The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Warrior-Prophet => Topic started by: locke on May 08, 2013, 05:47:28 pm

Title: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on May 08, 2013, 05:47:28 pm
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

But have you ever noticed that Serwe becomes Kellhus' proof as well?  She's his proof that he is a God. 

Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: EkyannusIII on May 08, 2013, 08:24:40 pm
But have you ever noticed that Serwe becomes Kellhus' proof as well?  She's his proof that he is a God.

You mean to himself? The rest of the Three Seas seems to need no such proof, having many others at hand.



Quote
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

I always thought Cnaiur's "homosexuality" was overblown.  He is attracted to one man (Papa Moe) or arguably two (also Kellhus, who is apparently shockingly like Moe in appearence) in a lifetime, in which he otherwise finds time to rape innumerable women (all presumably attractive) and marry IIRC four wives, one of which, Anissi, he is repeatedly stated to genuinely love enough to reveal his shame too.  That sounds less like a homosexual than a man who was sweet-talked into buttsex he wouldn't have otherwise been interested in while still a vulnerable adolescent.

In some ways I think the Dunyain's suppression of emotion impairs their interaction with mundanes in more ways than we realize.  If Moe wanted to own Cnaiur, all he had to do was offer himself as a surrogate father figure rather than a seducer; the effect in Moe's favor would have been the same, and he would have been able to go back to Cnaiur for more help as needed since Cnaiur wouldn't hate him (imagine if Cnaiur ended up becoming King-of-Tribes and received orders from Moe to submit himself to Kellhus along with the entire Scylvendi nation to prosecute the Holy War...).  He even could have used most of the other strategies he employed (e.g. the trackless plains metaphor).  But no, Moe has to go for the quick and dirty (literally in this case) fix.  Same thing with the swazond on his arms.  He could have been ridden to the borders of the steppe by Scylvendi he controlled, but he had to mark himself and then deal with the unforseen consequences.

Kellhus does the same thing with Akka over Esmenet.  Akka probably cannot defeat Kellhus, but he could have served him, and instead Kellhus goes and blows that all on the absurd premise that Esmi is the smartest woman he is going to meet in the Three Seas.  How is making enemies unnnecessarily the Shortest Path?

On the basis of these examples I think the Dunyain's lack of empathy impairs their ability to adequately cognize the long-term consequences of emotional manipulation.  Perhaps they cannot imagine that people have difficulty "getting over it" since this is plainly no problem for them...
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on May 08, 2013, 11:02:43 pm
His proof of being a god? No, he doesn't need some dumb hot chick walking behind him with a card that says "i'm with the God" in order for him to make people believe. He doesn't really need mundane proof in that way.

I'd say that if you want her to be his proof, it would have to be more metaphysical: er innocence and dedication leading to his eventual (if not momentary) divinity. Not sure if thats what you meant, but there is no mundane/worldly reason I can see that he would need more proof than his own words.

Or, if you think Kellhus is bat-shit crazy, then I suppose its possible he wanted a blond bombshell at his side always telling him how awesome he was. Crazy Kellhus would have a big... ego... and he would also like people to stroke it...
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: sologdin on May 09, 2013, 01:04:30 am
there is a passage in II regarding how serwe affcts the micropolitics of interacting with kellhus, as i recall ut.  not proof of divinity, but more sedgewick's homosociality thesis: proof that he is a man worthy of attention for douchey aristocrats.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2013, 01:17:47 am
Ok I'll give you that one. But even still, she makes things easier maybe, but he certainly doesn't need her, not as proof anyway. If Moe Sr. could persuade Cnaiur, a super macho barbarian, to be gay, I'm sure Kell could convince a bunch of sissies to do the same.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on May 09, 2013, 01:30:31 am
Kellhus brandishes serwe's heart as proof to the masses.  After that bit of supernaturalness is when everyone gets the conviction that he is a god incarnate.

and I was also thinking along the metaphysical lines outlined here.  to borrow from a post of mine at westeros:

Quote
Like science, it takes skill and rigorous training to see and understand the physical, on the other hand perhaps it takes instinct and intuition to understand the metaphysical.

If the latter is the case, then Serwe was the first to grasp the Metaphysical-equivalent-of-The-Logos.

But I'm getting ahead of my 'faces or souls, souls or faces' future topic.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2013, 02:26:06 am
Can't say I understand where that post was going, but I suppose I could agree with you here then. Some kind of metaphysical proof, but proof then for whom?
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on May 09, 2013, 03:37:11 pm
Kellhus' proof to the holy war
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on May 09, 2013, 05:03:47 pm
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on May 10, 2013, 05:57:16 pm
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.

I'd say the Drusas Achamian in PoN was not all that Drusas.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on May 10, 2013, 08:03:06 pm
Sorry didn't get that  :-\
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Francis Buck on October 21, 2013, 12:51:53 am
I'd say the Holy War in PoN where not all that Holy. Maybe his proof for another war that Kellhus claims is Holy later on though.

