Dunyain and Nonmen

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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:15 pm »
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: lockesnow

Kellhus has figured this all out.  He never knew about Ses' map, and just figured that the best way to help Akka and Mim find Ishual was to give them the most powerful Quya as their guide, particularly as he'd helped to found it.

If he has access to Seswatha through Akka, he has access to Seswatha through the Mandate, which is part of his empire. If he wanted to, he could learn everything he wanted about Seswatha, and I assume he has (if I’m reading this access properly).

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« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:22 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
The hybridization event referenced was the only one of its kind recorded. It occurred with the pairing of a male human and a female cunuroi. The resulting child was a daughter, named Cimoira (Which sounds superficially like Mimara but it's probably nothing meaningful).

Given real world cross-species fertilizations, it's possible that that particular gender pairing (human male/cunuroi female) is the only way to get viable offspring. Ligers (Lion/tiger) require a specific gender combination to work, for example; though I can't remember the specifics.

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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:29 pm »
Quote from: Transcendiot
From the prologue and some of Bakker's interviews, personally I would doubt any direct nonman connection. The initiation of the dunyain seems to be from war survivors tired of the ways of the world and wanting to shut out all external influences, including powerful beings, magic, lies, etc.

And Bakker said in an interview that there is no dunyain hierarchy (I'll add - accept for maybe the obvious adult/teacher and child/student relationship that we've seen in flashbacks).

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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:38 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Bakker is a lying liar who lies, clearly, Transcendiot ;). Pragma, a title, denotes a sort of hierarchy - perhaps, specifically the one you highlighted.

While I'm interested in the idea of Nonmen founding the Dunyain, I offered my evidence in suggestion that the Dunyain/Nonmen interaction happened after the Apocalypse. That in the millenia since, the Dunyain have conditioned Ishterebinth - before the Three Seas.

Also, The Sharmat & Borric, you, sirs, are wrong. Though everyone does seem to forget Sirwitta - who, I've come to believe after rereading the Cuno-Inchoroi, was the first to discover the Inverse Fire.

Nonmen Tutelage - The great period of Norsirai-Cunuroi trade, education, and strategic alliances, beginning in 555 and ending with the Expulsion in 825 (following the famed Rape of Omindalea).

My italics on that one.

Though, Borric, you are right in saying that the quoted entry never made it into the Glossary.

Also, from Kuniuri: (he [Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I] lived to the age of 178, the reputed result of the Nonman blood in his veins).

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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:48 pm »
Quote from: Callan S.
Not off topic at all; 'Dunyain and the Nonmen' sounds like a great band name...

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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2013, 07:51:56 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Wait is Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I an entry published somewhere? Or is that another one of those secrets that were taken out? I feel like I have read that (Maybe on the wikia that has a few smatterings of information, mainly a compiled timeline). I wonder how long it would take the effects of nonman blood to wear off through the generations, and for that matter, what other effects aside from a long life? 178 is pretty old, maybe 3x the lifetime of a normal man would be my guess. 60 sounds like a reasonable lifespan.

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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:05 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
I can't even remember if it's specifically said what the Rape of Omindalea was. I didn't take it as a literal rape. Even if it was, you'd think offspring resulting from it would be worth a specific mention.

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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:13 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, I quoted the canon available, excepting this:

Nanor-Ukkerja I (1378-1556) - "Hammer of Heaven" (Kuniuric from Umeritic nanar hukisha) The first Anasurimbor High King, whose defeat of the Scintya in 1408 would lead to the founding of Kuniuri and begin what most scholars regard as the longest-reigning dynasty in recorded history. (p591, TTT Glossary)

You know, TTT is a really interesting book to have around lol. Its probably two bucks as a used book store. Or Bakker gets paid at full price book stores ;).

The Sharmat, the only piece of this which is missing is the entry that Borric quoted on page 2 of this thread - that as far as I'm concerned based on the old Three-Seas, I'd suggest, is at least semi-canon. At least on par with interview answers?

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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:20 pm »
Quote from: The Sharmat
Could still just be myth and rumors. The appendices aren't objective.

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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:28 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: The Sharmat
Could still just be myth and rumors. The appendices aren't objective.

Yeah this topic has been discussed several times throughout these forums.

And to be honest I got TTT at a used book store for $2 the year it came out. For some reason they had like 10 copies of it. They have never had another copy of TTT that I've seen since then, though a the first 2 books of the series keep showing up from time to time and then disappearing. Makes me happy to seem them come and go.

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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:36 pm »
Quote from: Madness
A Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... This is my newest obsession :twisted: .

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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:43 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
A Dunyain rules in Ishterebinth... This is my newest obsession :twisted: .
Please, continue

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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:50 pm »
Quote from: Madness
Well, there are the two quotes I mentioned in the starting of this thread.

However, I was randomly reading Bakker the other night, looking for theories in imbibe, and I read this, which includes the latter quote:

"I am Incariol ... Cleric! ... You think me the cripple! ... You think Cleric the ruin of someone whole! But you are wong, Seswatha! I am the Truth ... We are Many! ... We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One ... Only when memory is stripped away! ... Only then is Being revealed as pure Becoming! Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul! ... Only then does the Darkness sing untrammeled! Only then!

'And yet you seek memories!'

To be! Being is not a choice!

'But you claim Being is deception!'

Yes! ... That is Becoming" (WLW, p890).

I was actually underwhelmed by this scene the first time I'd read it. As I've reread and reread TSA since WLW's release, I've grown to actually achieve some level of understanding but initially I simply ascribed this passage to a description of Erraticism - foolishness, on my part.

I'm slowly realizing it isn't.

The quote above reflects the beginning of the fight between Achamian and Nil'giccas... or is it Cleric?

