The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: Wilshire on August 26, 2016, 12:43:28 pm

Title: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2016, 12:43:28 pm
Not a film but:

https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2016/08/25/still-idiosyncratic-yet-verging-on-mainstream/

TV rights, apparently.




As requested, a fresh topic for the possibility of this: according to Bakker on his blog (link above):

Quote
And with details forthcoming, it looks like we have a deal for the television rights to The Prince of Nothing… there’s not much I can say yet, except that the more books I can sell, the greater the chance of seeing the series on the screen! Time to pull out the purple tuxedo…
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 26, 2016, 03:53:53 pm
I assume it's targeting one or more of the premium movie channels. There's just no way to bring the content of these books to television unless it was late night cable or something.

His comment sounds like there's some contractual mechanism for the show contingent on sales. I hope he didn't get screwed over in the agreement. As others on the blog mentioned, I'm worried about the rights sitting on a shelf while there's other groups out there that may otherwise be interested.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2016, 03:58:49 pm
I'm not confident in Bakker's (or his agent's) contract negotiating skills, based on how botched his Overlook books have been through the years, and how terrible the rollout of TGO has been in Canada (still not in the shelves as of this posting, even though its been out for 3 months). So, I fully agree with those concerns.

Scifi Syfy channel is doing Hyperion, and I fully expect that to be mediocre at best. Maybe he's selling the rights to Scifi Syfy as well, that way they can ruin both my favorite series all at once and I can put these dreams of grandeur to bed.

Hopefully though, HBO or Starz or whatever premium channel picks it up and they give it a fair shake. It'll need some creative scripting to get through all the internal dialogue, all the different POVs in the first book, the background info stuff, fixing the pacing to work better for a TV fandom... It'll take a lot of work - lets hope whoever is buying the rights is interested in doing that work well.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 26, 2016, 04:10:03 pm
Wilshire, it's spelled SyFy! (so cool)

That's crazy they're doing Hyperion, I know Bradley Cooper's been trying to get that going for years (he probably would have preferred a film). I don't know if you saw the Dune mini series they made out of the first three books but I actually enjoyed it a lot, it was certainly much better than the David Lynch film. A lot of people seem to like the channel's current output of original series', so don't fear to hope against hope!

Actually when you look at their latest output it would make total sense that they've locked down the Prince of Nothing.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 26, 2016, 04:15:36 pm
Wilshire, it's spelled SyFy! (so cool)
Oh man, thanks for that. Wouldn't want to be left out of the cool kids klub (^ ^).

That's crazy they're doing Hyperion, I know Bradley Cooper's been trying to get that going for years (he probably would have preferred a film).
I'm worried about it, but maybe they'll do a good job.

I don't know if you saw the Dune mini series they made out of the first three books but I actually enjoyed it a lot,
Haven't seen, but I dont think it was critically acclaimed :P


 it was certainly much better than the David Lynch film.
I'm not sure it could be worse. That was... unwatchable - at least for me, trying to watch it a couple years ago for the first time.

A lot of people seem to like the channel's current output of original series', so don't fear to hope against hope!

Actually when you look at their latest output it would make total sense that they've locked down the Prince of Nothing.


Yeah I was being semi-serious with Syfy, but I'm so not ready to hope for real. Maybe if we can slide some TSAers onto that screen-play writers list, I'll allow for some slight hope :) .
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Redeagl on August 26, 2016, 04:28:45 pm
I don't think that Syfy will buy this series knowing the challenges that awaits them.They don't have the budget for it. It must have been one of the bigger channels,say Showtime or Starz.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 26, 2016, 08:55:46 pm
I'm almost done with my first re-read of the "Prince of Nothing" trilogy, and I've been mulling about how it could be adapted for a TV series. There is some amazing stuff in there that just screams for a cinematic/televised treatment, and it could be great... if done well.

BUT... There are some SIGNIFICANT challenges.
 - The raping and misogyny would have to be dialed back a LOT, even if this was for HBO/Showtime/Starz.
 - The vast number of characters and locations would probably need some trimming. For example, it would simplify things to merge the Sumna location into Monemn.
 - How do you present Kellhus POV? With voice-overs? Sherlock-esque text overlays? Just great acting?

I would love to see this done well, as a deconstruction of the typical Crusade narrative, set in a mostly middle east inspired setting. (In my mind I read the Nansur empire as being inspired by the Byzantine empire, with the Kianese as very Persian)
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Redeagl on August 26, 2016, 09:41:40 pm
I'm almost done with my first re-read of the "Prince of Nothing" trilogy, and I've been mulling about how it could be adapted for a TV series. There is some amazing stuff in there that just screams for a cinematic/televised treatment, and it could be great... if done well.

BUT... There are some SIGNIFICANT challenges.
 - The raping and misogyny would have to be dialed back a LOT, even if this was for HBO/Showtime/Starz.
 - The vast number of characters and locations would probably need some trimming. For example, it would simplify things to merge the Sumna location into Monemn.
 - How do you present Kellhus POV? With voice-overs? Sherlock-esque text overlays? Just great acting?

I would love to see this done well, as a deconstruction of the typical Crusade narrative, set in a mostly middle east inspired setting. (In my mind I read the Nansur empire as being inspired by the Byzantine empire, with the Kianese as very Persian)
Hmm I don't think that your second point is valid. GOT has far more characters and locations so that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 26, 2016, 09:53:25 pm
I'm almost done with my first re-read of the "Prince of Nothing" trilogy, and I've been mulling about how it could be adapted for a TV series. There is some amazing stuff in there that just screams for a cinematic/televised treatment, and it could be great... if done well.

BUT... There are some SIGNIFICANT challenges.
 - The raping and misogyny would have to be dialed back a LOT, even if this was for HBO/Showtime/Starz.
 - The vast number of characters and locations would probably need some trimming. For example, it would simplify things to merge the Sumna location into Monemn.
 - How do you present Kellhus POV? With voice-overs? Sherlock-esque text overlays? Just great acting?

I would love to see this done well, as a deconstruction of the typical Crusade narrative, set in a mostly middle east inspired setting. (In my mind I read the Nansur empire as being inspired by the Byzantine empire, with the Kianese as very Persian)
Hmm I don't think that your second point is valid. GOT has far more characters and locations so that shouldn't be a problem.
Yes, but as has been pointed out in the old "The Prince of Nothing (Film)" thread (that I just discovered)  :-[, in GOT you started with few locations and grew from there - whereas PON (Book 1) starts with the characters spread in many places, gradually moving towards each other only to meet up at the end of book 1. That many locations could be problematic for the first few episodes.

I'm not saying it is impossible, but it will be more challenging to adapt than GOT.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on August 26, 2016, 11:45:03 pm
No 'Boasting about movie rights being bought is like boasting about buying a lottery ticket' caveat this time? Or is TV far more likely to happen than a movie?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 27, 2016, 03:11:52 am
Yep, lots of challenges for sure. Hopefully the people that are involved will make intelligent decisions. It likely won't be able to play out exactly like the books, so it'll be a challenge to stay true to TSA and make it interesting to a wider audience.

Also, how far away is selling rights from production? Does money actually change hands? That's a win for the author then, even if it's not made. Maybe it'll fund the writing of TSTSNBN.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on August 27, 2016, 04:44:23 am
I think any money would really just be a reservation payment at this point.

From what I've heard about the GOT adaption, I hope they don't do bizarre changes - like the underage sex being made into rape or the incest sex being...made into rape. It's like any time the GOT producers had their own sense of normal challenged, they had to make it rape.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 27, 2016, 06:08:04 am
Most rights deals involve some money changing hands just for sitting on the rights.  So Scott got paid even if they end up doing nothing with it.  Now it won't be big Hollywood money (that might happen if they make a series and it is successful), but it will be real money.  A lot of these things end up never getting made, so don't get your hopes up yet, but this is an entry in the plus column on whether or not Scott can continue to be full time writer and support his family.  Even if no series comes of this, it is a good thing.

As for who is doing it, I can't write off Syfy after the job they did with The Expanse.  The Magicians was also pretty good, but it doesn't require the same kind of resources that The Expanse does and they did a good job of it.  It could be any number of channels really.  Even if it goes to series it probably won't start until Game of Thrones is ending and GoT's success is probably one of the things helping to push interest in Scott's work.  As for Hyperion, it can really only work as a series.  Can you imagine how badly a movie would have to butcher the pilgrim's stories in order to include them in under three hours?  It's a miracle that Snyder was able to bring in Watchmen under three hours and still be fairly faithful.  Hyperion would be impossible.  The Soldier's Story alone is going to eat up at least an hour to do it right.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 27, 2016, 08:30:37 am
Not interested unless it's animated. Live action would take a giant budget to do it justice. Animation...still big, but less so. of course, then there's an even smaller market...
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 27, 2016, 10:00:19 am
Yeah to be honest I'd more likely to watch it if it was animated. I watch a lot more animated shows than not. But I hope for great success regardless.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 27, 2016, 03:59:16 pm
Animated? I think that an injustice to this story and to Bakker's work, tbh. Anime is a niche and will not help to bring this story to the mainstream. I'd be very, very disappointed if it ends up being taking in that direction. TSA is a great story and I can see it being done really well. Not a whole lot that needs to be done in special effects. Everyone has voiced concern about the inner dialogue, but why is that a problem? Not very hard to bring that to the screen, seen it done in many films. I do think this will work better as a trilogy set of movies, though. Though, I figure it would be a TV show done by Showtime or Starz.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 27, 2016, 05:09:07 pm
I always thought animated would be a good option since you don't need an insane special effects budget to bring the more fantastical elements to screen. You could also get away with more of the graphic content with that kind of audience.

