[Wilshire]

Yeah I didnt think it was that simple, but I thought I'd ask. I guess its still possible though that Kellhus happened to have more genetic variation then Moenghus, compared to normal humanity, if that is indeed what causes the inability to have viable offspring.

I think we are to assume that intelligence is supposed to be a marker for compatibility, and so too would the ability to see the Onta, but since there aren't really any schoolwomen there isn't an easy way to ferret them out.

[The Sharmat]

It's possible, but by this point in time, the Dunyain are likely profoundly inbred.

I wonder if Kellhus knew Esmi's mother was a witch.

[Wilshire]

They could be inbred but exhibit little to no effects of typical inbred populations if they took extraordinary precautions as only the Dunyain could have.

But how does that come into play here? Are you suggesting that because the Dunyain are so inbred, there would likely not be may differences, genetically, between Kellhus and Moenghus?

What was the stated goal for Moenghus to go out into the world? If the Dunyain were getting so inbred that they were having significant trouble procreating, its likely that more than just 1 or 2 would have been sent to the world so that they could conquer it (or at least part of it) and send fresh genetic stock regularly to the Dunyain. We've seen the unfortunate effects of the half-dunyain, and breeding with the regular humans would set them back hundreds of years, but if they kept isolated for much longer they wouldn't be able to have children at all.

This is why I don't believe that to be the case. It doesn't seem like that was what they are/were trying to do with Moenghus/Kellhus. I think they have a profound understanding of  genetics and have been extremely careful about it since their inception, and have fine tuned their plan with their super-dunyain brains every generation or two.

It could be that the Anasurimbor line needed to be culled. For whatever reason too pure (in this case meaning lots of inbreding i guess), perhaps a failed line a centuries long experiment with that bloodline. As Alia mentioned in a different thread, when breeding cats and such, if you suspect a negetive genetic trait to run in the family you often breed a mother/son or father/daughter pair, and if the children show the defect, you simply remove them from the breeding....

The Dunyain recognized that the Anasurimbor line has some issue, so they bred Moenghus with his mother a few times. Maybe Kellhus was find but his brothers/sisters had the defect, so they killed them off. Instead of killing Moe outright, they sent him out to scout the world. He came back, realized he was going to be killed, and left. No idea why they didn't just kill Kel though

Edit:
For inbred dunyain populations, see: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=993.msg8263#msg8263

[The Sharmat]

They can still be inbred and not suffering tremendously from inbreeding depression due to a careful program of selective breeding. The genetic distance between Kellhus and Moenghus could be smaller than it usually is between father and son but not represent any serious genetic disabilities.

I believe their difficulty in breeding with other hominids may be due to genetic drift and incipient speciation rather than Dunyain genetics being a complete clusterfuck.

[mrganondorf]

I think Samarmas is smarter than Kelmomas.

I feel like someone's brought this up already, but maybe he's very close to being a self-moving soul, untethered to his own darkness and able to sift through Kel's.

it would be neat if there was a general principle--the murdered occupies the darkness that comes before the murderer.  kelmomas killed sami, so now sami can control kelmomas (sami manipulated kelmomas into doing it too)

moenghus controls kellhus!  inrilatis controls maitha! 

[Wilshire]

Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.

[mrganondorf]

Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.

very interesting Wilshire!

when Kellhus said that his kids had 2 souls, i didn't take it literally, thinking it was just a way of talking about consciousness vs self-awareness.  as in the Dunyain are so self-aware that their self-awareness is almost like a second soul monitoring the first soul: ordinary awareness

however, if the Dunyain literally have two souls: a human soul and a dunyain soul, then it might be a dunyain objective to jettison the human soul.  perhaps Kellhus was planning to have twins creating a situation where 1 body is split into 2, so there are 2 souls and 2 bodies.  using [METHOD] kellhus will shove the human soul in one body, leaving the other body with nothing but the Dunyain soul

perhaps he thought this would be a way to keep the breeding program alive if Ishual is destroyed.

if Kellhus was thinking all of this, he's going to freak out when he get's back and Kelmomas is all "i lieks to eatum peeples da"

[locke]

Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.

Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.

[Simas Polchias]

Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.

Wow, I like this twist.
But, plz, excuse me for the next pic.

[mrganondorf]

Maybe this is what makes the Dunyain have such insight.

They are born in pairs, or form tight bonds with another, and then they are sent into the TTT and instructed to make sure that only one of them leaves, and if both emerge they will both be killed. Every living Dunyain has this second soul.

Which immediately leads me to the speculation that moe is kells twin brother (hence the we are identical thoughts he has when he enters kyudea) and kellhus has merely been whelmed into believing moe is his father and that they are both 35, rather like aragorn,  they can pass for 35 because of their half elf genetics.

WOAH!  Meppa is Kellhus' real dad--while not being old Moe!

if all of this is true, i wonder if Kellhus forged some kind of magic bond between Kayutas and lil Moe by having them raised as effectively twins

[mrganondorf]

thinking about Moe, i think it's cool to imagine him traveling into Kian and calculating ... hm, i'm dunyain so naturally i want to be as powerful as possible, should i be the top Cish?  maybe i should become the head of the Scarlet Spires?  i can't not do magic, maybe i could become a Shrial-Shaman?  hmm, those Mandate are pretty fancy, maybe i should be their king.  Nansur is an empire and has a school, i could be emperor.  i convince them that the scars on my arm are really a symbol of Nansur prowess--it's the number of Scylvendi i've killed or something.

i could become Lord of the Consult but that will take some time...

[geoffrobro]

The twin idea is interesting but Moe Sr. Was 30 years older then Kellhus. maithnet is proof of his older age because at the beginning of TDTCB Kellhus is 30 and is but on the circumfix at 33. (Like our good buddy Jesus who died at 33.)
I think the Dunyain replace or further their "fathers" work. The Dunyain produce one Dunyain son and maybe let the rest run amok. Kayutus is Kellhus' true son and the war with the consult will most likely last the next 10 years. When maybe Kayutus must continue the work of his father.
The bonding to gather a second soul is totally a Dunyain tactic, Moe Sr. Used Cnaiir as such, a bond that makes a man cross the known world for that Dunyain (to make Meppa) . Kellhus may have this tactic on Serwa, she knew in her heart he was god on earth, true devotion. Kellhus has Akka in his hooks as well, we've seen his "Fear and loathing in Earwa" adventure just because he has been cockolded. And Serwe maybe be doing the same to Moe II and Sorweel.
The Dunyain do work in a pattern it seems.     

[mrganondorf]

The twin idea is interesting but Moe Sr. Was 30 years older then Kellhus. maithnet is proof of his older age because at the beginning of TDTCB Kellhus is 30 and is but on the circumfix at 33. (Like our good buddy Jesus who died at 33.)
I think the Dunyain replace or further their "fathers" work. The Dunyain produce one Dunyain son and maybe let the rest run amok. Kayutus is Kellhus' true son and the war with the consult will most likely last the next 10 years. When maybe Kayutus must continue the work of his father.
The bonding to gather a second soul is totally a Dunyain tactic, Moe Sr. Used Cnaiir as such, a bond that makes a man cross the known world for that Dunyain (to make Meppa) . Kellhus may have this tactic on Serwa, she knew in her heart he was god on earth, true devotion. Kellhus has Akka in his hooks as well, we've seen his "Fear and loathing in Earwa" adventure just because he has been cockolded. And Serwe maybe be doing the same to Moe II and Sorweel.
The Dunyain do work in a pattern it seems.     

you got me thinking--if Dunyain literally have 2 souls, maybe the explanation for Meppa is that he is 'half' of Moe.  as in just 1 of Moe's souls escaped.  Moe could have done this to himself knowingly.  if being dunyain+cishaurim is not a winning combo, he could jettison all of the problem bits.  i wonder if Meppa is the successful, predicted end or not?  it could be that Moe hid memories from his Meppa-self the same way Zaphod did in The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy