A Game of Thrones

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Wilshire

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« on: August 01, 2013, 02:57:39 pm »
Could someone be so kind as to explain to me why this is such a popular book? I just finished reading it, and would have to say I was marvelously  unimpressed. It was by no means a bad book, I enjoyed parts of it, but for all the hype surrounding the whole thing, I was really expecting something really impressive. Or at least something unique. There where a lot of characters but none of them seemed all the interesting,
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. Aside from that, most of them where irritating. The story itself was kind of interesting, but there where no real plot twists or big surprises to keep things interesting. Everyone went from point A to point B and stayed on the tried and true paths of standard fantasy genre roads.


Not to be offensive, though I am certain that someone will be offended, here is why I think its so popular.

First of all, its there is a screen adaption of it. Books seem to be exceedingly more popular when there is something to watch. This might because people like to see the stories come to life, or it might be that people are too lazy to use their imagination, though probably a healthy combination of both.

Second, and equally important, it is a book in the fantasy genre that isn't written for 12 year olds. I think that the generation of kids that grew up reading Harry Potter, Eragon, and other such fantasy books, have all outgrown those books and were looking for something closer to their age. The book is well written and interesting, and I think it happend to fill a niche market that wasn't there for a long time.

So pretty much you have a bunch of 20-somethings looking for something to read thats not entirely a coming-of-age story, and since its a TV series its also "cool" to be reading it.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong :)
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Davias

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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 07:15:41 pm »
A few years ago, I was a passionate fan of the series, I must admit. I have read almost all of the classical "Fantasy" books in the 90's.
Back then, it was cool to read all the Lord of the Rings rip-offs, Wheel of Time, many AD&D books, Dragonlance, Shannara, and many others. But as I grew older, those cliche's didn't work any more and I began to yawn when I walked along the shelves of many libraries.

"Oh, another magical stone, jewel, talisman gone missing? Yawn...
"Oh, please, not another shining hero slaying evil gods and overlords with ridiculous plans to conquer the world." Yawn...
"Ah yes, the elves are living in the woods, the dwarfs under the mountains and the Trolls trashing with big clubs..." Yawn...

I began to read more history books and horror literature, with only a fantasy book now and then.
And in 2002 I bought the first book of Game of Thrones. At first it looked like many other books in my collection and the reading was only...ok. But at the end of the first book, somehow the author has gripped me and I loved his dark and grim tales of Westeros. I loved the historical touch of Martin's world, the ambivalent characters, the gritty world building and the sinister threat in the background.

I loved the Song of Ice and Fire, until the last two books came out. The third book was fantastic in my opinion and I still count it in the list of the best books, I have ever read in the fantasy genre. But the fourth and the fifth book couldn't hold the high standard of the first three books. They were boring and the story didn't make any progress. Today I wouldn't recommend the books anymore.

But fortunately, today there are authors like Scott Bakker, Steven Erikson, Joe Abercrombie, Paul Kearney. They write intelligent and thrilling fantasy, without repeating the old cliches of Elves and Dragons.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 07:19:47 pm by Davias »

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 10:25:13 pm »
Up until the last few chapters I was pretty disappointing. I felt like nothing really happened in the majority of the book, and the ending started to get interesting, but I am on the fence as to whether or not I should pick up the next one. If I had to wait 2 years for the next book to be written, I would have probably forgotten about it, but since they are all out I might pick up the next one and give it another shot.

btw I really liked Joe Abercrombie and obviously Bakker, maybe I'll look into the others.
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Callan S.

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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 12:11:19 am »
I think they ended up rather like some kind of encounter with a dominatrix, for readers - they left actually feeling something. Pain. Instead of more sacarine confirmation that the holes in their teeth already overflowed with.

I'll draw connections to a non man looking to hurt what he cares about, so as to feel again. To remember! The books hurt various characters who would not be hurt in other books - and so the reader remembers.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 02:50:02 pm »
As I wrote in the what are you reading, I'll just reiterate for this thread that I made it partway into Storm of Swords and stopped reading because I couldn't stand the soap-opera meets fantasy.
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locke

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 05:59:40 pm »
you guys are all nuts. ... but I'm not sure I'm up to mounting a defense at the moment.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 07:28:19 pm »
haha no need to mount a defense. Really I'm just curious to hear the perspective of someone who likes the books who I find respectable. You fit that criteria quite nicely Locke. I was just attempting to articulate some of my own feelings/thoughts with the intention of hearing others opinions. Besides, we all know that a thread where everyone has the same opinion is boring. Just tell me what you think I'll not criticize it :P
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Kellais

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« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2013, 12:42:28 pm »
SoIaF was extremely popular long before the TV Series. So that is not it.

I guess what Martin did well was a) the shock-value aka killing characters, even protagonists, offhandedly and b) characterization and dialogue.
I still think he is one of the best when it comes to gripping dialogue.
His setting and world is rather mediocre. Some nice twists on the normal cliché, but overall a very standard fantasy setting in the vein of european medieval fantasy.

