The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:07:31 pm

Title: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:07:31 pm
Quote from: Francis Buck
I don't believe that we have had a dedicated topic to my favorite Eärwan culture: those good ole' Scylvendi rascals.

I find their pseudo-nihilistic society to be one of -- if not the most -- interesting one in the series. They're one of the few groups that are neither Inrithi nor Fanim, and they seem to worship the No-God in the form of Lokung. My question is, why? Why did the Scylvendi join up with the No-God in the first place? Did they already worship a being called "Lokung", and then simply attributed those beliefs to the No-God once he came around?

I'm also interested in the swazond. Someone somewhere on these forums postulated that there's more to them than simple ritualistic scarring, and that they do in fact capture the souls of those slain (there was more to the theory than that, but I can remember what; if you're reading this, mystery poster, please re-inform me).

And of course, is Cnaiür truly dead and gone? I'm really split on this, desire-wise. Part of me wants him to come back, bigger and meaner than ever, to rally his kinsmen for whatever massive battle must take place at the end of this whole thing. At the same time, I'm not a big fan of the "fake-out death" trope, so if it did happen, I'd hope it was handled skillfully.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:07:38 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Francis Buck
I don't believe that we have had a dedicated to topic to my favorite Eärwan culture: those good ole' Scylvendi rascals.
Yep, the Scylvendi are my favorite culture from Bakker's books. A very realistic depiction of savage nomadic plainsmen as well - despite their bizarre nihilistic worship of the No-God, they're far more realistic and believable than, say, the Dothraki in ASOIAF.

(We get a lot of small bits and pieces about Scylvendi culture in the books - they're cattle-herders and basically Dark Ages cowboys, they're a people who stand still in history, they have a language that sounds vaguely Turkic, and so on).

Quote
I find their pseudo-nihilistic society to be one of -- if not the most -- interesting one in the series. They're one of the few groups that are neither Inrithi nor Fanim, and they seem to worship the No-God in the form of Lokung. My question is, why? Why did the Scylvendi join up with the No-God in the first place? Did they already worship a being called "Lokung", and then simply attributed those beliefs to the No-God once he came around?
Cnaiur states that the Scylvendi used to worship the Tusk like all other humans, before the No-God appeared. It's still an interesting question, why they enthusiastically joined up with the No-God - it just goes against human nature to support the extinction of your own species.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:07:45 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Consult introduced their chief to the inverse fire mebe?
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:04 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Auriga
Cnaiur states that the Scylvendi used to worship the Tusk like all other humans, before the No-God appeared. It's still an interesting question, why they enthusiastically joined up with the No-God - it just goes against human nature to support the extinction of your own species.
My theory is the consult gave them the theory of swazond, and this helped them trap souls inward and allowed them to continue birthing babies.  Since they aren't civilized none of the three seas would ever ask, care or investigate if the Scylvendie also experienced the womb plague.

It's also possible that when Scott says 'whole nations will be wrong' because they're the wrong religion he means everyone but the scylvendie, and they've had it right.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:11 pm
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: lockesnow
My theory is the consult gave them the theory of swazond, and this helped them trap souls inward and allowed them to continue birthing babies.  Since they aren't civilized none of the three seas would ever ask, care or investigate if the Scylvendie also experienced the womb plague.

It's also possible that when Scott says 'whole nations will be wrong' because they're the wrong religion he means everyone but the scylvendie, and they've had it right.

Ah, that's what it was. Another method of keeping souls from entering the Outside, while also simultaneously retaining the ability to give birth (which would explain why the Scylvendi were cool with -- and indeed, supportive of -- a decidedly non-human-friendly apocalypse).

Kind of an unrelated question but it just popped into my head; do we have any concept of the population-levels of the Three Seas?
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:19 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
It's interesting how 'wrong' or 'right' starts to orbit the biggest source of torture.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:26 pm
Quote from: Curethan
It's possible that the Scylvendi are the original owners of the Tusk. 

I see them as a deliberate inversion of the 'noble savage' in general.  Certainly more believable than the dothraki or Erikson's ... erm ... barghast was it? but I don't really know about their accuracy as a nomadic tribes people.  Pretty far away from indigenous Australians - who had stable cultural traditions for thousands of years...

They also lived in a harsh environment, and I think they crippled or killed miscreants but no way were they as savage as the people of war. (e.g. pulling someone's guts out for taking primacy etc)
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:33 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Curethan
It's possible that the Scylvendi are the original owners of the Tusk.
Nope, not according to Scött. He said in an interview that the Inchoroi made the Tusk and gave it to the Ketyai, who have held it ever since.   

Quote
but I don't really know about their accuracy as a nomadic tribes people.  Pretty far away from indigenous Australians - who had stable cultural traditions for thousands of years...
Australian aboriginals were never a nomadic horseback people, they were primitive hunter-gatherers.

The Scylvendi, on the other hand, are a race of nomads who sit at the top of the food chain in Eärwa. They consciously choose to disdain all forms of high civilization and reject lifestyles that would soften them. Like all historical warrior nomads, they view the "tillers of earth" with contempt. In the pre-modern food chain, nomads were above peasants, who were above city-dwellers. The less civilization, the hardier fighters.

