[TGO SPOILERS] The head on a pole

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Wilshire

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« on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:08 pm »
WTF.

I could not squeeze any meaning from this phrase.

Also, is the very first POV we get with this line from Kellhus? I thought it was from something other than a Human, but subsequent instances make it appear that it was Kellhus, though why it was all italicized, I don't know. And what about eating babies?

Any clarity would be much appreciated.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:45:03 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2016, 04:34:33 pm »
Yeah, I don't know that we have any real clue what the hell it actually is.

At first I thought it was just an abstraction. or a theological construct.  However, he says how "he rips them about the pole" so it is an actual thing, not just an idea.

I think the best clue though is the end of that passage:

Quote
We pondered you, says the most crocodilian of the Sons.

“But I have never been here.”

You said this very thing, it grates, seizing the line of the horizon, wrapping him like a fly. Legs click like machines of war. Yesss ...

And you refuse to succumb to their sucking mouths, ringed with one million pins of silver. You refuse to drip fear like honey—because you have no fear.

Because you fear not damnation.

Because there is a head on a pole behind you.

“And what was your reply?”

The living shall not haunt the dead.

He doesn't fear damnation because of the head on a pole.  So the head on a pole must somehow be an anchor, making the Outside unable to move him?  Or a path to salvation, since the opposite is damnation, which isn't a fear?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2016, 06:26:51 pm »
The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.


"You refuse to drip fear like honey" - Implies, assuming one of the speakers is a Ciphrang or God, that men - specifically their fear - are sustenance for the gods. Or at least tasty treats.
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2016, 06:47:50 pm »
The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.

Yeah, rereading it again now, I think it is Kellhus who is speaking to a ciphrang (or something like it).

Ciphrang: "We pondered you."

Kellhus: “But I have never been here.”

Ciphrang: "You said this very thing [before]."

Kellhus: "And what was your reply?”

Ciphrang: "The living shall not haunt the dead."

So, it would seem that the ciphrang is affirming that the Outside will be closed?  Or maybe they are just sick of the Diamos' shit?  That is kind of the living coming bother the dead...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2016, 07:03:22 pm »
lol "sick of the Diamos"
Living bothering dead - Kind of like living souls wandering around in the outside asking questions and cutting off heads. How irritating, all they want to do is be peacefully dead and eat the tortured souls of man.
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« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2016, 07:18:36 pm »
lol "sick of the Diamos"
Living bothering dead - Kind of like living souls wandering around in the outside asking questions and cutting off heads. How irritating, all they want to do is be peacefully dead and eat the tortured souls of man.

Is that too much to ask?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2016, 12:09:28 am »
I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2016, 01:16:24 am »
I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.

It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?

One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?

EDIT: Actually, tomorrow I am going to look at whole else we might know who lost a head...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 01:18:24 am by H »
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2016, 01:34:34 am »
I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.

It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?

One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?

I was just stating my opinion for posterity :).

I don't think Malowebi's POV has to "fit the timeline" anymore. He's like Shauriatas, except his Ten-Wretch Circle is his Head-on-a-Pole, half alive, half in Hell.
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2016, 10:13:59 am »
I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.

It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?

One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?

I was just stating my opinion for posterity :).

I don't think Malowebi's POV has to "fit the timeline" anymore. He's like Shauriatas, except his Ten-Wretch Circle is his Head-on-a-Pole, half alive, half in Hell.

Fair enough, I mean, to me, it matter less who it is and a lot more what it does.

You bring up a good point, that if it is Malowebi, and the commandment is to "watch" there is probably something to the head on the pole establishing a circuit of watcher and watched.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Blackstone

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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2016, 04:16:35 pm »
The passages are maddening. With italics flickingon and off, no real proclamation of who the speaker(s) is(are)... Whats going on. Who is speaking to whom.

Yeah, rereading it again now, I think it is Kellhus who is speaking to a ciphrang (or something like it).

Ciphrang: "We pondered you."

Kellhus: “But I have never been here.”

Ciphrang: "You said this very thing [before]."

Kellhus: "And what was your reply?”

Ciphrang: "The living shall not haunt the dead."

So, it would seem that the ciphrang is affirming that the Outside will be closed?  Or maybe they are just sick of the Diamos' shit?  That is kind of the living coming bother the dead...
I concur with your reading of the "living shall not haunt..." statement. I still have no idea what the head on the pole is supposed to be. Maybe it's symbolic of his madness watching over him.
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« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2016, 01:18:48 pm »
I concur with your reading of the "living shall not haunt..." statement. I still have no idea what the head on the pole is supposed to be. Maybe it's symbolic of his madness watching over him.

I think it's definitely some kind of anchor, something to keep him able to go back and forth, but also a way for him to be sane while in the Outside.

I also think it has a lot to do with the wather/watched circuit, but that is some Locke territory...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2016, 01:13:43 pm »
I'm still going with a seeded Malowebi's Head POV.

It does make some sense, but that doesn't preclude my speculation on it's function though?

One question it does raise though is, how does it fit the timeline?

EDIT: Actually, tomorrow I am going to look at whole else we might know who lost a head...

Yea, I believe that we learn definitely that timelines mean zilch in Earwa. The Celmommian Dream where Akka sees through Celmommas's POV is proof of this. Gilgoal shows Cel Kellhus as the harbinger of the end of the world. The head on the pole is clearly something used in the Outside, so timeline is irrelevant. Also, Koringhus (i believe) remarks how everything has ever happened, already has. Though, and we learn this through the White-Luck, the Gods can be surprised.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2016, 08:53:55 pm »
Also, note that Kellhus use "there is a head on a pole behind me", during a later convo with Proyas. Mundane conversation, not in the Outside. So, who the he'll knows what it is. The Malowebi speculation is very neat, very neat indeed.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2016, 02:57:31 pm »
Lol - Bakker confirms that Somnambulist's rendition is Kellhus in the Thousand Hells.

And so torched Malowebi speculation, I think :D.

Also, Somnambulist, he says we should ply you... what secret secrets do you have, friend :P?

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