The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 13, 2018, 08:58:45 pm
-
TLEILAXU and I were discussing the possible identity of the Mutilated in the Quorum and I mentioned how shortly after reading TUC I had considered the possibility that one or more of them could be (one or more of) the Pragma mentioned in PON. According to the wiki, however, Samarmau Uän (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Samarmau_U%C3%A4n) was born in 4001 and Meigon (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Meigon) was born in 4002, which would make them 131 and 130 as of TAE. So, it would be exceedingly unlikely for one or both of them to be among the Mutilated (unless chanv was involved, I suppose).
But then we noticed that the third Pragma mentioned by name, Kessriga Jeükal (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Kessriga_Je%C3%BCkal) does not have his birth date given in the text, and unlike the other two does not have a glossary entry. Which could be significant by itself. To be sure, Jeükal taught Kellhus in his youth and Kellhus was in his 50s during TAE, so he can't be a young man in any case, but it's possible he was nowhere near as old as the other two. And keep in mind that Malowebi himself is not young either, so maybe he wouldn't remark on the Mutilated's age as, say, someone like Sorweel or Kelmomas might have had. TLEILAXU also pointed out that the burnt Mutilated's scars are so extensive they might actually make it hard for Malowebi to tell what his actual age is.
So it definitely seems that there could be some clues here - anyway, it's as interesting a subject to discuss as any. Anyone else want to comment/add some details we might have missed?
-
Another thing we discussed is that the unscarred Mutilated is a bit suspicious, being unscarred and all.
-
Didn't Bakker said somewhere that we never saw them before?
-
Another thing we discussed is that the unscarred Mutilated is a bit suspicious, being unscarred and all.
I agree - I think it's a telltale that he was a traitor, without whom The Consult might've lost the battle of Ishual. A skinspy wouldn't have been successful infiltrating them on the sly, but they could've sent in a sorcerer ( Shae? ) skinspy who they knew would get caught but who would then use a Cant of Compulsion to get one of them to turn. Just speculation, but either that cat surrendered quick to avoid injury ( seems unlikely, if a defective then would've been dispatched by Dunyain earlier on ), was captured by surprise ( seems unlikely ) or was an agent of The Consult from the get go.
-
A turncoat is an interesting thought, but I have trouble imagining that the Consult wouldn't have tortured any Dunyain. At no point would there be an opportunity to come to the Consult safely during the war. Think about it: early on, they want to know everything about the Dunyain, years into the war they are furious at the Dunyain and want to exterminate them, and at the end of the war they take prisoners. At any point, the Dunyain they get a hold of need to be either punished or have information extracted.
More likely to me is that the Unscarred came to the Consult/Golgotterath after the Dunyain had already taken over. That's the only scenario where a Dunyain could walk into the Ark and not be captured and tortured. That has some other interesting implication too though.
Maybe that there might be a dunyain wondering around the wilderness still.
Or that these Dunyain are still continuing the mission, still breeding new dunyain, and Mr.Noscars was one of the new ones. I would imagine with the tekne they could get some proper Axolotl Tanks.
-
Or maybe the others fought well against countless srancs, and he just happened to be knock out before he could do anything.
-
Maybe not a real traitor, just someone who accepts that they're going to be defeated and decides it's meaningless to continue to fight a battle already lost.
Sorcery was the decisive factor, the thing that turned the tide of the battle, the Dunyain retreat into the Thousand Thousand Halls (maybe the very definition of Conditioned Ground) and still they are unable to win against these invaders.
I can totally see some Dunyain rational enough to try to avoid utter destruction for their tribe.
-
Another thing we discussed is that the unscarred Mutilated is a bit suspicious, being unscarred and all.
I agree - I think it's a telltale that he was a traitor, without whom The Consult might've lost the battle of Ishual.
Why do his scars need to be visable to be real? He could well be the one who they managed to turn via Cants of Compulsion, or broken by showing him the mutilation of the others. Psychological trauma, or torture, is no less real. Alternatively, he might have been the one for whom just seeing the Inverse Fire was enough to turn him.
Second, once the location of Ishuäl was known, it was only a matter of time before it would be destroyed by the Consult. I don't believe it would take a traitor to have Ishuäl fall. Sranc are almost innumerable and the fortress itself of mundane construction, there was no way the Dûnyain could hold out forever.
-
I agree - I think it's a telltale that he was a traitor, without whom The Consult might've lost the battle of Ishual.
Why do his scars need to be visable to be real? He could well be the one who they managed to turn via Cants of Compulsion, or broken by showing him the mutilation of the others. Psychological trauma, or torture, is no less real. Alternatively, he might have been the one for whom just seeing the Inverse Fire was enough to turn him.
While that is a viable possibility, H, Malowebi's narration might indicate there is something going on with the unscarred Dûnyain (this is from chapter 18 of TUC, bolding mine):
He alone appeared unscarred and intact, though his attitude was so remote as to be cruel.
Of course, this is open to interpretation.
Or that these Dunyain are still continuing the mission, still breeding new dunyain, and Mr.Noscars was one of the new ones. I would imagine with the tekne they could get some proper Axolotl Tanks.
Now that's an intriguing idea, pity that Malowebi's narration didn't give us any clues regarding one or more of them seeming younger than the rest.
One issue I can see with this is that Ishuäl was presumably discovered less than 20 years before the events of TAE, so you'd think Malowebi would notice if one or more of the Mutilated was under 20 years of age. Again, this could be explained by the scars being disfiguring enough to hide that (this considering that someone other than the unscarred one was a second-generation Dûnyain) or that the Tekne allowed them to have the new Dûnyain grow to adulthood very rapidly?
-
Do we actually know for a fact those mutilations came from tortures by Consult and/or from war wounds? Could be a self-inflicted thing after getting full access to IF. That way the Unscarred is the one hell of a creepy person. Or he was in a control gropu to have both IFed and nonIFed duniyains. Or he's a mastermind who tested IF with others and just observed the results.
-
Self inflicted wounds doesn't sound like something a Dunyain would do.
-
Self inflicted wounds doesn't sound like something a Dunyain would do.
I don't think the Mutilated mutilated themselves either, but remember that there had been suicides after their contamination by the outside world, up until Koringhus himself jumps to his death.
-
Self inflicted wounds doesn't sound like something a Dunyain would do.
I dunno. Moenghus both scarred his arms like a Scylvendi AND put out his own eyes. I think the question to always ask when looking at Dunyain behavior is; does this particular end justify that particular mean? If a Dunyain is convinced the answer is yes, I don't think you can put ANY behavior past him.
-
I dunno. Moenghus both scarred his arms like a Scylvendi AND put out his own eyes. I think the question to always ask when looking at Dunyain behavior is; does this particular end justify that particular mean? If a Dunyain is convinced the answer is yes, I don't think you can put ANY behavior past him.
That's most certainly the way I see it, at the least.
-
Fair enough. I should have said I don't see the point of the self harm in this case.
-
Fair enough. I should have said I don't see the point of the self harm in this case.
Remember how Kellhus surprised an terrified Akka by absorbing cutting-edge knowledge like logic or gnosis and instantly jumping to their advanced, unknown forms? It was mostly possible because he's a brilliant student, but also because Akka is a great teacher capable of conveying difficult concepts with ease.
Now imagine all troubles of studying a tekne from two broken inchoroi relicts, who were not the brightest insects in the swarm even before that velvet duniyain revolution. On the one hand, mistakes would certainly have a place. On the other hand, duniyain are capable of vivisecting themselves if they consider it a shortest path to extracting the scientific knowledge they need.
Mutilated are so Moenghus the Cishaurim.