The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:30 pm

Title: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:30 pm
Quote from: Jorge
This is regarding the Second Apocalypse.

Who do you find yourself rooting for? What is 'right' and 'wrong' on Earwa, and how will Scott reconcile it with reader and genre expectation at the conclusion of the trilogy?

Scott has stated various times that he wants to put the reader in a tough place by cutting against assumptions, particularly those regarding what is moral. Here's how I see it:

Kellhus- Kellhus represents the mirror-image of Nietzsche's ubermench; searching for meaninglessness in a meaningful world. Kellhus, to the moral sensibilities of most people, is utterly despicable. He manipulates others for his own ends, has no problem tying a person's will to his own, only to dispose of them later, and has yoked the entire Three Seas into what is starting to look like a death trap. One might be tempted to root for Kellhus though, because he is possibly the only person strong enough to fight/destroy the Inchoroi and Mog-Pharau. Which brings us to...

The Consult- If Kellhus is despicable, the Consult is vileness incarnate. Where Kellhus possesses, the Consult rapes. They are responsible for tremendous amounts of war, plague and suffering on Earwa, and have committed genocide against the Nonmen. They want the world to end. However, one might be tempted to root for them because if one takes their goal at face value, all they are trying to do is stop eternal suffering caused by Damnation.

The Gods of Earwa- The source of life and death, the (kinda) polytheistic pantheon of Earwa includes a Lovecraftian menagerie of deities that are little better than Ciphrang themselves. Much like the ancient Greek gods, who elicit little modern sympathy for their willingness to ruin mortal lives for amusement, the Gods of Earwa are so cruel as to be repugnant. One might be tempted to root for them because they are infinitely more likeable than the Inchoroi, less amoral than Kellhus, and the source of life on Earwa.

The Nonmen- A race of vicious slavers, the Nonmen elicit little sympathy despite being the victims of the Inchoroi. One could root for them due to their heroic resilience and mysterious nature (Scott has emphasized their 'otherness' multiple times in the narrative) any victory they have will be indefinitely marred by the fact that they are essentially already dead, thanks to the Womb-Plague.

Achamian- A half-mad wizard, doomed to eternal torment for his countless sins... Achamian is the easiest character for me to root for. But what is he really? A tool of Kellhus, manipulated through Esmenet's daughter? A deceived skeptic, hoping to show Kellhus's true nature only to find divinity behind the Aspect-Emperor?


Bonus: if you've read "The False Sun", what do you think it implies about the reality of Damnation and the mark of sorcery?
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:38 pm
Quote from: Madness
I think you've asked several deep questions over broad terrain, Jorge.  Assuming memberships, you've likely got several threads of speculation going here, as much as you have one definitive question but I'll bite and see what incites me to write.

I'm rooting for humanity's survival in the novels. But while this may or not be tied directly to the fiction's conclusion - as in if the correct moral "alignment" (by which I think we as forumers mean cosmological choice) is necessary to survive the Second Apocalypse - I'm not sure I can answer your first line of questions. I'd root for the person or group who most aligns with "human survival" as their virtuous goal but who is that? Does 'right' or 'wrong' necessarily matter for victory against the No-God? Is it a separate issue even?

I feel a lot of connection with Achamian and many of his choices. I've experienced deep love in my life and was embittered by it for awhile so Achamian's experiences in the PON had me in his corner. Plus the end of TTT is just so jarringly epic - like cool guys walking from explosions but in a really visceral and conceptual way - that I need to see the next facetime between Achamian and Kellhus. I have a lot of ideas that make Kellhus' character more comfortable to me but something very human in me, for better or for worse, wants Achamian to shove Truth down the Aspect-Emperor's throat.

Sorweel and Mimara are fast becoming favorites, especially on my most recent reread, though this might have to do with the novelty of their arcs. Though I mean, I'm a random fuck who actually seems to empathize with a lot of Bakker's characters. He's put these caricatures of people in some really, really difficult places.

