[What Came Before]

Help me flesh out this theory:

Mimara's Baby will be Sejeyus (or maybe just a badass)

So I've been rereading the entire series, and lo-and-behold there's a lot of awesome things I had never picked up on. Key among them are the implications of Mimara and her baby.

1. The baby/fetus has spent a huge amount of its development time nourishing off of Qirri. AKA, nourishing off of the ashes of Cu'jara-Cinmoi, the great Nonman King who warred against the Inchoroi and originally wielded the heron spear.

If you remember, Qirri has some pretty spectacular effects on GROWN men and women, grown men and women who should've been ground to dust by the end of the White Luck Warrior, let alone a developing pre-baby. Qirri users are smarter/wittier (Mimara says this herself); they can see in the dark, they are crazy strong, and they have more endurance. Can you imagine a Qirri user without the dependency and without the trials that they had been through? It sounds like the makings of a spectacular baby and an even more spectacular character for the next set of Bakker books.

3. (Yes, I skipped 2 since 1 is HUGE - so is this one) The judging eye has historically appeared only during the time of a woman's pregnancy. Why? Well, I'm only one quarter philosopher, but I guess that would be because a mother is carrying a completely innocent soul (innocent until born, that is).

For Mimara to have the judging eye for most, if not all, of her life, I would speculate that she's giving birth to THE innocent soul. Or, in other words, someone with a soul that stays pure even after birth.

This person would MAINLY see in the Judging Eye. Or, at least, by command.

A child like that would probably be the next Nejesus - I mean Sejenus.

But instead of being Ne (NOT), let's delete the n & e and the baby would be plain old S_je_us. Or, in other words, less of a fake than even NotJesus was, I mean Sejenus. I truly believe the drop that Sejenus is Ne-Jesus, not quite Jesus, was a pointer towards the coming of this character by Bakker even as early as the first book.

Of course, Bakker could be pointing to Kellhus, but I'm guessing Kellhus is a straight up incarnation of Krishna.

Krishna (7)
Kellhus (7)

Although, of course, Jesus himself could've been an incarnation of Krishna. But who's to say there isn't more than one type of incarnation? Who's to say Kellhus won't die before we know if he's actually an incarnation of God? Who's to say that a TRUE incarnation wouldn't have be one from the beginning, not just one after a while (like Kellhus was)? Who's to say that the difference matters? Maybe this world, like ours, get's both? But I digress.

Anyway, that would explain why Mimara has had the judging eye for so long.

I mean, don't we all already know this from history class, if not Bible school? Of course Mother Mary, I mean Ma Mari, I mean Mimara, is the mother of Jesus. I mean YesJesus, Sejeyus, or whatever. And, of course Mimara would not only get this "gift," but have it all her life.

Thus:

Mimara's Baby will be Sejeyus

Mother Mary's Baby will be True Jesus

4. I've been over it again and again today looking for holes (my own Hundredfold Thought) and so just assume your original dismissals have already plagued me.

Also, imagine a completely pure soul with the judging eye (thus, an incarnation of God as a human), but with the added dexterity/power of Cu'jara-Cinmoi.

AWESOME.

5. Plus, a baby born through such a trial as the Slog of Slogs would have to be a bad ass.

PS. It would be great if Yes-Jesus turned out to be a woman.

In fact, (not that Bakker will name her this, though he might) Sejeyus sounds like more of a girl's name anyway. Like the female version of Sejenus. Maybe Bakker is saying that the only true Jesus, the true Savior of the World, would have to be a woman? Well... I might agree.

Thus, Bakker could truly show why his series is one of the greatest odes to the historic strife of women in modern literature.

So maybe, its not that Sejenus was a fake, just a male Jesus.

Thus, Mimara's baby will be female Jesus

Oh, wait...

Sejenus (7)
Sejeyus (7)

Godhead (7)

Damn.