It wouldn't have as big of a reach as live action but it might have a better chance at making something truly special.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: themerchant on August 27, 2016, 06:08:45 pm
I'll just read the books.

However money in Bakker pocket means easier life finishing the novels, so it does have an upside.

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 27, 2016, 06:55:26 pm
I'll just read the books.

However money in Bakker pocket means easier life finishing the novels, so it does have an upside.



If it turns out to be anime, I'm with you, I'll stick to reading the books. Anime is not my thing. Is I see it on tv I switch the channel immediately. Not my thing.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2016, 12:54:16 am
A niche adaption for a niche series, sub-niche lol. Seems like something Bakker will do.

It can be animated without being anime, but I'd like either. Plenty of pros and cons for animated or live action. I'll take either, or both. Both would be ideal, for.

Anything that makes Bakker money is good. More money means more books, and unless the quality slips, that'll make me happy.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 02:56:05 am
I said animated. I didn't say anime.

It's a great tragedy those are synonyms now.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 28, 2016, 03:04:08 am
The waifus can't be stopped.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 03:17:28 am
The waifus can't be stopped.
-Timeless quote by the first Inchoroi to discover his damnation, upon being asked to repent. To this day his dedication to his fictional anime girls is scrawled upon every inch of the ark in indestructible soggomant.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 28, 2016, 05:32:59 am
I don't think it's going to be animated.  Adult orientated, serious animation isn't really something the West does but swords and intrigue is booming on cable.  It's also worth mentioning that The Prince of Nothing would involve a smaller cast and fewer locations than Game of Thrones, and thus lower costs.  It's also worth mentioning how much of the books is a couple of characters talking.  There's a lot of that and it's often pretty high stakes, but it's also comparatively cheap to film leaving more budget for the big battles.  It's also likely that we will see more of the "armored in lacquered human finger nails sranc" and fewer of the "sporting huge erections sranc".
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 06:57:59 am
Oh I never thought it would be animated. Not in a million years. It would be a terrible financial decision. I just really wish it was. And let's face it, this is a horrible financial decision anyway.

I object to the idea that it would involve a smaller cast and fewer locations than GoT. Maybe then the last few books/seasons, but The Darkness That Comes Before at least starts off quite a bit more widespread than Game of Thrones. The thing is GRRM's narrative flows and balloons outward, whereas Bakker's (mostly) consolidates around a few key points after the first book. I doubt we'll see any big battles at all, honestly. That is incredibly expensive and even GoT couldn't really justify having more than one or two after it's first season. Make no mistake, Prince of Nothing is not A Song of Ice and Fire. It's significantly more impenetrable, downright offputting to most audiences, and its main claim to fame in terms of the general geek public is being part of a particularly nasty social media spat.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on August 28, 2016, 08:19:33 am
Given the CGI that I imagine would be involved, oh yes, to some degree it is going to be animated no matter what!
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 28, 2016, 02:28:47 pm
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Onrack on August 28, 2016, 02:40:29 pm
Holy shit. I honestly never thought this would happen. I mean, I really like these books, but I'm far from convinced they could ever have mainstream success. Prince of Nothing just doesn't have the soapy elements required, unless they drastically re-write this stuff. And then there's a bunch of other challenges, like how to convincingly portray the fact of Kellhus constant manipulations. Or how mainstream audiences would react to say, the Epilogue in Warrior Prophet...Well, exciting stuff regardless, though I have a feeling nothing will come of it.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 28, 2016, 03:06:53 pm
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
It'll probably be pretty cartoonish regardless t be honest, animation or no.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 28, 2016, 05:52:41 pm
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
It'll probably be pretty cartoonish regardless t be honest, animation or no.

This is a great story with complex characters, mystery, great plot and lots of action and intrigue. If done right, it could be brought to life and be a top notch series. I don't even begin to understand how you think it would be cartoonish. Haters gonna hate.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: H on August 28, 2016, 10:15:33 pm
I wouldn't discount it being Netflix that has purchased the rights here.  I could easily see them wanting something of their own like Game of Thrones.  I still think that animated is the only way to do the story with any real fidelity, but as this thread shows, the stigma is real.  We'll see if this even gets off the ground though, the rights are far from a show actually being made.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 28, 2016, 11:58:59 pm

I object to the idea that it would involve a smaller cast and fewer locations than GoT. Maybe then the last few books/seasons, but The Darkness That Comes Before at least starts off quite a bit more widespread than Game of Thrones. The thing is GRRM's narrative flows and balloons outward, whereas Bakker's (mostly) consolidates around a few key points after the first book. I doubt we'll see any big battles at all, honestly. That is incredibly expensive and even GoT couldn't really justify having more than one or two after it's first season. Make no mistake, Prince of Nothing is not A Song of Ice and Fire. It's significantly more impenetrable, downright offputting to most audiences, and its main claim to fame in terms of the general geek public is being part of a particularly nasty social media spat.

No, it really is smaller than the early books of GoT.  I'm not saying the Prince of Nothing is small, but GoT was deliberately written to be as wide ranging as possible and the Prince of Nothing is more focused.  Check the shear size of the character lists in the back of the books.  The TV series condenses as number of characters or omits them to try and deal with that while the Prince of Nothing really focuses down to the area around the army and meetings in rooms after the first book in contrast to the Wall, Kingstown, Team Khalesi, Team Stark, and assorted other places where Brienne and so forth.    Big battles are expensive, but the central cast is much smaller and the locations are fewer as far as shooting it is a concern.

No writing it properly is going to be a concern.  A lot of the books take place inside the minds of the characters.  I imagine making them more talkative so they share their thoughts with others will the solution.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on August 29, 2016, 01:09:04 am
I just hope it doesn't fall into the hands of the usual American script writers. They seem to have a unique talent for mangling a good story with laziness and nonsensical action scenes.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on August 29, 2016, 02:55:06 am
I'd think the inner thoughts part is easy - it's run like a dream sequence with a narration of the inner thoughts, with a bunch of scenes blurring in and out of each other to depict the thoughts visually (like a dream). That or you just follow the character traveling somewhere (generally through a detail rich environment but with no actual conflict) with the narration of their thoughts over the top, as if it's what they thought about just before leaving - it gives the impression of progressing the action of the story while delivering the thinking of the story.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 29, 2016, 04:46:57 am

I object to the idea that it would involve a smaller cast and fewer locations than GoT. Maybe then the last few books/seasons, but The Darkness That Comes Before at least starts off quite a bit more widespread than Game of Thrones. The thing is GRRM's narrative flows and balloons outward, whereas Bakker's (mostly) consolidates around a few key points after the first book. I doubt we'll see any big battles at all, honestly. That is incredibly expensive and even GoT couldn't really justify having more than one or two after it's first season. Make no mistake, Prince of Nothing is not A Song of Ice and Fire. It's significantly more impenetrable, downright offputting to most audiences, and its main claim to fame in terms of the general geek public is being part of a particularly nasty social media spat.

No, it really is smaller than the early books of GoT.  I'm not saying the Prince of Nothing is small, but GoT was deliberately written to be as wide ranging as possible and the Prince of Nothing is more focused.  Check the shear size of the character lists in the back of the books.  The TV series condenses as number of characters or omits them to try and deal with that while the Prince of Nothing really focuses down to the area around the army and meetings in rooms after the first book in contrast to the Wall, Kingstown, Team Khalesi, Team Stark, and assorted other places where Brienne and so forth.    Big battles are expensive, but the central cast is much smaller and the locations are fewer as far as shooting it is a concern.

We are talking about the *FIRST* book, where GOT is relatively compact. Why are you bringing up Brienne? GOT (book 1 and season 1) starts off with all characters in TWO locations. That's it. It gradually expands from there, but it is a slow expansion. "The Darkness that comes before" does not do that... It does the opposite. Characters travel vast distances to finally meet at the end of the book. That is a problematic structure for an adaption, no matter how you slice it.

After that things do indeed become easier, sure, but you've got to hook people early... People will tune out if they are not hooked by episode 2 or 3. GRRM wrote GOT with with a very cliffhanger heavy structure which made it easier to include some "hooks" at every episode to make sure people came back. Bakker does it as well, but not as consistently as GRRM, so there will be much more adaption work required to create a structure that has that "hook" after the pilot - and every episode after that.

It's not impossible, sure... On the positive side, PON has a trinity of truly excellent characters to hang a drama around - Achamian, Kellhus, and Cnaiür. Get the casting of those three characters right, and things could flow well from there. Fail in that casting... And you would have a disaster.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 29, 2016, 04:55:28 am
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. I don't care if you call it Anime or animation, why would you be hoping for that?
(and frankly it is no insult to call it anime since at least anime has a longer history of stories with adult themes)

I want to see an epic live action adaption... Fail or succeed, I want them to aim very high. (Lynch's "Dune" is a failure, but it is a massively impressive and interesting failure) Going for an animated format is the opposite of aiming high.

Given the long scope of the story, I think three 10-episode seasons on something like HBO (or even Netflix) would be perfect to cover the PON trilogy. A movie adaption would required too much change to the story, unless they are very smart about what they cut.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 08:50:21 am
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
It'll probably be pretty cartoonish regardless t be honest, animation or no.

This is a great story with complex characters, mystery, great plot and lots of action and intrigue. If done right, it could be brought to life and be a top notch series. I don't even begin to understand how you think it would be cartoonish. Haters gonna hate.

If done right is the key phrase there. This will be very easy to mess up.

Animation is better suited to bombastic fantasy for anything that doesn't have a LOTR level budget. I don't care for the stylistic choices and themes anime usually goes for but western animation has been stuck in a ghetto of kiddy fare and Pixar movies for ages. Would be nice for there to be something good to balance that out. I mean you can hope for whatever you want I guess but you might went to temper those expectations. The series may not be made at all and if it does, it'd hardly be surprising for it to be a failure. Most series fail. And usually not in an impressive for interesting way.

I don't see why animation can't be aiming high anyway. You can do some beautiful stuff there, if you care to.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 09:02:22 am
Anime, animation, if there is a difference well excuse my ignorance. Here I put it like this, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH A FUCKING CARTOON OF MY FAVORITE SERIES!!!!!!!!!!
It'll probably be pretty cartoonish regardless t be honest, animation or no.

This is a great story with complex characters, mystery, great plot and lots of action and intrigue. If done right, it could be brought to life and be a top notch series. I don't even begin to understand how you think it would be cartoonish. Haters gonna hate.

If done right is the key phrase there. This will be very easy to mess up.

Animation is better suited to bombastic fantasy for anything that doesn't have a LOTR level budget. I don't care for the stylistic choices and themes anime usually goes for but western animation has been stuck in a ghetto of kiddy fare and Pixar movies for ages. Would be nice for there to be something good to balance that out. I mean you can hope for whatever you want I guess but you might went to temper those expectations. The series may not be made at all and if it does, it'd hardly be surprising for it to be a failure. Most series fail. And usually not in an impressive for interesting way.

I don't see why animation can't be aiming high anyway. You can do some beautiful stuff there, if you care to.

Oh, my hopes are not high that it will even get made. But, I certainly don't want it to be a cartoon. Come on, that's the expectation for this story? Why don't we just have Pickachu make an appearance?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on August 29, 2016, 09:50:04 am
"WHO WOULD MURDER ME!?" - Pikachu

"The red on my cheeks, growing with each a kiss of the tatooists needle daubed in red ink, for every one of your kinsman I have slain!" - Pikachu

"War is intellect - and men are stupid" - Gary Oak

"YOU MUST TELL ME, DID I CATCH THEM ALL!?" - The no god

“One cannot raise pokeballs against what has been forgotten.”
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 10:21:30 am
Oh, my hopes are not high that it will even get made. But, I certainly don't want it to be a cartoon. Come on, that's the expectation for this story? Why don't we just have Pickachu make an appearance?
Cartoons only have to be for children as long as people expect cartoons to be for children. There are counter examples. Despite being based on a comic book, HBO's animated Spawn was not only great, it's something most children should probably never be allowed to watch.

I would totally watch Callan's version though.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 10:24:09 am
I think I see, Father...

Yes...the Master Ball
-Ashnurimbor Ketchum
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 10:59:34 am
Oh, my hopes are not high that it will even get made. But, I certainly don't want it to be a cartoon. Come on, that's the expectation for this story? Why don't we just have Pickachu make an appearance?
Cartoons only have to be for children as long as people expect cartoons to be for children. There are counter examples. Despite being based on a comic book, HBO's animated Spawn was not only great, it's something most children should probably never be allowed to watch.

I would totally watch Callan's version though.

True. I have watched many cartoons or what have you and enjoyed a lot of them. The anime ninja/Pikachu junk, uhhhh, not my cup of tea. I'm not saying they are all childish and cannot be enjoyable. I think it would do nothing to bring TSA to the mainstream. TSA is a niche in the fantasy genre with what amounts to a cult following, anime is a niche medium. I think it would be a total bomb. In fact, as much as I love these books, if animation is the route taking, I would not be excited at all and could care less to watch it. Its just my opinion and taste. I think it an injustice to the story. Do you know how many adults I know that watch adult anime? None. If the goal is to make TSA available to a wide audience and bring the story to life, that's the worst route possible.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 11:21:39 am
TSA will never be mainstream without losing everything that makes it good in the first place.

And I was never talking about anime.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 29, 2016, 01:18:37 pm
Careful what you wish for, MSJ. I'm with Sharmat, mainstream TSA TV show might not be something us bookreaders would appreciate.

I could be wrong though. I dont read GOT or watch the show, and thats probably the best metric there is for fantasy to TV adaption. From what I gather, fans of the books are fairly satisfied, so maybe there's hope.



Netflix is a good guess H. They are doing all kinds of stuff, and they have had some great original shows recently, I guess I could trust them to do a decent TSA.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 02:25:34 pm
Fans of the book are satisfied with GoT? I remember tons of complaints from when I watched it, and I stopped watching it in season 5. I can only assume it's gotten worse.

Basically I'm saying I think this will be a financial failure regardless. If it is meant to be one, I'd rather it's one season be in a form I'd enjoy, and not just a budget ripoff of GoT.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 29, 2016, 04:39:19 pm
Fans of the book are satisfied with GoT? I remember tons of complaints from when I watched it, and I stopped watching it in season 5. I can only assume it's gotten worse.

And I remember (and still see) tons of praise - see how wonderfully subjective things can be?  ;) It is one of the most popular shows on TV in recent history (ratings increase every year), and also one of the most faithful fantasy adaptations in the medium's history. A few vocal critics on Westeros.org and elsewhere doesn't change that. I'm certainly pleased with it overall, but then again I don't hold the source material as flawless.

With GOT ending in two years, it could provide a window of opportunity for another fantasy epic on television, and PON certainly qualifies as that.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 29, 2016, 05:41:07 pm
Fans of the book are satisfied with GoT? I remember tons of complaints from when I watched it, and I stopped watching it in season 5. I can only assume it's gotten worse.

I assumed they were.

If not, then more to my point - TV/Film adaptations are NOT for the book fans. Lets be honest, we're a niche market to begin with, I assume the major driver for these types of adaptations are financial, if not the author then at least by the studio producing it. And I'm not saying that as an insult in any way, just as a fact.

Basically I'm saying I think this will be a financial failure regardless. If it is meant to be one, I'd rather it's one season be in a form I'd enjoy, and not just a budget ripoff of GoT.

Well, it would be a non-start if whoever bought the rights thought it would be a failure. I think its safe to assume that the studio that bought it wants to make as much money as possible. This makes it almost certain that they will be doing live action.

I'd still like to see a TSA animated series though - anime or otherwise, I enjoy both.

Fans of the book are satisfied with GoT? I remember tons of complaints from when I watched it, and I stopped watching it in season 5. I can only assume it's gotten worse.

And I remember (and still see) tons of praise - see how wonderfully subjective things can be?  ;) It is one of the most popular shows on TV in recent history (ratings increase every year), and also one of the most faithful fantasy adaptations in the medium's history. A few vocal critics on Westeros.org and elsewhere doesn't change that. I'm certainly pleased with it overall, but then again I don't hold the source material as flawless.

With GOT ending in two years, it could provide a window of opportunity for another fantasy epic on television, and PON certainly qualifies as that.

This is what I thought. Largely widespread praise. In this case, there's some hope for the book fans to be satisfied with a TSA TV series, but I still stand by what I said above - its not for the book fans. Its going to be, and imo should be, a TV show for people watching TV. Now, certainly, I hope it remains as true as possible to the series. Creative decision will need to be made in order to produce something that is palatable for the TV audience.


Anyways, I hope that its a great financial success, and I honestly wouldn't be terribly disappointed if I didn't like the TV show, because a successful TV series should translate into more books from Bakker.


----------------------------
I think this thread took an odd turn. To try and change the topic to something more constructive:

What would you do to adapt TSA into a TV series? How far would season 1 go? How many seasons total?

What would you take out of TDTCB to make it more filmable, or more palatable to the audience - to keep them hooked from the start?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 07:49:23 pm
The vast majority of people watching Game of Thrones have not read the books.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 29, 2016, 08:10:35 pm
The vast majority of people watching Game of Thrones have not read the books.

Certainly. But a significant minority are readers who continue to watch. (many who became readers after the show started, judging by how book sale figures rose after the show started) Whatever our own anecdotal evidence suggests, ratings and book sales  indicate that people in general are *not* tuning out of the show.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 08:48:45 pm
I know a number of book fans that hate-watch the show. it's a bizarre phenomenon I've only seen afflict nerds. They'll watch things like GoTs or the later seasons of Battlestar Galactica just to complain about the new ways in which it's worse than it used to be.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 29, 2016, 09:11:15 pm
I don't have the book reader demographic numbers, if they even exist, but I will chime in with The Sharmat that GoT has definitely alienated a lot of us. I myself "hate-watched" up through Season 3 because my roommates and friends were into it but I haven't kept up with it since. It's even damaged the reputation of the IP for me a bit as I'm not anticipating ADwD as much as I otherwise would.

There are inherent challenges to adapting the imaginative power of fantasy novels into the limitations of live action television and this is why I'm with Wilshire that the show won't ultimately be for us. The books will always have the most allure for fantasy fans, this is more about reaching a bigger audience, Bakker getting his due and hopefully financing more of his writing. I'll definitely watch and hope for the best but at the same time, be prepared for the worst.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on August 29, 2016, 09:23:44 pm
I too am hate-watching GOT because I don't think I'll read the rest of the books if/when they come out and I want some closure.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 29, 2016, 09:50:07 pm
@Wilshire, you're right I should be careful for what I wish for. I know any adaption will stray somewhat from the books. But, if the could do as good as a job as GoT has done, then I would be 100% satisfied. Arc's will change, things will be left out, as long as the essence remains I would be happy. Sorry, I know many of you guys like anime and the like and I've bee a bit down putting of it......sorry. It's not my thing, and as a niche itself wouldn't help Bakker the way a live TV series would. But, whatever we get, if we do get it, I can't set here and say I wouldn't watch it. Deep down, I know I would.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 09:54:14 pm
I maintain that Lord of the Rings is by far the best book to live action fantasy adaptation, not Game of Thrones.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 29, 2016, 10:05:26 pm
I maintain that Lord of the Rings is by far the best book to live action fantasy adaptation, not Game of Thrones.