And Cnaiur will always have a special place in my heart. A buddy and I still yell his name to each other in greeting when we see each other. The most violent of men might be my favorite barbarian ever - SFF has lots of those - and he is most brutalized and twisted by the force of the Dunyain.

- Madness
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:44 pm
Quote from: Swense
At this point, I don't think I can say I'm rooting for anyone. Akka always elicits sympathy from me, and the poor sod deserves a break at some point. Conphas, Skauras and Cnaiur were my three favorite characters, but they're all dead and gone now, and so far no-one has managed to step up to fill their shoes, besides perhaps little creepy Inri, but he was too much of a one-off character for me to really love.

I'm not necessarily rooting for the survival of the human race. I'm rooting for the removal of arbitrary damnation. It seems exceptionally cruel that across the entire universe (as far as we know) the world is punished according to the standards of Earwan morality. The Inchoroi after all, slaughtered thousands of worlds and I'd imagine a fair number of those worlds were probably damned for no greater reason than say, perhaps not following the Earwan equivalent of Kosher or praying to some false deity. Or not believing in deities at all. The Earwan system of meaning seems as cruel and unjust as possible - and therefore if I'm rooting for anything, I'd like to see the world be sealed.

Of course then again, I'd also like to see the Inchoroi perish. But that's just a visceral gut reaction. I can't root for the Inchoroi, no matter how compelling their logic. And I don't see why the Consult had to buy into their agenda completely - surely one can labor to undo damnation without being pulled into the whole crazy rape machine that is the Ark. But alas, their inability to escape the bulging members and black seed has left me decidedly unsympathetic to anyone in Earwa.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:52 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Swense, throughout my entire reading, I have been (uncomfortably) forced to root for the Inchoroi! Precisely because Achamian is such a sympathetic figure, it strikes me as deeply unjust that he should spend his afterlife in eternal torment merely for the circumstance life forced on him (sorcery).

I am doubtful, however, that Scott will acquiesce to "the poor sod deserves a break at some point". If it's true he wants to cut against reader expectations, then Achamian is well and truly fucked. End of story.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:12:58 pm
Quote from: Swense
Quote from: Jorge
I am doubtful, however, that Scott will acquiesce to "the poor sod deserves a break at some point". If it's true he wants to cut against reader expectations, then Achamian is well and truly fucked. End of story.

He deserves a break. I agree you're likely right though.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:05 pm
Quote from: Bastard of Godsgrace
I certainly root for survival of humanity, because, well, it is a given, yes? I also root for Non-Men, they may be nasty bastards, but they are way cool and I would love to see their return. It does seem to be dubious, though, considering the lack of Non-Men women, but there was a theory they could be fertile with Dunyain women, which could lead to creation of a new mixed race.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:11 pm
Quote from: Philippe
Honestly I often find myself rooting for the characters that have the best chance of revealing more about the metaphysical foundations of Eärwa. So Kellhus, Mimara, the Yatwerians, the Consult-- whoever. I'm in it for the world-building! :)

Although it's hard not to hope Achamian might come out on top, having been in his head for so long throughout all the books.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:17 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Akka has, as an old man, crossed half the world (world as we know it) through some of the most insanely dangerous territory! Let us cut him a break and say he accomplished something! Even if it was prompted by malware K put in his brain that time he hypnotised him.

Otherwise both the damnation mechanism and the consult BOTH seem mighty rape machines to me. I doubt Kellhus's goals include breaking the damnation mechanism, but they might - so I'd back him, hoping he'd do so then conveniently die (maybe fall on some spikey rocks, cleric style) right after and let the world from his (direct) grip (ie, the most unlikely time for him to die, so the more unlikely end scenario to root for! Of course!).

I'm wondering what the big feminist surprise hinted at is (the useful thing the whole ROH discussions and similar got was this hint wheedled out of the author)
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:23 pm
Quote from: sciborg2
We know that Esmi's arc concludes, but this may not mean much for all of Earwa's women. There is also the possibility that Mimara is the Messiah, and a new covenant between humanity and the Outside can be written through her.

