World War IV

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Woden

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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 10:10:16 am »
Five more terrorist bastards killed by cops last night in another terrorist attack near Barcelona.

And it seems that the fuckers were planning some great attack with explosives but hopefully they fucked it up and blowed up two of them while manipulating the explosives.
Only when this went wrong they made the attacks in Las Ramblas in Barcelona and later in Cambrils as plan B.

One of the bastards still missing, though.
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H

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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 11:35:59 am »
Yes, maybe. But if you ask them, they will tell you that they are soldiers (holy fucking soldiers) and that they are fighting a war, a holy one.

Von Clausewitz said that "all war presupposes human weakness and seeks to exploit it", and these fucking bastards are doing exactly this. They use fear and terror (who are sons of Ares, by the way) to achieve their goals (destroy their enemy and impose their "peace"). They are not common criminals, they are more (or less) and the have not to be treated only like criminal scum, and obviously they don't deserve our pity, it is not our fucking fault that they are terrorists (although some people tend to believe that).

Let us not forget another Carl von Clausewitz aphorism: "War is the continuation of politics by other means."

This case is really no different, just the "battlefield" is.  Gone are the days of armies lining up against armies, or the idea of anything like a defined battlefield.  What this is, far more than an armed conflict, is a cultural battle.  This is why no army will win it, because this is a political battle fought over (and about) cultural dominance.

It's not about religion, not in the sense that anything is holy or not.  It's about the pragmatism of power.  Power to dictate, to have and to hold people.

The screwed up thing about terrorism is, how exactly do you fight it?

You win by not falling directly into the trap of imagining this an actual war.  You win by not becoming exactly what your "enemy" paints you as.  You win by not acting in accordance with shitty behavior.  In another thread, I talked about my personal "Life Lessons 101."  I think number one on that list has to be, "Just because someone acts like an asshole, doesn't mean you should."

While it's pretty shitty in the moment to answer terror and bombs and violence with tolerance, humanitarian aid and literal kindness, that is the actual answer.

The problem is that it is difficult.  Because we have an equivalence that vengeance and justice are one.  And maybe they are.  But vengeance only begets more vengeance.  And what then of justice?  Is it just that a small group of people get to dictate how everyone else behaves?  Is it just that we have to erode our personal morals just because someone is willing to subvert them?

Quote
Since all men count themselves righteous, and since no righteous man raises his hand against the innocent, a man need only strike another to make him evil.

From TJE, chapter 11.  This cuts direct to the heart of it, really.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 11:45:48 am »
Some terrorist groups are just privateers for nations.

Woden

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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 11:47:47 am »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 12:10:45 pm »
Terrorism isn't real. Just a bunch of worthless criminals. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its not horrible for people to kill people, nor am I denying that there are people doing horrible things in the world. But calling for war is what they want.

They are about as effective as internet trolls. What makes a troll effective? Engaging it. Talking to it. Building for it a soapbox so that it may shout louder for others to hear. You can't fight an ideology with guns. Take a line from TSA: To fight is to feed it, to punish it is to breed it, madness knows no bridle but the knife. Trouble is, killing someone for an ideology does not kill the ideology, and in fact it validates the cause. You simply make the problem worse.

War creates little else but more war. Look at the US. We've been at war for decades with, well, everything - and what has it got anyone but pain and suffering? The World derides us for being warmongerers, despises us, As they should -
 attacking another country for their belief structure, call them terrorists or not, makes you no better than terrorists yourselves.

Its all fear mongering. Terrorism is entirely ineffectual. 13 people died? A tragedy yes, but millions die every day, and it doesn't make news. Give it a news story, and its somehow important. We've now made heroes and martyrs out of every single one of those criminals, which strengthens their ideology, brings them more recruits, makes the problem worse.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 12:13:36 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.
"We" being who? Barcelona? The greater EU? NATO? The UN?

There will always be 'evil' to kill. And it is, conveniently, always the side you aren't on. How fortunate "we" are always rome and "they" are always the goths, don't you think?
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 12:14:18 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.

I couldn't disagree more.

We are only damned if we allow our morals to be subverted, which is exactly what the action of terrorism is mostly for.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 12:19:01 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.

I couldn't disagree more.

We are only damned if we allow our morals to be subverted, which is exactly what the action of terrorism is mostly for.

So there is a tragedy, and the world has lost all hope? 13 people killed, plus the 5 now dead terrorists, and the world is lost?