Well it isn't weighed down by a crappy Dorne arc . . . .  Seriously GoT is seriously wounded by the quality drop after the third book and the passing around of the idiot ball by otherwise intelligent characters.  The TV series is also hurt by the fact they're outrunning their source material and their writers aren't as good as Martin (as demonstrated by their even worse Dorne arc).  Jackson's adaptation of the Lord of the Rings was pretty damn good.  There's things i didn't like, by my nitpicking powers are superhuman.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 29, 2016, 10:16:01 pm
The TV series added irrelevant stuff more than it removed it. The Dorne arc in the books was far less crappy than the show one from what I saw. It's pretty bewildering since the TV show can afford even less padding than a book series.

Back to PoN: As a compromise on the animation issue, how would folks feel about CG? Think Beowulf.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on August 29, 2016, 10:57:02 pm
I maintain that Lord of the Rings is by far the best book to live action fantasy adaptation, not Game of Thrones.

Well it isn't weighed down by a crappy Dorne arc . . . .  Seriously GoT is seriously wounded by the quality drop after the third book and the passing around of the idiot ball by otherwise intelligent characters.  The TV series is also hurt by the fact they're outrunning their source material and their writers aren't as good as Martin (as demonstrated by their even worse Dorne arc).  Jackson's adaptation of the Lord of the Rings was pretty damn good.  There's things i didn't like, by my nitpicking powers are superhuman.

Oh ye younglings, I guess you weren't on the internet back in 2001-2003, because there was a LOT of very upset tolkien fans.  ;D Tom Bombadil, Arwen, elves at Helms Deep, the ruining of Saruman, and the %#%*-up of the ROTK end battle at the gate ... I don't agree with those complaints, but I'm just scratching the surface of fan outrage.

So why don't we get past the "my anecdotal evidence of GOT love/hate is better that your anecdotal evidence", and concentrate on a PON adaption.  ;)

Back to PoN: As a compromise on the animation issue, how would folks feel about CG? Think Beowulf.

Not much better than animated, really. The biggest issue with an 2D or 3D animated version of PON would be the characters. So many strong characters and their interactions (far more of that than action), and how do you portray for example Kellhus reading faces? In live action you at least have the benefit of skilled actors doing "acting", but in CG or 2D animation, that not really an avenue you can use.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 30, 2016, 12:05:48 am
Arwen and Saruman I felt were valid complaints but fairly minor in the great scheme, and quite minor compared to some GoT changes.

Animated actors can be fantastic if you put the time in. Don't underestimate the skills of animators and voice actors.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on August 30, 2016, 08:58:16 am
Yes, the Dorne arc in the show was worse.  Just because you recognize something as being problematic doesn't mean what you write to replace it will be better.  The show definitely has padding, because they were catching up to the books real fast and the languid pace of certain parts of book four and five weren't going to be good when translated to TV.

I don't have any hate for animation.  It could be done well, but giving the trends in how western tv does entertainment, I don't see it happening.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 30, 2016, 07:40:41 pm
I don't have any hate for animation.  It could be done well, but giving the trends in how western tv does entertainment, I don't see it happening.

I'm sorry as if I sounded like I have this hate for animation, I don't. I have three young kids and I can name off dozen of animated movies I've watched with them and absolutely love. But, if PoN is gonna be animated it's gonna be like that Japanese anime stuff, it's not gonna be Disney quality. Yea, I get the pros, special effects won't be needed and all that. But, the cons far out weigh the pros. Its a niche audience and won't be marketed mainstream. A gritty philosophical mystery that's turned into a cartoon would lose sooooo much of what it could be.

I think HBO has done a great job bringing ASOIAF to life. Sure, some things are different, but that's the case with almost 100% of book to film/TV translations. As long as they could keep the esence of the characters and story I would be happy. And, everyone says. The Inchoroi would have to be cut, I disagree. Other shows have been going progressively edgy over the last decade, and I think people would love the Inchies as the bad guys. I don't see any problem bringing inner dialogue to screen as I've mentioned before, and the won't be a whole lot of special effects that would drive costs through the roof. This series is made for TV and I just can't possibly see it as anime and be succesful.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on August 30, 2016, 07:48:58 pm
You're absolutely right that if the goal is to maximize the audience, live action is the way to go. The Inchoroi reveal alone would have the potential to blow people's minds.

I just think animation has the best chance of being something special that the book readers would want to own and come back to. MSJ I recommend checking out HBO's Spawn if you ever get a chance as it might change your mind. At the very least it's a recommendation that I think you would like it a lot.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 30, 2016, 08:53:32 pm
You're absolutely right that if the goal is to maximize the audience, live action is the way to go. The Inchoroi reveal alone would have the potential to blow people's minds.

I just think animation has the best chance of being something special that the book readers would want to own and come back to. MSJ I recommend checking out HBO's Spawn if you ever get a chance as it might change your mind. At the very least it's a recommendation that I think you would like it a lot.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

For you Bolivar......anything! I will check it out and then post my thoughts.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 31, 2016, 01:54:38 am
They haven't kept the essence of the characters and story.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on August 31, 2016, 11:34:35 am
What station/studio would be best, or most likely to create this PoN series?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 31, 2016, 02:06:29 pm
Netflix, HBO, or Showtime. Pretty much guaranteed one of those three I think.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Somnambulist on August 31, 2016, 03:16:14 pm
Starz might be a player, too.  Spartacus, Outlander, Black Sails, Ash vs. the Evil Dead... mash 'em all up, what do you have?

EDIT:  That was a joke. You don't get PON, but you do get a network willing to do genre, portray complicated, fucked (literally) characters and situations, and prove that they can run with the big kids.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on August 31, 2016, 03:53:00 pm
Right I forgot about Starz.

Honestly I think Showtime and perhaps even Starz might have recently surpassed HBO in quality. Not something I'd have expected to ever say.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on August 31, 2016, 07:17:44 pm
What station/studio would be best, or most likely to create this PoN series?

I would love for HBO or Starz to bring it to life. Tjeyve done really well with these type of series and I've like nearly all of them. I still love a Lord of the Rings trilogy, I think that would be epic and would obviously bring Bakker the most exposure possible. There is nothing in PoN that I don't think adults wouldn't or couldn't handle. It seems the bleak, gritty worlds are becoming main stream. Rape? Not a problem. Race of Lovers? Not a problem. I do think that they would need to make a character of importance or two female though. Maybe Conphas, but I would make Xerius a woman.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Onrack on August 31, 2016, 11:50:47 pm
Showtime has a terrible tendency of dragging it's shows on forever, and constantly interfering creatively. Homeland, Dexter and Weeds are good examples of that.
I'd be surprised if it were Starz, they tend to do things rather cheaply, don't think they have the budget.

HBO, could be. They definitely have the cash, and with Game of Thrones ending soon they may want another gritty Fantasy series to replace it.

It's also possible it could be one of the other, newer network and streaming companies making a big play, tapping that same dark fantasy vein. Netflix for example, or Hulu.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on September 01, 2016, 01:39:43 am
I feel like Man in the High Castle by Amazon was done well enough. Also I want people who did Hannibal to work on it. I feel like their writing and directing team has the right stuff to tackle these themes.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 05:13:16 am
Showtime's version of the Borgias was great and cancelled too soon. I actually thin in a post GoT world the rape stuff is more of a draw than a negative. It's the themes and cast and scope that are a problem. Brace yourself for an entirely new Thunyeri Shieldmaiden character.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on September 01, 2016, 05:45:08 am
Was that the one with Jeremy Irons? Bloody good call, I want him as something too. Old Moe perhaps or one of the Scarlet Spires.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 01, 2016, 06:09:28 am
Yeah the Jeremy Irons one. It was great. Much better than the Netflix version. I was disappointed it was cancelled. Jeremy Irons would be a fantastic Eli.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Madness on September 01, 2016, 02:13:48 pm
Lol - I'm not around for a week and there are like... whole threads at multiple pages that I've never read :o. Strange times. Apologies for the post size:

I'm not confident in Bakker's (or his agent's) contract negotiating skills, based on how botched his Overlook books have been through the years, and how terrible the rollout of TGO has been in Canada (still not in the shelves as of this posting, even though its been out for 3 months).

Still haven't seen it on a shelf... in Canada. Thankfully, I just drove all the way to Ohio with Camlost just to get a copy ;).

- How do you present Kellhus POV? With voice-overs? Sherlock-esque text overlays? Just great acting?

The bold, hopefully ;). And skillful writing, maybe?

Most rights deals involve some money changing hands just for sitting on the rights.  So Scott got paid even if they end up doing nothing with it.  Now it won't be big Hollywood money (that might happen if they make a series and it is successful), but it will be real money.  A lot of these things end up never getting made, so don't get your hopes up yet, but this is an entry in the plus column on whether or not Scott can continue to be full time writer and support his family.  Even if no series comes of this, it is a good thing.

I'd almost prefer if he was just paid for options over and over again indefinitely.

However money in Bakker pocket means easier life finishing the novels, so it does have an upside.

+1

Prince of Nothing just doesn't have the soapy elements required, unless they drastically re-write this stuff.

The first time I tried reading ASOIAF, I put it down in the middle of ASOS because I felt it was basically a soap-opera in a fantasy setting and I was having none of it (I've since decided I want to try again at some point).

No writing it properly is going to be a concern.

+1

Given the long scope of the story, I think three 10-episode seasons on something like HBO (or even Netflix) would be perfect to cover the PON trilogy.