The one major character that matters is the World. Scott has said that the world itself conspires, and I think this means it pushes people into narrative arcs. What this means exactly is unclear, but I think there is something to Esmi's daughter becoming the Messiah. For people who read Valente's Deathless, the idea of "narrative time" is more overt, people essentially slipping into roles.

Ideally, Kellhus somehow lays the ground for a rewriting of damnation *after* the Consult is gone. After all, the No-God itself may still be useful once it is out of Inchoroi hands.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:29 pm
Quote from: Ajokli
Throughout the novels, I'm progressed from rooting for Kellhus to Achamian to undecided. TUC may lean me toward The Consult.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:36 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Quote from: sciborg
There is also the possibility that Mimara is the Messiah, and a new covenant between humanity and the Outside can be written through her.

I have considered this. Mimara is easy to root for, and she does slip into the "Luke Skywalker" template a little in the second trilogy.

Quote
Ideally, Kellhus somehow lays the ground for a rewriting of damnation *after* the Consult is gone. After all, the No-God itself may still be useful once it is out of Inchoroi hands.

That would be an interesting way to end it.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:42 pm
Quote from: Madness
Jorge, I've appreciated coming to understand you more deeply through the comments on TPB while Vox stopped by. I'm curious if you are familiar with Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey? Perhaps, read the Hero With A Thousand Faces?
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:48 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Madness
Perhaps, read the Hero With A Thousand Faces?
Note that skin spies are literally Villain with a Thousand faces.

:D
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:13:54 pm
Quote from: Swense
Or just ten extra face fingers.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:01 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
I must throw my support behind the Angels of Flesh, the Race of Lovers.

Yes, they are essentially some sort of horrible obscenity elementals but:

1.The concepts  behind them are so fucking cool. They're easily my favorite alien species. Maybe just because I love biotech, and it's clear Bakker did some research.

2. I don't agree with their methods or motives, but their goal is the only ray of hope in Bakkerverse. As Aurang quite rightly put it: "This world is an outrage!" The world MUST be shut from the Outside.

3. Spite. I wasn't interested in him at first, but I found Akka's character arc through Prince of Nothing to be absolutely heart breaking...but let's face it, there's no final victory for him. So I want to see Kellhus and the Gods forced to swallow metaphysical humble pie in the form of some sort of meaning singularity screaming "WHAT DO YOU SEE" in bold text.

I also enjoy reading Kelmomas' point of view. Because there's something very wrong with me.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:12 pm
Quote from: dharmakirti
Akka is the most relatable to me, so I root for him.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:19 pm
Quote from: Charamemas
I was rooting for Maithanet, because he is the Holy Shriah, then Bakker went and wasted him. Hurrrrr. Now I root for Kellhus because he is easily the least malignant of the major factions. Which brings me to this:


Quote from: The Sharmat
2. I don't agree with their methods or motives, but their goal is the only ray of hope in Bakkerverse. As Aurang quite rightly put it: "This world is an outrage!" The world MUST be shut from the Outside.

Aurang is outraged because the inherent morality of the Bakkerverse won't let let him get his jollies from interspecies bukkake and pheremone-induced rape. Poor baby.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:25 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
On a purely moral basis I'd actually say the Fanim are the least repugnant. I just find them less fun than the Consult.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:32 pm
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Let me start by saying I know I'm not going to get the warm, fuzzy ending that I wish for.

An end to the Inchoroi and the horrors they inflict on the world.

An end to Damnation without genocide.

Some kind of inner peace for Akka and Minara.

The gods of Earwa to perish screaming in the flames of their own cruelty.

Some hope for the future for the Nonmen.  They might be slavers, but so is every other society on Earwa.

Retirement to some place nice for Esmenet, because she's put up with way too much shit and has certainly earned it.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:38 pm
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, CC. I wouldn't get our hopes up though. Plus I think it says something very interesting about ourselves that the deeper this story gets, the more we pine for the satisfaction of the standard tropes.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:44 pm
Quote from: Cynical Cat
Quote from: Madness
Cheers, CC. I wouldn't get our hopes up though. Plus I think it says something very interesting about ourselves that the deeper this story gets, the more we pine for the satisfaction of the standard tropes.

Oh I know that, but I wouldn't call it "the satisfaction of the standard tropes."  It isn't standard tropes, it is justice that we want.  That's why people yearn for a world with meaning.  Bakker has shown us a world of meaning where whatever determines what "justice" is does not share our values and the true horror that implies.

Also, while I'm compiling a list, stop giving everyone on the lower rungs of the social ladder (women, slaves, caste menials) a raw deal.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:51 pm
Quote from: Madness
Bless your stalwart heart, CC.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:14:56 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
What is a lower rung, if it does not give some sort of raw deal?
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:15:08 pm
Quote from: CFKane
I root for the Consult. The world of Earwa (and perhaps the universe of Earwa) should be shut off from the outside. As The Sharmat noted, Aurang is right: "This world is an outrage!" better to be shut against the outside than damned by the arbitrary whims of uncaring gods (or an uncaring god, if the Fanim are correct).

I'd like Achamian to come out OK though - I have a lot of sympathy for him.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:15:12 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm not sure you can suggest that the Solitary God is necessarily uncaring. Sure, he's unable to stop his entire religious populace from devastation but in hindsight the PON is beginning to be reframed by the Layers of Revelation in TAE - those Renegade demons join together under one unholy-motherfucker, after all, and it seems godhandle the plot of the PON on their way to kill what actually might be the true religion.

Another point for the Solitary over the God of Gods: "But more and more the different eye seems to open, one that has her perplexed for many years - that frightens her like an unwanted yen for perversion. Its lid is drowsy, and indeed it slumbers so deep she often forgets its presence. But when it stirs, the very world is transformed.

For moments at a time, she can see them ... Good and evil.

Not buried, not hidden, but writ like another colour or texture across the hide of everything. The way good men shine brighter than good women. Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow. The world is unequal in the eyes of the God - she understands this with intimate profundity." p.129, TJE

Bolding alone is mine.

Also, from this passage, Callan, it might reflect the possibility that those lower on the Divine rankings might experience something other than the normal persecutions by the fluctuations of their social nodes.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:15:43 pm
Quote from: sciborg2
Quote from: CFKane
I root for the Consult. The world of Earwa (and perhaps the universe of Earwa) should be shut off from the outside. As The Sharmat noted, Aurang is right: "This world is an outrage!" better to be shut against the outside than damned by the arbitrary whims of uncaring gods (or an uncaring god, if the Fanim are correct).

I'd like Achamian to come out OK though - I have a lot of sympathy for him.

The big challenge here is what exactly will the Consult (Or Kellhus if he apprehends - mentally and physically - the No-God) be doing with its immortal existences?

Because if Akka is correct and souls are links to the Outside, then do the gate keepers who shut away the Gods simply need to keep the population below some threshold?

If the soul is intrinsically part of the Outside coming in, like Akka claims, what exactly does it mean to shut away the world? That every being who is born following the shutting of the world is a "skin-spy", a consciousness that possesses no soul?
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:15:52 pm
Quote from: Swense
Serpents were holy in most agricultural, Indo-European civilizations before the introduction of Semitic-inspired religions.

Particularly the Greeks, IIRC.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:15:58 pm
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Quote from: Madness
Or how serpents glow holy, while pigs seem to wallow in polluting shadow.


So when viewed through the Judging Eye, serpents are holy... Cishaurim use serpents to, "see," the most objective world on this side of reality, and Nin'sariccas (the Emissary sent by the non men in Ishterebinth to meet Kellhus and the Great Ordeal II) wears a nimil hauberk with the chainmail links in the form of serpents:

Quote
He wore a hauberk that was at once a gown, one that baffled the eyes for the wrought delicacy of the chain: innumerable serpents no larger than the clippings of a child's nails.

