[What Came Before]

When and how does he gain this ability? It would be interesting if it was simply an extension of Inrithi knowledge, much like the meta-Gnosis was simply taking the knowledge of the Gnosis to the next level. That would make sense, actually, if the Inchoroi are in fact behind the Tusk. Another instance of the Inchorois' plan being twisted to Kellhus' advantage.

[What Came Before]

Brain is working on overtime today.

I was rereading a bit of WLW and I've realized something...

Kellhus is constantly going back and forth between the World and the Outside!

Why would you think that?

[What Came Before]

Meyna:

"The Decapitants, as the demonic heads had come to be called ... Proyas was one of few who knew something about their acquisition, how Kellhus, during one of the longer truces that punctuated the Unificiation Wars, spent several weeks studying with Heramari Iyokus, the Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires, learning the darkest ways of Anagogic sorcery, the Daimos. Proyas had been among the first to see them when he returned from Carythusal and perhaps the first to dare to ask Kellhus what had happened. His reply loomed large among the many unforgettable things the man had told him over the years: "There are two species of revelation, my old friend. Those that seize, and those that are seized. The first are the province of the priest, the latter belong to the sorcerer... (WLW, p565).

Wilshire, its a subtle hint... especially as it's laced before we find out definitively that Kellhus has the Daimos - some speculators obviously had it mostly figured since reading them on Kellhus' waist in TJE.

"The chamber was vacant" (WLW, p71) - It's highlighted over and over in the passage. Stark. Empty. That there's nothing in the room for Proyas to miss. Kellhus keeps spartan.

"'My Lord and Salvation?' he called to the empty air.

...

'Yes... Please, Proyas. Share my fire.'

And there he was, sitting cross-legged before the octagonal hearth" (p71).

We know from later in the passage that the body physically bows, unburned, over and in, Kellhus' Seeing-Flame, because Kellhus, not Proyas, pulls Proyas out of the fire.

If nothing else, I figure Kellhus would have a Fortress of Solitude... in the Outside!

[What Came Before]

Page 71 in my edition of WLW is all in The Meorn Wilderness.

Where is it supposed to be?

[What Came Before]

WLW, Ch. 2, Istyuli Plains, first Proyas perspective.

[What Came Before]

Thanks. Was page 44-47 in mine.

A few things:
Just before he calls "My Lord and Salvation?" there is this "The chamber was vacant. Even still, Proyas fell to his knees and lowered his face to the simple reed mats."

From that I'd say it is possible that Kellhus entered the room silently, sat down, and then addressed Proyas without him noticing beforehand.

Though, to contradict that:
"He sat with the slack repose of someone who had not moved for some time."

To what end would Kellhus want to sneak into his own room, and its clear he didn't teleport himself in since a big blue light would have been noticed. I suppose that if the transition between the world and the outside is a quite one, a simple fadding in and out, then he could have very well have come from the outside.


Also, "The only symbols visible were those inscribed, column after meticulous column, about the octagonal circuit of the small iron hearth set in the room's heart."
This calls to mind the circle of runes that is required to summon ciphrang.

[What Came Before]

+1 on Fading. I think the World and Outside transfer happens differently than Cants of Transposing. I could see it as being nothing, a blink, and he's in or Out.

That last is all about giving sorcerous power to the Seeing-Flame, in my opinion. Nothing to do with my assertion.

[mrganondorf]

LOVE THIS THREAD!!!

@ Madness/Trisk - Love the Iyokus' Gift thing!  Wondeful!  +1 Uptusk!

@ Madness - cool shit about chorae/psukhe causing demonic dissolution!

what you said about Kellhus constantly going back and forth between the world and the outside--to get orders from dad?  i love your theory that he's carving out his own realm, kind of like an incorporeal version of the rebuilt andiamine heights.  built with souls? devotees?

@ Camlost - before reading your post, I had never thought about the 'testicular' nature of the decapitants.  Big stones indeed.

@ lockesnow - decapitants are illusions, brilliant!  Kellhus would do shit like that.  What else could he do?  Impersonate Yatwer?

like your idea that Kellhus is setting himself up as an intercession -- "pray to me, i'll actually keep the other gods from eating you"

@ Anasurimbor Bob - Kellhus discovering new sorcery through the Outside?  Love it!  Would he be able to discover ALL forms of sorcerery from that POV?  Would he be able to work magic like the gods?  No mark?

When we see more Ciphrang, it will be neat to see how they address Kellhus?  Slave to be or king?

[Madness]

@ Madness/Trisk - Love the Iyokus' Gift thing!  Wondeful!  +1 Uptusk!

I'm going to go all Trisk with that one . I just gave it a fancy name.

@ Madness - cool shit about chorae/psukhe causing demonic dissolution!

Sorry, MG, can you point out my quote to me?

what you said about Kellhus constantly going back and forth between the world and the outside--to get orders from dad?  i love your theory that he's carving out his own realm, kind of like an incorporeal version of the rebuilt andiamine heights.  built with souls? devotees?

I assume taking over pockets of desire in the Outside is as easy as killing the Ciphrang there?

But why wouldn't Kellhus go Outside to train, to learn more... etc.

[mrganondorf]

@ Madness - You said this awesome thing on page 1:

That's also a real interesting aspect of this assertion because it depends on some special case info to do with Chorae and the Psukhe...

The Ciphrang on Kellhus' hip can't torture Iyokus for eternity - those would be the ones Achamian kills. The one that is hit with a Chorae in Shimeh salts. The other dies by the Psukhe. So only those that are killed by the Psukhe or Chorae actually experience dissolution?

Kellhus plan: use the Daimos to call gods into the world, use psukhe/aporos to kill them one by one.  Golgotterath is the ideal place since the boundary is weak there.  Result: either the Outside dies and the whole universe is disenchanted or the Outside is emptied and ready to be dominated by a single Dunyain. 

[Madness]

Lol - I just can't figure out what happens to the Ciphrang (is there an s for plural Ciphrang... why do I feel it is both singular and plural) who are beaten by a sorcerer.