But i agree that overall, the series is overrated. Not as much overrated as you put it, but still overrated. I am always baffled when i see the many comments in the line of "Martin spoiled me for any other fantasy work" or somthing similar. Come on guys, it is not that good.

For myself, Martin is securely in the top 10 of my favourite Fantasy series.
But he really lost some quality between books 1 - 3 and the last two books (Book 4 was a real disappointment).

That said, it still is fact that Martin outsells Bakker (or any other fantasy author i like better) by a very big margin. I'm sure he is one of the bestselling fantasy authors of all time. Tolkien still beats him (but remember that Tolkien has 4 to 5 decades on him) and i think the WoT is still on top of him as well...but that may change soon (at least for WoT).
That is by no means a measure for quality, i know. If it was, Harry Potter would be the best fantasy series ever  :o ::) ;D
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Garet Jax

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« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2013, 06:07:06 pm »
I enjoyed some parts of aSoIaF so far... 

Unfortunately for me though, all of my favorite portions of the series reside in the relatively limited descriptions on the history of The 7 Kingdoms/Valyria as well as the mysterious cities in the far eastern portions of Essos...

I even participated of in the MUSH for a bit so satisfy some of my intrigue.

All that being said, I would still like to fist fight Martin.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 06:09:14 pm by Garet Jax »

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2013, 08:37:03 pm »
Maybe I was having a bad day :P. It just makes me so surprised to finally read it and find out that there is better stuff out there that is so unheard of by the general public. I probably just expected too much. At any rate, its still a good book that is worth reading for anyone who thinks they like Fantasy. It just shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of the genre.
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Kellais

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« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2013, 09:03:48 pm »
It just shouldn't be the be-all-end-all of the genre.

Absolutely agree.
Unfortunately, i think it will be for a long time. The thing is, Martin's setting, story and his style are familiar enough to a lot of readers (be it fantasy or other fiction) so that it has still a widespread appeal.
Therefore, it has much more readers as, say, Bakker or Erikson. Which is a shame imo. But that's how it is. I mean look at Harry Potter. What an overrated series. But it has mass-appeal. And we all know that "the masses" (aka least common denominator) seldomly stand for high quality.
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"GoT is TSA's less talented but far more successful step-brother" - Wilshire

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2013, 09:09:17 pm »
Glad to hear those words coming from someone else's mouth other than my own.

Don't get me started on Harry Potter :P.

Thing is, people like Martin or Rowling seem to write in order to do popular. And, well, they did that. They certainly beat that game.

People like Bakker write because they have something to say. He doesn't really care all that much if he is popular or not, and it shows. His books might be far superior literature, but when has that ever mattered? Like you said, being popular, and being good, are not the same thing. Unfortunatly, it makes Bakker the hipster of fantasy :P, and I hope someday I can say "I liked Bakker before it was cool", but I'm not holding my breath.
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Kellais

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« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 07:36:39 pm »
Lol...does it really matter to you that you were a fan of Bakker before *insert stuff here* ? I mean, come on...don't sell out  ;)

In the end, you cannot argue about taste. I'm also not so sure if Bakker or other authors that are not that successfull really say "you know what, i will not go for popular..." . It's just that the way he wrote his story he had to tell, is not popular (well at least not as popular as, say, Martin or Jordan)...unfortunately.
I often have the impression that guys like Bakker or Erikson are too complicated for most readers. They have a level of intricacy and are so multifacetted (for example, imo, you cannot read Bakker or Erikson on the train...you need some quiet and concentration to really get the story) that many readers shy away from putting in the effort. They want "popcorn", not a "seven-course-menu", so to speak. It only needs to entertain, not to make you work...to think hard. And that is why Harry Potter has millions of readers...and Bakker or Erikson have not. People are lazy.

Anyway...i got carried away a bit...i'm sorry  ;D
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locke

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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 10:03:18 pm »

Thing is, people like Martin or Rowling seem to write in order to do popular.

What the fuck is this bullshit?  Talk about starting at a conclusion that flatters and elevates yourself and then working backwards to justify your privilege.  Good to know we have you around to mind read their motivations as well as letting us know how much 'better' you are than something that is popular.  Is the amount you like something directly related to your perceptions of that thing's popularity?  Make your own opinion instead of just creating all your opinions based on being the opposite of the 'mob.'

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 10:46:41 pm »
lol ok locke. Sorry I missed a few words that made you upset  :'(

Lets try this:

Thing is, I think people like Martin or Rowling seem to write in order to do popular.

And yeah the typo, "do" should be "be".

Feel better?

I figured it was obvious that everything I was saying wasn't to be taken as some kind of absolute truth that everyone should accept outright. I thought it would be more irritating to put phrases like "in my opinion" and "I think" into every line. I guess  that I thought that it wouldn't make anyone too upset if I didn't do that. I guess that next time I will try and make it more obvious. I hope that I made you feel better.  :-*

Anywho Kellais, don't worry about getting carried away, there are far more intense examples of "carried way", so you're in the clear. Its not like anywone is yelling at you yet  ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 12:20:10 am by Wilshire »
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