I love to speculate on these things... I have this terrible feeling that in TUC and TSTSNBN everything is going to be turned on its' head. The righteous and the wicked are going to change places... Actually, I've gotten the impression that this may have happened before in history... You get enough living souls to alter their belief in what constitutes damnation to hit some kind of critical mass and you suddenly have an inversion of what is holy versus what earns you damnation. Provided the world remains open to the outside, of course. I figure it happened once when Cu'jara Cinmoi leapt upon the altar (presumably after having regained his youth from receiving the nostrums of the Inchoroi when Nin'janjin returned still young), again at some point when Nil'Giccas took over in Ishoriol, and more recently during the breaking when Men destroyed the High Mansions of Earwa...

Quote
Cu’jara Cinmoi leaps upon the altar, gloating, displaying the mad extent of his arrogance, openly, outrageously, knowing that his own would celebrate his impiety as strength, and that his enemies would cry out for heartbreak and fury.
Quote
And the Ishroi kick aside their nimil skirts and kneel–and so does madness become religion. “I... am... immortal...”

I love how Bakker sets up this Juxtaposition of what many of us have as preconceived notions... In his world, serpents are holy, whereas in most Judeo-Christian backgrounds, serpents are associated with evil... Conversely, whereas we have Herons and Lions as avatars of nobility and justice, we could all be being set up for a reversal of the righteousness of Nil'Giccas:

Quote
Cleric stood atop the heights of a shattered inner wall, gazing high after the thing. Brush fires raged beyond him, throwing lines of orange across his jaw and cheek. His nimil chain glistened in the dry sunlight, and for the first time the old Wizard saw the faint lines of filigree worked across its innumerable links.
Herons. Herons and lions.

I've had this nagging suspicion about an exchange in TJE when Akka first meets Cleric:

Quote
"I remember..." the blackness wrapped by the cowl said. "I remember the slaughter of..."
A peculiar sound, like a sob thumbed into the shape of a cackle.
"Of children."

It is suggested that this memory comes from Nil'Giccas' presence at the fall of the Library of Sauglish... What we don't learn is just who was doing the slaughtering... I have this horrid inkling that it was Nil'Giccas himself chop chopping the kiddies...
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:16:08 pm
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Also, back to the OP... I'm rooting for some kind of final peace for the remaining Cunuroi that doesn't involve damnation. True oblivion, as it were, and guaranteed... Not based on some abstract worshipping the spaces between the gods and hoping you split the defencemen on your way through the outside and miss being Ciphrang fodder for eternity. Maybe as some kind of reunification of the million warring fragments of god. Actually, I have this suspicion that ending up in oblivion actually means that you give up your individuality in the outside and rejoin the larger, "sleeping," fragment of the Solitary God awaiting all the other little broken pieces to come back to it one day.

And also... CNAIUR!!!!!!!!!!!!! urs Skiotha, most violent of all men. I know he's probably dead dead, but I love that fucker.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:16:14 pm
Quote from: Jorge
Very good posts Mr. Ishroi. I had failed to notice the discrepancy in the design of the hauberk and chainmail. It's possible they simply represent different houses, but... *RED FLAG*

Quote
I have this suspicion that ending up in oblivion actually means that you give up your individuality in the outside and rejoin the larger, "sleeping," fragment of the Solitary God awaiting all the other little broken pieces to come back to it one day.

Various major symbols in the work are the Gnostic cross, the Logos and Gnostic sorcery. This points to some version of Gnosticism-like metaphysics to be the actual reality on Earwa.

The cool part is that if this is true, then even the alien Inchoroi are little (yucky) pieces of the Solitary God.
(See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge for lots of cool real-world references to the shit that happens on Earwa)
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:16:21 pm
Quote from: Madness
Seconded on the good post.