And for fun: [Mimara (6) + Achamian (] / 2 = 7

Or maybe twins? (14)

Actually... just one more:

6. There's a Consult or Inchoroi prophecy foretelling Mimara's baby. This is revealed in The White Luck Warrior after Soma tells the humanheadbirdthing that Mimara is pregnant. Of course, this may not mean anything untoward, but it could mean that Mimara's baby is just bad ass and evil (the Antichrist).

Why I discount this: I believe that Kellhus has already mapped out these scenarios. Why? Well:

1. He allowed Achamian to be a hermit and knew where he was and exactly what he was doing.

2. He allowed Mimara to go to Achamian. This is revealed when Esmenet knows that Mimara is with Achamian.

3. He commanded Kosoter and the Eastern division of Zudunyaini disbanded and commanded them (through the Holies) that they hunt skinnies, but only in a certain area (all of this was revealed by Sarl in WLW). Kellhus obviously knew Kosoter well (called him "Ironsoul" + he knows everyone he sees well) and needed Achamian and Mimara to make it to Ishual (and for Mimara to get pregnant).

4. He knows both Achamian and Mimara, and he's probably reached the trillionfold thought by now, but even if he hasn't he knows what'll happen between them.

5. He knew Cleric (with his Qirri) was with Kosoter. How could he not when he obviously had a specific plan for Kosoter and the Skin Eaters? He probably showed up like a beggar (like he does when he blew the door on Sorweel's city) just to check up on Kosoter from time to time (like he did with Achamian).

6. He computes the future from his intellect. He gets visions of the future from God.

7. Kellhus has already had all the same dreams as Achamian, one way or another. How could he not when Kellhus, not Achamian, was actually the first Wizard of the age? Not only a wizard, but a Gnostic Wizard. Not only a Gnostic Wizard, but KELLHUS the Gnostic Wizard.

Of course, Kellhus as a Wizard means he knows all the ins an outs of how Seswatha set up the dreams, etc. I mean, there are "rumors" in the book that he might have even been to the Outside (with those demon heads of his). As far as I know, he's actually the one who directs the new dreams to Achamian that gets him to Ishual (though I doubt it).

8. In the end, if Kellhus has reached Godhead, even naturally occurring phenomena within the story is one with his ultimate intellect (even if he doesn't see it directly), since the TRUE white-luck of the TRUE/full/solitary God is always nature, always exactly what happens (yes, that includes human phenomena). In fact, this is true even if Kellhus HASN'T reached Godhead.

Thus, True White-Luck Warriors can only be representations of the ultimate, whole Godhead: Kellhus... and this baby.

However, with the judging eye, Sejeyus will probably not abide sorcery (maybe), evil people, inequality, and other faiths - many of the things Kellhus has HAD to abide to save the world. Whether Sejeyus changes these things through violence (unlike our historical Jesus) remains to be seen.

Now that I think of it, Kellhus MAY have given up his soul (not just his life) through the use of sorcery just to save the planet from hell.

Sound familiar?

…Damn.

[What Came Before]

Awesome crackpot ...
Nerdanel?

I don't know that quiri will impart awesome powers to Mim's baby - drug use when pregnant is not typically a good idea, magical drugs might make an exception I guess.

Akka calls the JE a curse and reveals that the babies of mother with it (the JE) are stillborn.  (which is a good way to maintain innocence haha)
I guess Mim could be the exception here too, if there's another time skip before the final trilogy it could be likely.  Baby Leto II mebe?

Kellhus hasn't done the grasping ritual as far as we know, so no Seswatha dreams.  Not to say there aren't other ways for him to explore Seswatha's dreams.

I ain't gunna touch the letter counting bits though

[What Came Before]

Awesome point about the stillbirths.

Maybe the mother only has the judging eye if the babys life is 100% pure. Or, in other words, if the offspring dies innocent. Usually that can only happen if the baby is stillborn bc with birth comes sin. But the Qirri powers or effect will allow the baby to survive through birth still innocent.

Which would also explain why Ma Mary has had the effects of the judging eye all her life: the mother is affected by the judging eye for as long as the baby will live. If the baby only survives the pregnancy, the mother only has it then. If the kid survives 30, 40, 70, oo? (meaning an ejesus). Well, the mother will have it for the same amount of time (up til the end of her life, or maybe up until the birth).

