, 11:48:09 pm »
I might have hated Esmi less if she wasn't perfectly happy being a cum dumpster apart from Kellhus' seductions. Let's not forget that she becomes "Sarcellus" concubine right after leaving Shimeh on pilgrimage while looking for Akka, that she does that guy in the alleyway for kicks, and that she has spent twenty years with Kellhus despite having him explained to her by Akka and realizing that she is a "prize mare" (her own words) and despite admitting that she still does love Akka.  Clearly, love and sex do not mix for this woman. Why should we pity her? It's the fate she wanted.

Incidentally, if one wants to accuse Bakker of sexism, the mere fact that all three women in the first trilogy are whores (which A Cracked Moon seemed so obsessed with) pales before the characterization of Esmenet; she is literally the distillation of every sexist, misogynistic stereotype of women - a pretty, conniving slut who climbs the social ladder on her back with knees spread open, who makes calculating decisions in terms of her self interest and the power of her vagina without concern for whom it hurts, who is happy to play the role of the woman in danger needing rescue when there is a man (Akka) who can be swayed by it but who drops him after he loses his usefulness for the first hung alpha stud (Kellhus) who comes along, and who issues commands like she was born to rule and somehow conquered all of this herself
WLW spoilers:
 
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despite the fact that she has gained it all by being the sex toy of men who's achievements she could never emulate in open competition where trading sex for power was not an option. She's the worst character in the books, I hate her,
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and I will be happy when she dies.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 01:17:14 pm by Wilshire »
What is reason, but the blindness of the soul?

R. SCOTT RAP3ZT TERRIBLEZ LOLZ.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

the whole thing is orchestrated by Kellhus who is wearing a Bashrag as if it were a suit

Wilshire

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« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2014, 12:59:55 am »
lmao wow. You really do hate her
She's the worst character in the books, I hate her

Seems like an understatement. I like the vehemence though.

btw TTT subforum. Watch spoilers.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2014, 03:33:27 am »
Wow, Eky. Not to say that Esme isn't annoying, but...
I've known people like Esme who have shared similar experiences with me. She rings true to me as a person, not as just a simple archetype.
For kicks?  I think she is suffering pretty badly in that scene and it was a desperate attempt at empowerment.  And that is when people do stupid, shitty, self-harming things.
I don't see why we should view Akka as deserving her as some kind of due for his suffering... also, she chooses Kellhus after she knows the truth about him, so...

That said, I respect your opinion and I won't argue much further.

I think the male characters conform to basically male 'heroic' archetypes and exhibit just as many major faults as the females.
Maybe its easier to empathize with them and rationalize their actions, perhaps because Bakker is male and explains them better.
Maybe casting the females as archetypes and then trying show to their humanity beyond that was a mistake or a failure.  I'm not sure.

I've believe most people are capable of the shit Bakker's characters pull, and find myself able to sympathize with them.  Don't think I would choose any of them for friendship status though.
Except maybe Proyas or Mimara, they seem alright.

Speaking of character hate though, Akka is probably my least favourite.
He is a true neckbeard, arrogant and selfish - almost never admits his mistakes or takes responsibility and is usually wrong.
He betrays or abandons all of his friends and affiliates and the number of people's deaths that he is responsible for is staggering. 
He doesn't even try to help out Inrau, betrays his school anyway, he just gets drunk and watches Xin die, doesn't warn Proyas about Kellhus.
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The one time I thought he did anything right was deciding to give up his shitty life for Esme, and that got fucked up for him.  Felt bad for him then.

Sorry for the offtopicness.
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Alia

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« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2014, 11:41:22 am »
Well, I'm a woman and I don't hate Esmenet, I mostly just feel sorry for her. Born as she was, she never really had a chance in her life, whatever she did, she would be fucked (pun intended). Since her mother wouldn't teach her reading stars, she could either sell her body or sell herself into slavery (which would be even worse).
So she became a whore. And here appears a problem. I guess a lot of men expect a typical whore to be more like Mimara - to hate her life, men who abuse her and be broken by what has happened to her. Esmi is different. She tries to find pleasure in what she does - and that's her way of getting even with the men. And while it's easy to feel sorry for poor abused Mimara, it's much harder to feel sorry for her mother.

As for why she stayed with Kellhus, even though Akka told her everything. Yes, you can say that she did it for power and wealth. But maybe, as Akka himself seems to believe, she did it, because Kellhus promised her that he will find her daughter.
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Srancy

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« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2014, 10:51:01 pm »
Akka deserved everything that he got. Mandate Schoolmen annoy me to no end.

Wilshire

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« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2014, 01:20:18 pm »
It is always interesting to me the varied opinions people have about characters in these books. Makes me wonder what life experiences lead people to sympathise with some and hate others.

But this is getting off topic. Someone should make a "which character do you loathe the most" topic if you'd like to continue.
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