You got any thoughts on pacing? TDTCB especially doesn't lend itself well to being broken up in to ten episodic arcs but also TTT doesn't even seem like a full season. You could really play up the Consult aggression against Kellhus in TTT, utilize more on-screen time with the Synthese and Cnaiur, maybe, maybe (!), make the battle at Joktha a climatic mid-season battle (and fucking Joktha... is like the Vietnam of Earwa).

Cartoons only have to be for children as long as people expect cartoons to be for children. There are counter examples. Despite being based on a comic book, HBO's animated Spawn was not only great, it's something most children should probably never be allowed to watch.

+1

Bolivar brings up Spawn later and it's a damn, damn shame that it seems to be one of the only examples of NA adult animation (though, Sausage Party seems to be opening eyes to the possibility again).

TSA will never be mainstream without losing everything that makes it good in the first place.

I think there's room to be authentic to the story.

If not, then more to my point - TV/Film adaptations are NOT for the book fans.

Yeap, +1.

I think this thread took an odd turn. To try and change the topic to something more constructive:

What would you do to adapt TSA into a TV series? How far would season 1 go? How many seasons total?

What would you take out of TDTCB to make it more filmable, or more palatable to the audience - to keep them hooked from the start?

You tried ;).

Back to PoN: As a compromise on the animation issue, how would folks feel about CG? Think Beowulf.

Never even watched it because I thought the CG overlay was awful.

I just think animation has the best chance of being something special that the book readers would want to own and come back to. MSJ I recommend checking out HBO's Spawn if you ever get a chance as it might change your mind. At the very least it's a recommendation that I think you would like it a lot.

+1

Starz might be a player, too.  Spartacus, Outlander, Black Sails, Ash vs. the Evil Dead... mash 'em all up, what do you have?

EDIT:  That was a joke. You don't get PON, but you do get a network willing to do genre, portray complicated, fucked (literally) characters and situations, and prove that they can run with the big kids.

Lol - I haven't watched any of the newest season of Black Sails or any (!!) of Ash vs. the Evil Dead, though I followed io9's review series. I need to take that time.

I feel like Man in the High Castle by Amazon was done well enough. Also I want people who did Hannibal to work on it. I feel like their writing and directing team has the right stuff to tackle these themes.

Damn, this is another one I've been meaning to watch. Was it good, JR?

Yeah the Jeremy Irons one. It was great. Much better than the Netflix version. I was disappointed it was cancelled. Jeremy Irons would be a fantastic Eli.

I'm almost positive he was brought up in the Film thread as Eleazarus or Iyokus.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on September 03, 2016, 10:10:19 am
The plot is a bit meandering, but I have always been a sucker for alt-historical settings. Even so, some of the actors are terrific and I like what the show tries do, show the implications of different courses history could have taken.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 03, 2016, 01:10:42 pm
Yeah the Jeremy Irons one. It was great. Much better than the Netflix version. I was disappointed it was cancelled. Jeremy Irons would be a fantastic Eli.

My mental picture of Eli is actually pretty much Jeremy Irons already.  I can already hear "Fucking Chanv addicts.  What does an addict know of hope?" in Iron's voice.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 04, 2016, 05:17:25 am
The plot is a bit meandering, but I have always been a sucker for alt-historical settings. Even so, some of the actors are terrific and I like what the show tries do, show the implications of different courses history could have taken.

I'm also a fan of "The Man in the High Castle"... The final episode was a real  :o , so I'm eagerly anticipating season 2.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Frail on September 07, 2016, 01:24:38 am
Im a little late to this party but fuck if this didnt make my day. I feel like any of the big production shows could pull off the series with some good direction. As some have mentioned, this would have to be a different type of tv show.

It would be interesting to storyboard out the first episode so to speak. In my mind the prologue would have no music, and be edited without much cinematic flair, this would fit Kellhus's POV well too. After Kellhus flees the Nonmen, it would lead into the title sequence, then into Achamians first scene. I think a solid way to end the episode would show Geshrunni beaten by the fat man / cut to Achamian leaving Atyersus then / cut back to Gehrunni being dragged through the mud. "Something impossibly ancient," "Inconceivably beautiful." And that whole fun dialogue.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on September 07, 2016, 02:05:50 am
Personally I'd want the entire first episode about the prologue 2000 years ago. But that is extremely unlikely.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on September 07, 2016, 02:15:21 am
Have nothing to add really. Just want to reiterate from ye old film threads that my perfect casting for Saubon would be Daniel Craig, and Ron Perlman voicing Aurang, which would just be next level.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 07, 2016, 08:46:48 pm
I think the TV show will have to bury the consult, keep them off screen even more so than the books.

There is just too much to cover in a couple episodes and spending one of them with Akka in Carythusal seems a waste of time. It's a wasted set if nothing else, and since I doubt there is a massive budget for this project, cost is an important factor.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 07, 2016, 10:42:20 pm
If the TV show buries the Consult we might as well bury the TV show. No point.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Srancy on September 07, 2016, 11:29:32 pm
Bakker lost the number sticks - his perfect cast is too old for this now.

Arnold - Kellhus
Jason Alexander - Akka
Robert Duvall - Saubon
Tom Cruise - Conphas
Sylvester Stallons - Cnaiur
Morgan Freeman - Meppa
Catherine Zeta Jones - Esmenet
Nicholas Cage - Nansur Emperor
Eliazaras - Jerry Stiller

Tell me this wouldn't sell like hotcakes, I dare you.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Bolivar on September 08, 2016, 02:08:02 am
Guys, how do you feel about casting and accents? I always felt like Game of Thrones should have had American actors with American accents since it's fundamentally an American series written with American sensibilities. I think it would be refreshing if we had a modern fantasy series without the British accents for once.

Jason Alexander - Akka

!!!

Srancy your picks are amazing but this is an "oh shit" moment!
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 08, 2016, 03:30:07 am
"I got rejected by a prostitute. A whore rejected me! A woman with no afterlife and no morals told me I wasn't her type. Apparently the harlot likes a taller guy!"
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Madness on September 08, 2016, 01:32:46 pm
Guys, how do you feel about casting and accents? I always felt like Game of Thrones should have had American actors with American accents since it's fundamentally an American series written with American sensibilities. I think it would be refreshing if we had a modern fantasy series without the British accents for once.

Jason Alexander - Akka

!!!

Srancy your picks are amazing but this is an "oh shit" moment!

Srancy is someone who can only out-think themselves (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=901.msg7049#msg7049).

"I got rejected by a prostitute. A whore rejected me! A woman with no afterlife and no morals told me I wasn't her type. Apparently the harlot likes a taller guy!"

Lmao.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Somnambulist on September 08, 2016, 02:08:27 pm
"I got rejected by a prostitute. A whore rejected me! A woman with no afterlife and no morals told me I wasn't her type. Apparently the harlot likes a taller guy!"

Gold.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Srancy on September 08, 2016, 05:36:17 pm
One must always strive for perfection, Madness!
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 09, 2016, 05:19:57 am
I think the TV show will have to bury the consult, keep them off screen even more so than the books.

There is just too much to cover in a couple episodes and spending one of them with Akka in Carythusal seems a waste of time. It's a wasted set if nothing else, and since I doubt there is a massive budget for this project, cost is an important factor.

The Consult won't get buried.  They're the best of all things:  Something that can be talked about, a sinister presence with real influence and power but that is unseen.  Also Carythusal won't be a waste of time or budget.  Practically speaking, Suma, Momen, and Carythusal are all Ketyai majority cities in the same climate range and a lot of shared cultural material.  They can all be shot in the same location/group of sets.  Carythusal sets up a lot of background material (the Schools, the Holy War, Chorae, the Scarlet Spires in particular) and the Skin Spies/Consult.   All you need is a few backstreets and a tavern set in the same location you're shooting Suma and Momen with a shot or two of the Spires itself added in.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 09, 2016, 02:39:57 pm
I guess that's true, the major cities of the three seas will be very similar looking. But, then there is a need to add some travel period from Carythusal to Sumna, with the stop at Atyersus. Maybe have Atyersus/Quorum be a dream sequence, using it as a way to get an early intro into sorcery.
Having something mysterious like Geshrunni being murdered is a pretty good hookfor the first episode.

If you just start in Sumna, it gets rid of the need for that. Then you can conceivably just start in Sumna with Esmi and Inrau kind of already in the picture. I just dont think there will be time to be flashing around to all these different places - it'll just confuse viewers don't you think?

Kell in the mountains, then some random trapper, then these barbarians, then several different cities, schools, Quorum, some prostitute, a priest, then to another city following an emperor and his retinue, it all seems like too much. Mostly, I should add, because TDTCB is unusual compared to the rest of the story. I think people would be pissed if, for all of the first season it looks like you're getting into a medieval political intrigue/drama, that then for the rest of the show is a adventure/war story.

If you start out and have season one, two, and three each be their own book, it might as well be 3 different shows, not to mention TTT itself probably isn't long enough to be a whole 8-10 episode season.

I'm thinking the show would be better served to have the world building of TDTCB sort of chopped up and spread throughout, taking less time to get to the holy war moving... But I don't watch a lot of TV, and what I do watch is nothing like this. Any suggestions on a show that was done well with the same scale as TSA? Maybe a season for  TDTCB is plenty of time, I just worry about the cohesion of the story not working well in TV format the way its written in the book.