This is how terrorism works. It makes you afraid. Makes you lash out. Makes you as they are, to feel as they feel.

If you hate them so much, you should do your best not to become them, which is exactly what's happening.

20 dead is barely even a traffic accident. The world doesn't die every time a car flips over, but if we called for all car industries to be burned to the ground, we'd truly be lost... Yet this is what you are calling for?

« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 12:22:16 pm by Wilshire »
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Woden

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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 12:20:50 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.
"We" being who? Barcelona? The greater EU? NATO? The UN?

There will always be 'evil' to kill. And it is, conveniently, always the side you aren't on. How fortunate "we" are always rome and "they" are always the goths, don't you think?

Europe is doomed.
In this case, yes, we are Rome, and we would be lucky that the enemy were the Goths.
Or do you think that the salafist fuckers are good democrat tolerant guys? No, man, they want to impose us a fascist Caliphate in our very home.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 12:23:33 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.
"We" being who? Barcelona? The greater EU? NATO? The UN?

There will always be 'evil' to kill. And it is, conveniently, always the side you aren't on. How fortunate "we" are always rome and "they" are always the goths, don't you think?

Europe is doomed.
In this case, yes, we are Rome, and we would be lucky that the enemy were the Goths.
Or do you think that the salafist fuckers are good democrat tolerant guys? No, man, they want to impose us a fascist Caliphate in our very home.

First of all, The worst tragedy in my time, in my country, killed a couple thousand. A couple thousand, out of tens of millions. Statistically, that's 0% of people. Statically, it didn't happen.

And 2nd, imposing marshal law on another country, whether its you doing it to someone else, or them doing it to you, is the same.

You are calling for war, you are no better than the terrorist.

---
3rd, in their minds, They are Rome, and You are the Goths. Does that justify their actions?
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Woden

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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2017, 12:24:40 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.

I couldn't disagree more.

We are only damned if we allow our morals to be subverted, which is exactly what the action of terrorism is mostly for.

So there is a tragedy, and the world has lost all hope? 13 people killed, plus the 5 now dead terrorists, and the world is lost?

This is how terrorism works. It makes you afraid. Makes you lash out. Makes you as they are, to feel as they feel.

If you hate them so much, you should do your best not to become them, which is exactly what's happening.

20 dead is barely even a traffic accident. The world doesn't die every time a car flips over, but if we called for all car industries to be burned to the ground, we'd truly be lost... Yet this is what you are calling for?

The world is not lost for this attack. But this is a symptom of a greater disease.
I have no fucking hope for the EU. We are strangers in our own countries. If we do nothing we will be subsumed, if we do we are fascists. We are fucked up in any case.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2017, 12:25:42 pm »
IMO, its what you get when you let emotion and religion rule the world.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2017, 12:28:44 pm »
Sorry, I probably sound rather strange.

I'm really not trying to say that 'doing nothing' is the answer. Nor am I saying that what happens isn't tragic, and I hope you don't take it that way.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I do (obviously) have some thoughts on what probably won't work, though its entirely possible I'm wrong.
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Woden

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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2017, 12:29:49 pm »
The politic of tolerance and defeat has put in this dire (and irreversible) situation. We are in the same position that of Rome with the Goths, and in a few years our "Rome" will be utterly destroyed. We are damned.
"We" being who? Barcelona? The greater EU? NATO? The UN?

There will always be 'evil' to kill. And it is, conveniently, always the side you aren't on. How fortunate "we" are always rome and "they" are always the goths, don't you think?

Europe is doomed.
In this case, yes, we are Rome, and we would be lucky that the enemy were the Goths.
Or do you think that the salafist fuckers are good democrat tolerant guys? No, man, they want to impose us a fascist Caliphate in our very home.

First of all, The worst tragedy in my time, in my country, killed a couple thousand. A couple thousand, out of tens of millions. Statistically, that's 0% of people. Statically, it didn't happen.

And 2nd, imposing marshal law on another country, whether its you doing it to someone else, or them doing it to you, is the same.

You are calling for war, you are no better than the terrorist.

---
3rd, in their minds, They are Rome, and You are the Goths. Does that justify their actions?

So you propose do nothing and remain in calm in our best white togas as the gauls enter the Capitolium and sack us. This sounds like "vae victis" for me.

Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Woden

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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2017, 12:31:30 pm »
IMO, its what you get when you let emotion and religion rule the world.

Yes, it would be better if all of us were dûnyain.  ;)
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.