If memory binds as Bakker, and pretty much all cognitive psychology agree, then our "selves" have no narrative hold on individuality without it. So in conditions of anterograde amnesia - inability to make new memories - it's likely that some kind of "most recently saved," or last longstanding change in cortical organization, self exists in a temporal isolation far worse than our own. That is, every moment, person, thing, would be perpetually new, though you would engage these circumstances with many of the idiosyncrasies of some "you pre-amnesia" - as far as I, someone not afflicted, can imagine based on many first and second hand descriptions. Wonder or horror. But the brain has no other baseline to construct from.

Now Bakker twists this slightly with Erraticism, suggesting reflections of some of the stranger things described in research. Its evident that learning is still possible, despite anterograde amnesias - theorized and documented as reflecting different neural structures for memory. In the case of Nonmen, episodic memory seems to rely on visceral emotional experiences, trumping the damage and forming new memories or, at least, giving the Nonmen excess to past memories. Otherwise, Nonmen would truly be just raging Alzheimer patients - throwing sorcery instead of things.

The problem is that Cleric is describing a unity of self, some kind of coherent narrative, which is providing him with an understanding of his present... something that would seem impossible for traditional Erratics who rely entirely on their "elju," or book.

Is this an idea the Nonmen have developed in the millennia of trying to maintain conscious sanity?

It actually gives me shivers to think about this as it changes the game considerably. Cleric would be something, someone, entirely new, a novel identity. And this reads very much like someone trying to justify his existence over Nil'giccas'.

How might that have transpired? The Nonmen aren't about becoming a whole another mental race, they are dead set on vengeance, on reclaiming their past.

But if a Race of Thought-Dancers found the Nonmen, they could help the Nonmen develop strategies in abstraction, in order to "combat their failing memories". And they could use these new entities, these super-powerful creatures, unchained from any moral, philosophic, or historical constraints of the Nonmen, however they wish...

"Only then does the Darkness sing untrammeled! Only then!"

If the Dunyain truly ruled in Ishterebinth in this fashion, one or a number, and created new "selves" from the fractured psyches of the Nonmen, then they effectively have their own Dunyain/Skin-Spy/Quya, who could deal with the Great Ordeal and the Consult as if they still were Nonmen... WhAAaOooOOOoooO - I really wish there was a crazy rolling smiley face.

And now I shall bow out. I hope you all enjoy my Nerdanelling for the day. Put that in yer pipe and smoke it!

Back to my own writings 8-).

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« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2013, 07:52:58 pm »
Quote from: Wilshire
An interesting idea that I rather like. But (there is always a but):

Dunyain ruling Nonmen, presumably in Ishterebinth, would cause a few problems.

I wish we knew more about the Dunyain, but from what we 'know' (have been led to believe at least) is that the Dunyain are not a political entity at all. They do not want, nor need, outside influence. Thus the isolation of Ishual.They have no other purpose other than attaining The Absolute.
Sorcery? All evidence destroyed. Apparently not deemed necessary to achieve their goal.
War? Who needs war when your only desire is to be isolated from every other form of humanity.
Religion/History? Nothing but forms of control. Not useful for the Dunayin.
Politics? No need for politics when everything is known by everyone.

They desire to be hidden, so they wouldn't often be sending scouts around the area. If they found some kind of settlement, they would probably run away never to return, and probably exile and/or kill the fellow that found it. Contamination and all that.

Even if they did stumble upon the Nonmen, why keep it hidden? Kell didn't know what sranc or Nonmen were (right?), so obviously it was at least not common knowledge. What would be the gain of keeping the majority of their populace in the dark, so to speak? The only thing I can think of is that the ruling class has some sort of agenda that is well hidden. Again though, need more info to do more than speculate on that.

Then we have the Inchoroi, who have been ruling Ishterebinth for a long time. They would notice some super smart 'slaves' that infiltrated the ranks of the rabble the Nonmen may be keeping around. Especially when they started trying to do what they must do in order to control all circumstance.

Also, controlling Nonmen with normal Dunyain techniques would probably be at least a bit effective than when used on humans. Not really having much of a history or religion or much of a political structure themselves, there would be much less levers to control them with.



Though I do certainly  agree that passage as a lot in it upon further inspection, I see a different path, though my theory is much less thought out than yours, as is typical.
I find it more likely that the Dunyain and Nonmen had once been close, or that they had some common goal and worked together to achieve it (The Absolute or something of that nature). However as more and more Nonmen lost their memories, the Dunyain found them as more of a burden than and asset, and started leaving the Nonmen behind. Then first apocalypse hits and severs, quite cleanly, the remaining ties they used to have. They had been looking for a new home for some time, somewhere isolated, and blah blah blah, suddenly Ishual.

At least we can agree that the words chosen for this monologue cannot be ignored.
Legion, Truth, Darkness.
Being -> becoming, once the past dies. Rather similar to The Absolute.
As is stripping away memories, when you consider that only by going beyond all memory, to the very beginning of thought and being can one have a self moving soul.
When the past dies: If tall the past dies, what is before you?

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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2013, 07:53:06 pm »
Quote from: Madness
I believe I mentioned in this thread previously that I limit my theory of this Dunyain takeover of the Nonmen to the last twenty years.

Also, the quote from TWP, where Aurang tells Sarcellus that there is little that Nil'giccas does that they (the Consult) do not know is hardly "the Inchoroi are ruling Ishterebinth."

Seriously though, Wilshire, I'm basically just spouting fantasies lol. Thought out theory... or madness?

I will counter though with the inevitable realization that even if there is no hidden heirarchy within the Dunyain, one of them, at some time, is going to advocate something... progressive.

Like the fact that the Dunyain are ignoring fundamental variables of reality in their self-mastery. That both Dunyain that have left Ishual have mastered so much more circumstance. He who commands all attains the self-moving soul, no?