That post just kind of became a steam of conscious. FYI, I don't know shit about TV, so please enlighten me if what I saying doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 11, 2016, 12:05:02 am
Relevant post from lev grossman regarding the transformation of his trillogy to TV.

http://levgrossman.com/2015/12/a-magicians-fans-guide-to-watching-the-magicians/
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Srancy on September 13, 2016, 01:26:09 pm
'I got over it' means 'I deposited the check'

It's a not a bad thing, just don't see a reason why not to acknowledge it.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 13, 2016, 01:39:55 pm
He seemed at peace with it. May or may not have been the check, it depends on what his goals were I think.

If making money is the goal, then who cares about the artistic vision in the end.
If fame is the goal, then a popular series that diverges from the story would be better than an unpopular series that stays true.

However, if he wanted the story to be told as he told it, and didn't care for money, fame, etc, then its likely he would never come to terms with how it was produced - and he probably wouldn't have sold the rights to the show in a way that forced him to give up control. Which likely means that the rights would have never been sold to begin with.

I don't think its a cut and dry as 'I deposited the check', though the odds that that isn't a major part of it seems low (money is a big motivator to me, I don't understand those for whom it is not). Additionally, I think there is probably some social baggage surrounding 'selling out' that might make people feel like its somehow wrong. I don't get that, either, so maybe I'm way off. Everyone has a price, eh?

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 13, 2016, 08:05:15 pm
A person is pretty complicated. All of those interests coexist at the same time and at least at the point of that post were at an acceptable confluence for him. Or he was just lying for the check. Either/or.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on September 14, 2016, 02:52:30 am
Does make me wonder if there'd be a point where he'd put his foot down, or whether it was all popcorn to him and hey, as long as the cheque doesn't bounce then there's no change that'll be a problem (it's just popcorn after all)...

What was he trying to get at with the series?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 14, 2016, 05:09:55 pm
'I got over it' means 'I deposited the check'

It's a not a bad thing, just don't see a reason why not to acknowledge it.

It is a bit tiring sometimes to have people re-interpret comments to fit their ideas. "He said X but obviously means Y". No. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as Freud would say.  ;D

There will be changes in an adaption. It is a different medium, with different strengths and weaknesses. Some authors are more excited about it than others, and see it as an opportunity to tweak the story for an interesting effect. Others chafe at any changes to their "baby".

(One example of the former: Dan Simmons once mentioned that he wrote as short treatment/adaption of his own Hyperion and Endymion books for a potential movie deal, and he made MAJOR changes, mashing/mixing events and characters from all 4 books together into one script that was very different)  :o

But two things are guaranteed:
1. The written version won't disappear, it will always be there.
2. There will be vocal fans who think that the story and themes are ruined because minor detail Z is not included or changed.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Srancy on September 14, 2016, 05:17:09 pm
A cigar is never just a cigar - isn't the whole issue someone else is reinterpreting his own ideas, in the first place?

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 14, 2016, 09:38:08 pm
A cigar is never just a cigar - isn't the whole issue someone else is reinterpreting his own ideas, in the first place?

Again you are putting words in his mouth. He is not you.

As for reinterpreting ideas, that may be an issue for some authors, but not all. After all, ideas are always reinterpreted by the sheer act of transfer, even by a basic reading. If not, how do you explain 95% of the posts on this forum, where we discuss, argue, and interpret what Bakker actually means with his writings? The idea that we get a whole set of ideas and concept just info-dumped directly into our brain with no loss of meaning or context is just false.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 14, 2016, 10:28:53 pm
But two things are guaranteed:
1. The written version won't disappear, it will always be there.
2. There will be vocal fans who think that the story and themes are ruined because minor detail Z is not included or changed.
And sometimes the people in #2 are completely right because Z wasn't actually a minor detail.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 14, 2016, 11:39:53 pm
I feel as though I would be in the Popcorn camp as Callan described, but as I never have been in the situation, it's rather hard for me to say.


I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on September 15, 2016, 01:11:19 am
I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.

I would want them to folow the books to a T. I see no reason why the couldn't. Not a ton of special effects. I see zero problems with conveying innner dialogue, seen it done well I many shows, Preacher is a good example. I think the way TV is trending, the more gruesome, hard to take parts wouldn't have to be cut. Such as rape and all. The prologue to TDTCB, if it would stay true to the books, would give the audience a great look at how gritty the series would be. Just like the books, having Kellhus betrayed not as the "good guy" that you're supposed to root for would be the hardest part. I don't see where much would have to change from books to film. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Doubt on September 15, 2016, 02:27:36 am
How you would order it so that the viewer isn't confused af by this while apocalypse and suddenly we're 2000 years on is more of a concern. Things may change as such. Carythusal would not make an appearance as an example, not that anyone would miss that. Many character relationships could change for many reasons. They'll get the gist of the story for sure.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 15, 2016, 04:17:01 am
I find it amusing that it seems people are more interested at discussing the idea of tv adaptions rather than specifics of what they'd like to see in a PoN adaption, storyboarding, etc.

That's because the whenever changes are brought up, the 'literalist' brigade immediately descend on the discussion steering it that way. They are like the Scylvendi, unable to see infinite tracks in the steppe,  :D so many ways to get to the same destination.

But since you asked, I will write up some ideas... Although I know exactly what response this will get from some quarters.

Changes I would make to make a PoN adaption more approachable for a wider audience: (The first book is the stumbling block to get over for new readers, we all know this)

That's just off the top of my head.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: H on September 15, 2016, 11:32:00 am
If you are going to change anything, I think the Prologue is absolutely the wrong place to do it.  It is quite possibly (and in my mind, is definitely) the best chapter in any of the books.  You incorporate small bits from the "flashback" scene that opens it into Kellhus' journey out of Ishual.

How do you film it?

Opens with a pull back of Ishual's curtain wall, sprawling, ornate, but clearly secreted away in the glaciers and abandoned.  Cut to Anasûrimbor Ganrelka II's party, haggard (be sure to show the ornate five Knights of Trysë, close by Ganrelka clearly worried for his safety);  the wind howls, the look on their faces says "was that the wind, or a horn?"  They look ahead to Ishual in the distance.  Cut to Ganrelka is a bed, clearly dying of plague, cut to the distraught faces of those who were in the party shown before, as tears stream down his face.  Cut to a cold morning, foggy, his bier set up to be lit in the pyre.  Show wolves eyes gleaming in the firelight.  Show the rest of the party somber, no singing, just looking down, then back to the walls of Ishual, numerous sentries posted, intent on the horizon.

Cut to Ganrelka’s concubine and her daughter showing the same signs of sickness.  Show bodies being heaped up, show the same place, same sentries, only 1/4 the number now.  Show one of the few remaining begins to cough.  Cut to the five Knights of Trysë in beds, dying of the plague at various stages, from dead to near dead.  Cut to the Grand Vizier "his golden robes stained bloody by his bowel, lay sprawled across his sorcerous texts."  Cut to Ganrelka’s uncle swinging from the rope he hanged himself with.  Cut to The Queen, in a bed covering in blood, flies buzz yet she simply stares out, blankly, to a tapestry of the Anasûrimbor coat-of-arms.  Pan out to show Ganrelka’s bastard son looking in on her, a blank and lost look, but not sad, she isn't his mother and his father is already gone.

Cut to the boy searching the halls.  Emtpy rooms, bodies in various states of decay.  Then, he finds the Bardic Priest and focus on his strange look.  Show the boy fleeing.  Show the Bardic Priest looking for him, calling to him.  Cut to him finding him, huddled in a corner, "He caressed first his cheek and then his thigh. “Forgive me,” he muttered over and over, but tears fell only from his blind eye. “There are no crimes,” he mumbled afterward, “when no one is left alive.”"

Cut to the same wall from before, no sentries now, one dead and rotting in the background.  The Bardic Priest, drunk, stumbling after the boy.  Then, as he nears the walls edge, the boy is behind him.  A stone-faced look and a push.  Show the broken body of the Bardic Priest far below.

Cut to the same wall, clearly winter has come in force, show snow on the trees, ice covers the walls.  The boy sits, in his father's furs, blood and all, and listens as wolves bey, he softly sings "mother’s songs" while Gnawing on hardtack.  Cut to him "fly[ing] through the courtyards, answering the wolves with Kûniüric war cries, brandishing weapons that staggered him with their weight. And once in a while, his eyes wide with hope and superstitious dread, he would poke the dead with his father’s sword."

Cut to the end of winter, show the thawing by the treetops, from that same wall again.  The boy no longer sit in furs.  The sun is rising and the boy is started to hear voices from down below.  Show the Dunyain refugees, "fearsome—feral, like a wolf people."  The boy runs.  Cut to them fashioning ropes and climbing the walls of Ishual.  Cut to them finding the boy, huddled in the midst of the now bone dry corpses with his father sword.  “We are Dûnyain, child. What reason could you have to fear us?” But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!” The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.” For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled."

Cut to Dûnyain scrubbing the walls, chiseling off the runes, burning the sorcerers books, etc.  Pan out, far and wide, show the remoteness of Ishual, how hard it would be to see from far.  Words, 2,000 years later, and the "present" date.

A hazy vision of Shimeh, clearly a dream, the sounds of battle distant and muted.  A cut to each dreamer, asleep, and back to aspects of the dream.  Visions of dead near a sea, a desert oasis, etc.  A serpent voice, “Send to me my son.”  Show each awaken, startled.

Cut to them meating in the darkness of Thousand Thousand Halls.  They look, wearily to each other, "This must end."



