[mrganondorf]

Musing: the 'gift' of the few--could mean it's especially attached to the Giver Deity, Yatwer?

[Wilshire]

If the Gift was somehow a divine present from one of the Hundred, why does it scar the Onta so?

[SkiesOfAzel]

If the Gift was somehow a divine present from one of the Hundred, why does it scar the Onta so?

While i don't subscribe to the idea that it's Yatwer's gift, the Gods and the God are NOT the same thing at all.

+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.

Why are Ciphrang necessarily evil? They just act according to their interests, i don't see them having a morality one way or another.

[mrganondorf]

Some random and incompatible thoughts about Yatwer:

- She is simple a tool for the Consult?  Shae's own version of the gnosis+daimos made her a slave/ally ages ago?

- 2 Yatwers: There is The Yatwer who is real and active in the 3seas, messing around with Psatma and WLW; then there is another false Yatwer - a perception created by the Consult (or my own favorite: crowds of dunyain/cishaurim just off stage) to manipulate Sorweel/Zeumi prince/others.

- If Kellhus hopes to ultimately mold the Zeumi prince into a believer-king to take the circumfix to Zeum, then it's pretty neat that Kellhus' future agent and Yatwer's agent are best buds.

[Madness]

+1. I'm beginning to think many have decided that the Kiunnat Gods are Ciphrang (that is, inherently evil)... it's interesting to watch.

Why are Ciphrang necessarily evil? They just act according to their interests, i don't see them having a morality one way or another.

Mostly because angelic Ciphrang were mentioned in an interview.

However, you could be right... but it could also be that they are the aggregate of negative human desires? Or simply anthropomorphisms of evil?

Some random and incompatible thoughts about Yatwer:

- She is simple a tool for the Consult?  Shae's own version of the gnosis+daimos made her a slave/ally ages ago?

...

- If Kellhus hopes to ultimately mold the Zeumi prince into a believer-king to take the circumfix to Zeum, then it's pretty neat that Kellhus' future agent and Yatwer's agent are best buds.

Probably the instances that Sorweel has interacted with are real. And what happens in the Catacombs is pretty convincing of Psatma's direct line. Neither seem like they could be a product of the Consult.

Sorweel is convinced, despite Kellhus' or Yatwer's manipulations. The war is real, whether Kellhus' intentions to destroy the Consult are.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Mostly because angelic Ciphrang were mentioned in an interview.

I'd forgotten that piece of info. What i meant by my comment is that they seem more amoral than evil to me. But if they hunger for souls, they are by definition Ciphrang. The Nonman King's shade remarks that although it dreams it is a God, it hungers and Gods shouldn't hunger.

[Madness]

It's the way that they have to hunger, I guess? Like Mimara describes seeing the consequences of Damnation as torment, assuming we can trust her visions. Torment seems evil to our humanness?

Regardless, I got the amoral comment... I went back and read the context of my comment and I'm not sure what motivated that brackets... usually, I have something pretty specific in mind.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I went back and read the context of my comment and I'm not sure what motivated that brackets... usually, I have something pretty specific in mind.

It's the darkness that comes before all of us

[Madness]

May we all know this in some way - though, in this case, I am the darkness that came after the darkness that came before.

[mrganondorf]

TUC must contain an angelic ciphrang!

[SkiesOfAzel]

Lol it's Scott we are talking about, the difference between angelic ciphrang and regular ones might simply be the use of lube

[mrganondorf]

"touched by an angel"

[Wilshire]

Lol it's Scott we are talking about, the difference between angelic ciphrang and regular ones might simply be the use of lube

I've looked at the quote several times and I'm not convinced that it even suggests there even are Angelic Ciphrang.

I like your amoral argument. As it goes, damnation is subjective. The Ciphrang might just be hungry, and would probably not appreciate being called evil, or even amoral.

[mrganondorf]

Yatwer can hide a face from the Dunyains and a chorae too.  What else could she hide?  Could she hide a sorcerer's mark?  Perhaps this is an added bit to the WLW's notched blade--it does not appear notched to Kellhus' eyes.  Of course, maybe meta-gnostic-daimos allows him to see past all that. 

[Madness]

You just suggested elsewhere that the pouch is a sorcerous object hiding the Chorae, MG...