[What Came Before]

Given the prophecy you mentioned and everything, I'll be surpised if Mimara or her baby doesn't have some important fate.
Also, if the no-god rises in time then all babies are still born, mebe Mim's will be the exception - a double negation returns a positive?

[What Came Before]

Double negative, I like that. Though most of the rest of this was too complete, or too confusing, for me to comment on. Fun read though, this was certainly interesting and new.

[What Came Before]

Lol, and yes, it would take a Nerdanel idea to get me to make an account.

If something (or everything) is confusing, sorry. I wasn't exactly sure how to construct the post since it took all those little details together to convince me of the idea (including Bakkers easter eggs).

Most likely the baby won't be named Sejeyus of course, but I'll flip out if the name has 7 letters

[What Came Before]

Are you actually Nerdanel...? I must know now.

[What Came Before]

Excuse me, who is Nerdanel? (I obviously do not mean my wife in the Silmarillion)
I thought about a doublenicker, but found no Nerdanel among the members.
And you use it as a verb, to nerdanel something, and as an adjective, a nerdanel idea...
Sorry for the off topic.

[What Came Before]

Excuse me, who is Nerdanel? (I obviously do not mean my wife in the Silmarillion)
I thought about a doublenicker, but found no Nerdanel among the members.
And you use it as a verb, to nerdanel something, and as an adjective, a nerdanel idea...
Sorry for the off topic.

Nerdanel was a poster on Martin's board (and also on old Bakker's board, IIRC) famous for eccentric theories, especially, but not exclusively, about Second Apocalypse books.

[What Came Before]

In particular, Nerdanal's favorite, and most elaborate theory is that Moenghus was still alive and was not physically present in the encounter with Kellhus, Kellhus killed a surrogate onto whom Moenghus was projecting an image of himself (as we saw Moenghus project Skeaos in TDTCB).  The conclusion of this theory is that Kellhus is nothing more than a clueless chess piece on Moenghus' world-board; Kellhus believes he has agency and controls the world and his beliefs in his gifts blind him to the manipulations that Moenghus applies to Kellhus oh-so-easily.

Her next most elaborate theory was that Cleric was Ninjanjin or the son of Ninjanjin.  This was an extremely complex piece that I cannot do justice to (and it seems somewhat pointless since Cleric's identity has now been revealed).

[What Came Before]

Doesn't do justice to the piece to ask only this, but will the baby be human?


And I thought of the double negative awhile back  :twisted:  *twirls doctor who scarf over shoulder, strides away...*

[What Came Before]

Depends what you consider human. Are the dunyain human? Half human still counts as human? Was Jesus human?

[What Came Before]

Thank you Bastard an Locke.

What are the odds of me running into a Nerdanel in a Bakker forum the second day since my registration? (I am Fëanor in Tolkien and Martin (spanish) forums since 2002, an didn't know of this when I registered here).

About the Moenghus not been there... not likely. In the scene with Moenghus (we didn´t know that in the first reading) proyecting Skauras's face, it was clearly shown a superposition of two faces, one (the distant) beeing translucent, and the voice sounded kind of with delay and reverb... So, when did Moe find the time and resources to HD his broadcastings? And Kell is not just one average observer... he would tell.

[What Came Before]

About the Moenghus not been there... not likely. In the scene with Moenghus (we didn´t know that in the first reading) proyecting Skauras's face, it was clearly shown a superposition of two faces, one (the distant) beeing translucent, and the voice sounded kind of with delay and reverb... So, when did Moe find the time and resources to HD his broadcastings? And Kell is not just one average observer... he would tell.

I agree completely. But im not on the "super Moe" boat so we shall wait for them to arrive to have a proper discussion

[What Came Before]

Can't help myself, don't want to support the hypothesis! BUT what if you had several people transmitting the image? Enough overlap and semi transparency becomes solid.