And so on.  It wouldn't be hard and I think it would make for a great opening to the show.  Lots there for water cooler talk the next day.  Plenty more to connect it to the next part, with Kellhus walking from Ishual, in the same path that Ganrelka had walk to it.  Kellhus' look back, show that same wall, where the boy had always been, to show the Pragma who would kill themselves.  It would all come together, I'm not even talented but the source material is so good it easy to fashion things out of it.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 15, 2016, 04:34:56 pm
I'm going to have to disagree on that prologue... Yes, it is well written, but is so detached from the rest of the story. You learn nothing of the Dunyain. Nothing real about the setting or first apocalypse. None of the characters show up later, the kid does not turn out to be anyone important. (Unless Bakker is planning some real out-of-left-field reveal 6 books later) It is more like a short story set in the same universe than an actual part of the main plot.

So while the chapter is atmospheric, it is just fat. And fat needs to be trimmed so we spend more time on characters that will matter going forward. Every scene, every second is valuable currency that must be spent very thriftily. Anything in the story that does not directly impact the main characters needs to be on the chopping block, that is basic screenwriting.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 15, 2016, 08:48:26 pm
Hell yeah. Thanks for those posts! This is what I was hoping for :) . Hope I'll have more time to think and react to this stuff later. For now, Titan, I like what you're thinking - can't have an entire season of political intrigue drama and then a war story for 5 more books.

Maybe move Kellhus' discovery even farther, by Cnaiur. You still get the battle (can do Cnaiur-predictive battle scene flashes as he approaches, gives a background of the sranc and such). Bonus, cut out the beginning stuff that is just confusing for a 1 hour episode. Loosely combine Leweth with some Scylvendi caretaker.

Beef up Esmi and Serwe to be less helpless prostitute/slave. We have at least one example of a powerful women, the empress, right from the start. No need to have the long transition for Esmi.

Combine Momemn and Sumna. Basically the same place, and through TGO no real reason to have them separate. Simplifies things.



Overall, TDTCB needs to be simplified into fewer places, fewer factions, fewer characters, and reduce the build up to keep people interested. Backstory and such can be spliced in throughout
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 15, 2016, 09:20:26 pm
The prologue sets the theme and tone while hooking the reader. It's not for an exposition dump.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 15, 2016, 09:41:58 pm
The prologue sets the theme and tone while hooking the reader. It's not for an exposition dump.

What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

It does give a fair preview of the *tone* of the book, but I don't think it is a very effective hook. There's lots of accounts from here and elsewhere of people reading a significant part into TDTCB and giving up.

I was predisposed to liking this kind of stuff, but I wasn't hooked until Kellhus fought the non-man, and the book doesn't fire on all cylinders until Cnaiur finds Kellhus.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 15, 2016, 09:51:24 pm
What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

TDTCB has a lot of problems and would need major re-editing, cuts, and changes. But I don't think he short Prologue is one of the issues.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on September 15, 2016, 10:18:13 pm
Quote
"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

Yeah, someone once pointed out that's like probably a reference to the whole 144,000 thing.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2016, 01:17:19 am
What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

TDTCB has a lot of problems and would need major re-editing, cuts, and changes. But I don't think he short Prologue is one of the issues.
I could see it go either way. I'm assuming its important to impress that this is the SECOND apocalypse, and the Ishual is definitely an important piece of that. Plenty castles throughout the series, so that wouldnt be a waste. It might be difficult to shoehorn the information in the prologue into another point, since there is no direct tie to that time and place later on and inserting it elsewhere would be jarring.

OTOH, from a direct information standpoint, anything could be fit into one of Akka's dreams, or his conversations with the Mandate. Those themes, other than those explicitly dealing with the Dunyain, wouldn't be too hard to place. For the dunyain, there will be several points of flashbacks for Kellhus where that stuff could be added in.

I'm worried about the setting being too complex, but its difficult to remove that complexity without ruining the story.


Maybe for me, for this one scene, it boils down to: how important is the origin story of the Dunyain? There are few chances to fit that in other than the prologue, and with that you can add in the Anasurimbor, which is also really important imo. Without that, the moment of Akka hearing Kellhus' name for the first time is totally lost on the watcher.

I think I'm with TS for this one. The prologue is a good opportunity. I think it should stay in some form. Maybe allow for a bit more exposition on the consult or the first apocalypse to better hook the viewers?
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2016, 01:37:30 am
H, some unsolicited comments ;) :

Keeping in mind that a season would be at best 10x 60minute episodes, that seems like a large chunk of time, maybe 10-20 minutes of the first episode? Considering the amount of material that will likely have to be removed from TDTCB, I'm not sure it can afford to spend that much time there.

That said, that's some serious vision you've got there. I really liked that. There is so much source material to take from, especially for those of us that have been rattling this around in our heads for years and years.

I might say that the whole thing should be shot centered around the bastard-Anasurimbor. Following him as he muddles through, listening to adults half-heard conversations, peering into rooms finding the bodies, etc.

The bardic priest seems like someone I'd cut out. His interaction with the boy does set some precedent and tone, but I'm not sure thats a great place to begin the story.

Btw, I agree that the whole prologue chapter was one of my favorites for a long time my first read through. However, I think it takes up too much time for Kellhus/Dunyain that can be spliced in elsewhere. First apocalypse Ishual is a yes for me, present day Ishual, Kellhus in the woods, maybe even Leweth, I think could be cut without too much ill affect. Trying to triage is hard :/



I like the idea of starting Akka's story with his dream. Maybe even cutting from "2000 years later" into a dream sequence, and have Akka wake up after a few seconds. Maybe that's just more confusion and jarring, but that might help tie in what Achamian is dreaming of (bonus, then the watcher isn't sure if the prologue is real or not?) ... Though that could probably easily be explained with him waking up in Esmi's room "the dreams, Akka?" etc etc.

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: H on September 16, 2016, 10:51:43 am
H, some unsolicited comments ;) :

Keeping in mind that a season would be at best 10x 60minute episodes, that seems like a large chunk of time, maybe 10-20 minutes of the first episode? Considering the amount of material that will likely have to be removed from TDTCB, I'm not sure it can afford to spend that much time there.

Oh, I am sure it is 100% not film-able as written.  Nor as I had written it.  There is no way to fit it all in there, which is really a shame, because you end up with a derivative work, which is questionably as good.  You probably can't give everything the treatment it deserves (or requires).  It just my nature for nearly everything I do to be sprawling, for better or (usually) worse.  I know that isn't going to make a widely popular show though.

That said, that's some serious vision you've got there. I really liked that. There is so much source material to take from, especially for those of us that have been rattling this around in our heads for years and years.

I might say that the whole thing should be shot centered around the bastard-Anasurimbor. Following him as he muddles through, listening to adults half-heard conversations, peering into rooms finding the bodies, etc.

Indeed, had I spent more than 2 minutes thinking where I was going I think that would have been more clear from the get-go, rather than how I had it suddenly come in from his perspective half-way through (because that's when I realized it would make more sense).  I'm certainly not a competent screenwriter, I'm not even a competent post writer really, but I think it's a somewhat valid proof-of-concept (however unfeasible in length it is).

The bardic priest seems like someone I'd cut out. His interaction with the boy does set some precedent and tone, but I'm not sure thats a great place to begin the story.

I like keeping him in there, because it creates a dichotomy between the Dunyain who help the boy and he, who exploits him.

Btw, I agree that the whole prologue chapter was one of my favorites for a long time my first read through. However, I think it takes up too much time for Kellhus/Dunyain that can be spliced in elsewhere. First apocalypse Ishual is a yes for me, present day Ishual, Kellhus in the woods, maybe even Leweth, I think could be cut without too much ill affect. Trying to triage is hard :/

I would still think you need to show the dreams of Shimeh though, right?  Again, my vision of a film version is so sprawling considering pacing and running length is basically anathema to me.  This is why I am not even a competent writer.

I like the idea of starting Akka's story with his dream. Maybe even cutting from "2000 years later" into a dream sequence, and have Akka wake up after a few seconds. Maybe that's just more confusion and jarring, but that might help tie in what Achamian is dreaming of (bonus, then the watcher isn't sure if the prologue is real or not?) ... Though that could probably easily be explained with him waking up in Esmi's room "the dreams, Akka?" etc etc.

Yeah, that could be a good segue.  If you begin the show with Akka though, how do we know who Kellhus is?  Or why he is important?

I guess one method would be to cut the prologue all-together, start with Akka.  Only introduce Kellhus when he meets Cnaiur, and show his journey through flashbacks, but I feel like that would be a awful large infodump.  Plausible though.

In the book we know that the Anasûrimbor line is old.  We know it has been hiding for 2,000 years.  We know Kellhus is seemingly of that line.  This is why I like keeping the Prologue in. I have no doubt my vision is not reasonable though.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 16, 2016, 07:44:47 pm
The info about Anasurimbor is a big loss. I'm weary of of too many flashbacks as well. To he successful it needs to be a complete story whithin the confines of the show, and thats just going to be tough 
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 16, 2016, 09:06:21 pm
Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on September 16, 2016, 09:09:31 pm
Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.

I think you're right, but that would suck. Serwe is the CIPHER.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 16, 2016, 10:17:15 pm
Esmenet and Serwë will be condensed into a single character and Kellhus will hang on the Circumfix alone if this show makes it that far. Calling it.

I think you're right, but that would suck. Serwe is the CIPHER.

Cipher for what, though? Even though Bakker has stated that she is important, here we are 5 books later, we still have no idea what she is the cipher for.

I think she could be merged with Esmenet, but I wouldn't personally do it. There are precious few female characters in PoN to begin with.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 16, 2016, 11:07:25 pm
What theme does it set? I'm honestly curious...

"Forgive me. There are no crimes when no one is left alive."

"We are Dunyain, child. Why would you fear us?"

"Because where there are men, there are crimes."

"There are only crimes when men are deceived"

Thanks for that, you do have a point... And reading those lines after reading the books does make them seem important. But I never personally liked how those lines were said by the characters, it didn't make much sense in the actual prologue.