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They also lived in a harsh environment, and I think they crippled or killed miscreants but no way were they as savage as the people of war. (e.g. pulling someone's guts out for taking primacy etc)
The Scylvendi and their savage culture was pretty realistic, apart from the nihilistic "death-worship" aspect. In real life, the barren steppes were always a harsh environment that bred very harsh peoples - the Huns, Mongols, Manchus and Plains Indians did things that were shocking by the standards of civilized urban peoples. Defeated rivals in their power struggles were often punished brutally, so Cnaiur pulling out Yursalka's entrails (after killing his whole family) wouldn't be something surprising at all.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:40 pm
Quote from: Curethan
All good points, obviously I am no anthropoloigist - cheers Auriga. :)
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:47 pm
Quote from: Jayfish
Re: the third portion of Mr. Buck's post, I personally think Cnaiur still has a role to play. And frankly, we don't really know that he died. The Tekne could certainly have kept him around of years. And after his experiences in TTT, I can easily see him joining the Consult.

As for the familiar territory of the "fake-out death" trope, I don't really give a shit. I'd just like to see in again. Although I think someone mentioned that Bakker has indicated his part is done.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:08:53 pm
Quote from: Madness
Bakker's commentary on Cnaiur is from an interview, I believe. He simply says that Cnaiur's arc was written for and completed with PON. Lying lies?

Whether Cnaiur lives on himself or not, Moenghus the Younger certainly carries the Scylvendi torch and his father's brutal subjective aspect - he seems to implicitly understand the gap between himself and his family, even to the point of adopting Cnaiur's Trackless Steppe mentality. Arguably, we could imagine the Erratic Nonmen, the Consult, convincing Moenghus to lead based on his ancestral heritage.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:00 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: Madness
Moenghus the Younger certainly carries the Scylvendi torch and his father's brutal subjective aspect - he seems to implicitly understand the gap between himself and his family, even to the point of adopting Cnaiur's Trackless Steppe mentality. Arguably, we could imagine the Erratic Nonmen, the Consult, convincing Moenghus to lead based on his ancestral heritage.

Which is kind of ironic after Cnaiur's musing over him in TTT that lil Moe's future adult self will depend entirely upon the culture in which he is raised.
Or perhaps this is Bakker showing/hinting that in Earwa there is more, a genetic memory or some guidance by the ancestor spirits or somesuch.  That the logos is not the only thing that seperates man from beast.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:08 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
or Kellhus whelmed Moe to be like that.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:14 pm
Quote from: Curethan
Whelming is supposed to be the process of completely suppressing emotion (from Kellhus' remembrance anyway). 
It's certainly possible that he conditioned lil Moe to be like his father, but I can't see any reason (beyond nostalgia?) that Kellhus would do that.

I'm thinking from a perspective related to somewhere in the old westeros threads (where someone posited Cnaiur's reflection on his son's future development as being indicitive of Bakker hammering his notions of BBT and causality) though, so my post above is a more of a comment on authorial intent.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:21 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
iirc, whelming is described in Warrior prophet as the way that Kellhus personally indoctrinates his Saudaukar to be total fanatics.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:29 pm
Quote from: Madness
I'm convinced it is mostly analogous to the mythological ideal of hypnotism.

People seem to overlook that Kellhus actually shapes and scrapes Serwe's memories using the techniques of the Whelming, as well as its attributes listed above.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:39 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
I almost mentioned the Serwe bit, he also does the same with Leweth.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:46 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: Francis Buck
Quote from: lockesnow
My theory is the consult gave them the theory of swazond, and this helped them trap souls inward and allowed them to continue birthing babies.  Since they aren't civilized none of the three seas would ever ask, care or investigate if the Scylvendie also experienced the womb plague.

It's also possible that when Scott says 'whole nations will be wrong' because they're the wrong religion he means everyone but the scylvendie, and they've had it right.

Ah, that's what it was. Another method of keeping souls from entering the Outside, while also simultaneously retaining the ability to give birth (which would explain why the Scylvendi were cool with -- and indeed, supportive of -- a decidedly non-human-friendly apocalypse).

Kind of an unrelated question but it just popped into my head; do we have any concept of the population-levels of the Three Seas?

I always figured something around 150-200 million all told. Europe around the height of Byzantium, and before the first plague, seemed to hover around there. Possibly less, but for such a setting, the world seems densely packed. And Bakker does love killing people off by the tens to hundreds of thousands per book, at the least.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:09:55 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Have to wonder though - what it's like, not only to be a worshipper...but actually know your god is dead.

You see the nihilistic death worship from the outside, not from having been with god, but then god died.

I mean, imagine your lover dies - are you fucking someone else at the funeral? Or does a void open up? A heart wrenchingly wide one, and so very empty?

Now, when your god dies...
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:07 pm
Quote from: lockesnow
Quote from: Callan S.
Have to wonder though - what it's like, not only to be a worshipper...but actually know your god is dead.