You should take a gander at my Unholy Consult post, Wayward. I think you'd be able to catch everything I missed.

Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Cishaurim use serpents to, "see," the most objective world on this side of reality

This actually isn't specifically the case. The Cishaurim use serpents to see "mundane" creation - however we might define that in this series - and blind themselves in order to see the Outside. Kellhus explains some measure of this to Achamian in TTT and Meppa offers some rounding descriptions, however, I like TWP perspectives best. This is Achamian's:

"Achamian and Xinemus walked the ways of twilight, between light and dark, where only shadows are known. There was no food in this place, no life-giving water, and their bodies, which they carried across their backs the way one might carry a corpse, suffered horribly.

The twilight way. The shadow way. From the port city of Joktha to Caraskand.

When they passed near the camps of the enemy, they could feel the Cishaurim's plucked eyes - brilliant, pure, like a lamplight before a silvered mirror - search for them from beyond the horizon. Many times Achamian felt that otherworldly light throw shadows from their shadows. Many times Achamian thought they were doomed. But always those eyes turned away their inhuman scrutiny, either decided or... Achamian could not say why." p.642-643, TWP

Also, Xinemus soon after offers his perspective.

"'Akka,' Xinemus said, scowling in his queer, eyeless fashion. 'When we walked as shadows ...' ... 'I'm blind,' Xinemus continued, 'Blind as blind could be, Akka! And yet I saw them ... The Cishaurim. I saw them seeing!'

'You did see,' he said carefully, 'in a manner ... There's many ways of seeing. And all of us possess eyes that never breach skin. Men are wrong to think nothing lies between blindness and sight.'

'And the Cishaurim?' Xinemus pressed. "Is that ... Is that how they-'

'The Cishaurim are masters of this interval. They blind themselves, they say, to better see the World Between. According to some, it's the key to their metaphysics.'" p.651-652, TWP

Also, the World Between has it's own Glossary entry.

As to the Nonmen, I just had one thing to add, Wayward. I find it interesting that you think Nil'giccas contemporaneously disagreed with Cu'jara Cinmoi's decision to have the Womb Plague give them immortality - not that the Inchoroi came selling Womb Plague and if the scenario even happens as you say it.
Title: Re: Who Are You Rooting For? [SPOILERS]
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 07:16:29 pm
Quote from: Wayward Ishroi
Yes, sorry, you've described the Cish use of serpents to see much better... Sort of what I was getting at but didn't come out right. The 'mundane' sight is probably the key descriptor there.

Regarding the Womb Plague and immortality... Yes I think that accepting and consuming it was a choice for the Nonmen, a choice that Cu'jara Cinmoi made first, and through his actions and position as King/Ishroi/Quya influenced the rest of the non men to follow suit.

From Cinial'Jin:
Quote
Something. Something in the meat.

I don't actually think it was Nil'giccas who disagreed with the choice to accept the Immortality, and subsequently the Womb Plague , but rather Cinial'jin... The bit about the Ishroi kneeling and madness becoming religion was from one of the earlier edits of T4RoCJ short story:

Quote
Cu’jara Cinmoi’s glare somehow slips the uproar and picks him from the confusion. Yes. You know.

From TTT glossary:

Quote
Then Nin’janjin returned. Invoking the ancient codes, he appeared before Cû’jara-Cinmoi begging Mercy and Penance. When the High King of Siöl bid Nin’janjin come near so he might see him, he was astonished to discover his old adversary had not aged. Then Nin’janjin revealed his true reason for coming to Siöl. The Inchoroi, he said, were too terrified of Cû’jara-Cinmoi’s might to leave their Ark, so they dwelt in confinement and misery. They had sent him, he claimed, to sue for peace. They wished to know what tribute might temper the High King’s fury.

To which Cû’jara-Cinmoi replied: “I would be young of heart, face, and limb. I would banish Death from the halls of my people.”

So "immortality" was the request CC made of the Inchoroi via Nin'janjin