I agree with people that the first apocalypse needs to be emphasized in *some kind* of prologue. BUT... The book 1 prologue tells us really nothing about the first apocalypse, which is why it really doesn't work for me.

Instead of the existing prologue which characters that we will actually see again, I would take advantage of the visual medium and create something more spectacular for an opening/intro/prologue. How about this:
1. Quick explanation of Earwa shared by two races Non-men and Men. (Non-men very much shown as Prometheus alien style creatures)
2. Spectacular shot of the Inchoroi ship entering the atmosphere and impacting the ground, massive shockwave
3. Brief view of the battle of Mengedda, the No-God hovering over the battlefield - "WHAT AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE?"
4. Another cut to Celmomas dying in Akka's arms, and the prophesy uttered... "An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world"
5. Akka wakes up from his dream. Esmenet comforts him, and we get a quick explanation that this wasn't just a dream... This actually happened. And now seems like it will happen again.

I think something like this will definitely grab the attention of people... Those who just expect something like LOTR and GOT will go "wizards *AND* aliens!?!?!"  :o

All of these scenes will be expanded on in future episodes and Akka dreams. One could even do something interesting and start *every* episode with an Akka dream, gradually revealing more and more.

As far as the episode structure, I think one could do something very interesting, and do have character specific episodes - at least to begin with. Like this:
Episode 1. Kellhus - Start with him leaving Ishual on his long journey. Intercut with Moenghus dreams calling him to Shimeh. He finds Leweth, manipulates him, and then they are attacked by Sranc and the erratic. End on cliffhanger.
Episode 2. Akka - Our intro to the scholastic worlds, Esmenet, and Inrithi and Nansur politics. Akka meets with informant (in Monemn), he is sent to investigate Maithanet, recruits Inrau. Holy war is declared. End on Inrau being killed by the Consult.
Episode 3. Cnaiur - Cnaiur is getting ready for the battle of Kiyuth, but flashes back to him meeting Moenghus and that trauma, how he bacame chieftain. Battle starts (our first view of real sorcery power in battle), Cnaiur escapes by use of trinket (our first introduction to that) and heads home. But as he rides by his fathers grave, he finds... Kellhus. Cliffhanger.  ;D
Episode 4. Kellhus & Cnaiur - Kellhus manipulates Cnaiur to ride with him to the three seas. They ride across the steppe and have many excellent conversations. They are attacked by other Scylvendi, and rescue Serwe.

And so on...
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on September 17, 2016, 01:49:10 am
Cipher for what, though? Even though Bakker has stated that she is important, here we are 5 books later, we still have no idea what she is the cipher for.

I think she could be merged with Esmenet, but I wouldn't personally do it. There are precious few female characters in PoN to begin with.

I basically said it because I'd hate to see her cut. Cipher, well, I think it goes into how she is so innocently and without regard, believes in Kellhus. Nothing can change Morality on Earwa, it's set in stone. It doesn't mean, imo, that belief can't shape reality though. Remember, she was the first to see the haloes and basically convinced Kellhus that he was holy. She made others see the haloes also. We find out through Koringhus and the JE that innocence, ignorance and surrender are holy, and Serwe was all of those things.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Hirtius/Pansa on September 17, 2016, 02:35:59 am
Without Serwe no one tells Kellhus and Cnaiur about the Holy War. No one tells them about the Holy War, Kellhus kills Cnaiur and makes a beeline for Kian. Kellhus is killed outright because he's a Norsirai. Serwe is critical to Kellhus's anagnorisis in the first book and completely alters his plans.

That's only from a plotting standpoint, nevermind thematic content.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: MSJ on September 17, 2016, 03:34:15 am
Without Serwe no one tells Kellhus and Cnaiur about the Holy War. No one tells them about the Holy War, Kellhus kills Cnaiur and makes a beeline for Kian. Kellhus is killed outright because he's a Norsirai. Serwe is critical to Kellhus's anagnorisis in the first book and completely alters his plans.

That's only from a plotting standpoint, nevermind thematic content.

Excellent points as always, HP! :)
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: The Sharmat on September 18, 2016, 05:07:58 pm
Without Serwe no one tells Kellhus and Cnaiur about the Holy War. No one tells them about the Holy War, Kellhus kills Cnaiur and makes a beeline for Kian. Kellhus is killed outright because he's a Norsirai. Serwe is critical to Kellhus's anagnorisis in the first book and completely alters his plans.

That's only from a plotting standpoint, nevermind thematic content.
Esmenet is taken captive by the Scylvendi raiding party on the way to Momemn from Shimeh. She does all that stuff. Don't think the geography can't or won't be fudged.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 18, 2016, 10:04:43 pm
I hope they keep her because there are only two women in the story.  However, the parts that she plays can be combined with other characters.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: gtownwr on September 19, 2016, 09:12:40 pm
IIt's also likely that we will see more of the "armored in lacquered human finger nails sranc" and fewer of the "sporting huge erections sranc".

I LOL'd at this.  :)
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on September 20, 2016, 12:09:48 am
Yep, they're gunna have trouble with showing wangs at all, let alone erect ones. I guess it'd be ground breaking, though I'm not sure I can place my finger on who's ground it'd break. Sure, when a show actually shows a nude male for once (instead of just nude females), I'm like 'Ho, they actually did it!' I'm a little shocked, but it's hardly super important by itself. I'd think actually showing erect penises actually has the problem of being kind of hilariously ridiculous! Though I guess the rape will kill that humor soon enough.

Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Titan on September 20, 2016, 12:18:39 am
Yep, they're gunna have trouble with showing wangs at all, let alone erect ones. I guess it'd be ground breaking, though I'm not sure I can place my finger on who's ground it'd break. Sure, when a show actually shows a nude male for once (instead of just nude females), I'm like 'Ho, they actually did it!' I'm a little shocked, but it's hardly super important by itself. I'd think actually showing erect penises actually has the problem of being kind of hilariously ridiculous! Though I guess the rape will kill that humor soon enough.

Yep, that's going to be an issue. One way to approach it would be that the Sranc and Inchoroi are more into pain and violence, and that it gives them pleasure to inflict pain. (but not so much sexual pleasure which allows the "rapy-ness" to be deemphasized)

Seeing lots of Sranc running around with erect phalluses is just going to look ridiculous, even ignoring the rape aspect. Have them simply get enjoyment from inflicting pain instead.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: JRControl on September 20, 2016, 08:57:42 am
I hope Aurang's wang is Mandingo sized. It would bring a lot to the series I feel.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Callan S. on September 20, 2016, 09:39:54 am
Few, I can imagine the producer meetings on this one. The many of them. But I have to weigh in in favour of the wangs.

I hope Aurang's wang is Mandingo sized. It would bring a lot to the series I feel.
“Plainly,” Titirga replied, frowning at the creature’s groin.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Cynical Cat on September 25, 2016, 01:21:29 pm
It would be awesome to see the same actress playing sweet, long suffering Serwe then go one to play the skin-spy that imitates and watch her cut through Nansur like a hot knife through butter.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Frail on September 25, 2016, 06:54:21 pm
You can have erect phalluses as long as they are monstrous or deformed for the Sranc i think, and as long as the camera doesnt dwell on them, because its just part of who they are.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on September 25, 2016, 08:02:13 pm
It would be awesome to see the same actress playing sweet, long suffering Serwe then go one to play the skin-spy that imitates and watch her cut through Nansur like a hot knife through butter.

That would be pretty awesome. Skin-spies existing throughout the show and their 'bringing back' dead characters will be pretty awesome to see on screen.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on April 13, 2017, 06:39:31 pm
I've asked, I believe, twice now on his blog and during the AMA that Bakker did. No response.

I figure that either means the deal is so great that its gotta be kept totally secret per contractual NDAs with powerful production companies - or that it fell through entirely and he's not interesting in regaling the failure.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Redeagl on April 13, 2017, 09:34:59 pm
I've asked, I believe, twice now on his blog and during the AMA that Bakker did. No response.

I figure that either means the deal is so great that its gotta be kept totally secret per contractual NDAs with powerful production companies - or that it fell through entirely and he's not interesting in regaling the failure.
Super optimistic me thinks that it failed  :(
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: geoffrobro on April 14, 2017, 06:33:40 pm
After seeing the game of thrones show go to shit in 2 seasons I don't think I would want to see a PON show. Plus they would Norsirai-wash everyone which would take the eastern feel of the series.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Wilshire on April 14, 2017, 06:54:28 pm
After seeing the game of thrones show go to shit in 2 seasons I don't think I would want to see a PON show. Plus they would Norsirai-wash everyone which would take the eastern feel of the series.

Nah think of it this way. The show isn't for the fans. its to raise capital to support Bakker writing more Earwa and other stories. Even if it becomes a clusterfuck after 1 episode, the sale of the rights would have raised enough capital to produce at LEAST 1 more book, if not a whole trilogy.

You, the original fan, loses nothing - but gains the world.
Title: Re: The Prince of Nothing: TV series
Post by: Redeagl on April 15, 2017, 10:19:35 am
After seeing the game of thrones show go to shit in 2 seasons I don't think I would want to see a PON show. Plus they would Norsirai-wash everyone which would take the eastern feel of the series.

Nah think of it this way. The show isn't for the fans. its to raise capital to support Bakker writing more Earwa and other stories. Even if it becomes a clusterfuck after 1 episode, the sale of the rights would have raised enough capital to produce at LEAST 1 more book, if not a whole trilogy.

You, the original fan, loses nothing - but gains the world.
If a fan was tempted and saw it..... They will 100% lose their soul.