You see the nihilistic death worship from the outside, not from having been with god, but then god died.

I mean, imagine your lover dies - are you fucking someone else at the funeral? Or does a void open up? A heart wrenchingly wide one, and so very empty?

Now, when your god dies...
Good point, Jesus died... and that's why he's worshipped.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:15 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
And that's just when it's the sort of 'die' where you then push the big rock outta da way and walk up to heaven afterward.

Now imagine if jesus really died! He'd be bigger than jesus!
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:27 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: lockesnow
I almost mentioned the Serwe bit, he also does the same with Leweth.

And possibly something done to Achamian when Kellhus had tea with 'Seswatha'.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:34 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Sideris
I always figured something around 150-200 million all told. Europe around the height of Byzantium, and before the first plague, seemed to hover around there. Possibly less, but for such a setting, the world seems densely packed.
Europe plus the medieval Middle-East and India, more like.

"The Three Seas" are only the southern part of Eärwa, and that region spans everything from Nilnamesh (India) in the far south, all the way up to Galeoth (Northern Europe) in the north. And beyond that are even more lands, with Zeum being populated, while the far north is empty of life. The combined size of Eärwa and Eänna is definitely bigger than the Eurasian landmass.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bakker-world is a planet with only a single mega-continent, like Pangaea in our world's pre-history.

150-200 million is way too low.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:43 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Yeah, I was ONLY speaking of the Three Seas. Not the Sranc, not Zeum, nothing else. Not even the Sclyvendi, though I'd only put them at a million or two.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:10:53 pm
Quote from: Amun
I remember reading a question like this on the Three Seas forum. I think Bakker said he imagined the Three Seas as having somewhere around 75 million people.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:01 pm
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Sideris
Yeah, I was ONLY speaking of the Three Seas.
So was I, genius. And I'm still saying that Bakker's estimation is too low, because the Three Seas are far larger (and probably more crowded) than medieval Europe at its height.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:09 pm
Quote from: Callan S.
Unless you're buds with the person, skip the 'genius' stuff, Auriga. We'll keep up the pretense of a library like environment, even if were all out the back of it, smoking.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:15 pm
Quote from: Sideris
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Sideris
Yeah, I was ONLY speaking of the Three Seas.
So was I, genius. And I'm still saying that Bakker's estimation is too low, because the Three Seas are far larger (and probably more crowded) than medieval Europe at its height.

And I'm getting flak? Really? I'm merely clarifying. Ease up, guy.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:23 pm
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: Callan S.
Have to wonder though - what it's like, not only to be a worshipper...but actually know your god is dead.

You see the nihilistic death worship from the outside, not from having been with god, but then god died.

I mean, imagine your lover dies - are you fucking someone else at the funeral? Or does a void open up? A heart wrenchingly wide one, and so very empty?

Now, when your god dies...
Well the Scylvendi do basically exist to avenge their God's death.

I don't think their religion was as nihilistic as is claimed during the first apocalypse though. Remember the scene between Cnaiur and Skiotha? How the stars are holes in the veil of night, so they know that when it is night, it is truly day? Lokung apparently taught them that the world is a lie. Destroying a false world to attain the real one isn't nihilistic at all, and could explain their motive in working for the Consult.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:32 pm
Quote from: Madness
We're lead to believe that Conphas basically destroyed the Scylvendi's martial capabilities as a coordinated society for, at least, a couple generations.

Plus, Kellhus has a tributary Scion in Tinurit of the Akkunihor. The Scylvendi seem to have yielded to the Kellian Empire in any meaningful capacity.

Aside, this does again seem to reflect conversations of Gnostic philosophy.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:41 pm
Quote from: jogrady
I believe the Scylvendi will play a major role. They have not had any external pressure(new empire, sranc). I stated in another post that this has given them the time and resources to rebuild and prepare for the upcoming war. Two points, if the Scyl were truly broken, there would be no reason for the New Empire (NE) not to attempt a "conversion". In fact, a friendly Steppe would provide NE with manpower, natural resources, and a safer/alternative path north. Scyl are not conquerors, they are raiders. If they are routed, why post defensive elements along the Scyl marches? Scyl have resumed raiding or are perceived to have the capabilities to resume raiding.

This is a chance for redemption and an opportunity to participate in their religions culminating event.  Someone is rallying the tribes. It might be CUS but it doesnt really matter. Finally, a hostage son wont prevent the election of a King.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:48 pm
Quote from: Madness
Touche, jogrady. I'm just worried that if the Scylvendi are holding any cards, they are going to miss their opportunity to play them.
Title: Re: The Scylvendi and their role.
Post by: What Came Before on June 04, 2013, 04:11:55 pm
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Touche, jogrady. I'm just worried that if the Scylvendi are holding any cards, they are going to miss their opportunity to play them.

Perhaps they are waiting for the New Empire, the Nonmen, and the Consult to more or less destroy each other. Then the next books will be about the Scylvendi killing whoever won and taking over the three seas, much like the original Cunoi-Inchoroi wars. Then the cycle repeats, men forget, someone lets out the consult, the third apocalypse, ad infintum.