I'd say the Drusas Achamian in PoN was not all that Drusas.

lol

Sorry didn't get that  :-\

I don't either but it made me laugh.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 28, 2014, 03:54:21 am


Quote
Everyone knows that Cnaiur uses Serwe as his prize, his proof.  His proof that he is Scylvendi.  His proof that he is heterosexual.

I always thought Cnaiur's "homosexuality" was overblown.  He is attracted to one man (Papa Moe) or arguably two (also Kellhus, who is apparently shockingly like Moe in appearence) in a lifetime, in which he otherwise finds time to rape innumerable women (all presumably attractive) and marry IIRC four wives, one of which, Anissi, he is repeatedly stated to genuinely love enough to reveal his shame too.  That sounds less like a homosexual than a man who was sweet-talked into buttsex he wouldn't have otherwise been interested in while still a vulnerable adolescent.


Are you familiar with the Kinsey scale, with it in mind he very well can be attracted to both women and men. Due to his social conditioning however lusting after the latter is unacceptable and something he suppressed. A truth Moe could see and use.  His rape of Conphas is otherwise completely beyond the pale, recall that the imperials doing such to scylvenndi prisoners was one of the provocations the drove the people to their ill fated attack at Kiyuth. And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 12:53:43 pm
And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.

It was all gravy until now.

I'm not sure I grok this - I liked how themerchant put it in the favorite scenes thread.

(click to show/hide)

The steppe is trackless. No act is forbidden, whatever initial taboos Moenghus the Elder used to leverage Cnaiur's soul.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Inraus Ghost on January 28, 2014, 09:22:55 pm
And yes, he is mad but that act otherwise cuts against the grain of his madness. Or my perception of it anyway.

It was all gravy until now.

I'm not sure I grok this - I liked how themerchant put it in the favorite scenes thread.

Sorry that was a poorly phrased attempt to preemptively deflect any attempts to use his "madness" as an explanation for Conphas. My preception of him was the need to not be a faggot/weeper, to measure up to his people standards, was the driving force of it. Forced buttsex like the filthy Nansur dogs, not likely.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Madness on January 28, 2014, 10:01:41 pm
I've argued at Westeros that:
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: The Sharmat on February 21, 2014, 03:31:58 am
Saying rape isn't about sex is like saying gluttony isn't about taste.

That said, Cnaiur is batshit and in this particular instance I think the raw violence and degradation of the act was the biggest part of it. I'd say it was composed of 60% raw "I AM THE MOST VIOLENT OF MEN", 30% "The Steppe is trackless" where it's just a means of breaking him and there are no taboos, and a slim 10% "Y'know, that dude's actually kinda hot."

Has anyone else noticed a trend of people assuming that bisexuals don't exist? Usually when a character like this turns up I see more than half the people concluding that they're gay and that any heterosexual act is just denial, an attempt to hide their real orientation, or just them trying to meet society's expectations; rather than the simpler explanation of the person just being sexually attracted to both genders.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Srancy on February 21, 2014, 09:03:50 am
That's been an issue all the way back to the Ancients
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Madness on February 21, 2014, 01:43:57 pm
That said, Cnaiur is batshit and in this particular instance I think the raw violence and degradation of the act was the biggest part of it. I'd say it was composed of 60% raw "I AM THE MOST VIOLENT OF MEN", 30% "The Steppe is trackless" where it's just a means of breaking him and there are no taboos, and a slim 10% "Y'know, that dude's actually kinda hot."

Lol. Thanks for that.

Has anyone else noticed a trend of people assuming that bisexuals don't exist? Usually when a character like this turns up I see more than half the people concluding that they're gay and that any heterosexual act is just denial, an attempt to hide their real orientation, or just them trying to meet society's expectations; rather than the simpler explanation of the person just being sexually attracted to both genders.

Yeap.

That's been an issue all the way back to the Ancients

+1
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: mrganondorf on February 21, 2014, 03:47:43 pm
Has anyone else noticed a trend of people assuming that bisexuals don't exist? Usually when a character like this turns up I see more than half the people concluding that they're gay and that any heterosexual act is just denial, an attempt to hide their real orientation, or just them trying to meet society's expectations; rather than the simpler explanation of the person just being sexually attracted to both genders.

You made me think of more from the books.  I think Akka had a male lover when he was in school.  That and there seemed to innuendos about his relationship to Inrau and Proyas.  Esmi and Serwe didn't mind sharing the same man, maybe they liked each other sexually too.  And of course the Inchoroi/Sranc don't seem to mind the gender of the person they're raping.  They would like this:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/pornographydesensitized-populace-demands-new-orifi,6028/
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Alia on February 21, 2014, 03:59:09 pm
You made me think of more from the books.  I think Akka had a male lover when he was in school. 

Yeah, his name was Sancla and he died rather young.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: The Sharmat on February 22, 2014, 06:25:38 am
Some parts of the Three Seas don't seem to even have a taboo against homosexuality. Aren't the Ainoni fine with it? I think the Scylvendi were the main ones that thought it was immoral, or at least a sign of weakness.

Akka doesn't strike me as the kind of dude that would diddle one of his students though, despite any attraction he might have. He's an upstanding guy and that's taking advantage.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Alia on February 22, 2014, 09:46:19 am
Especially not with Proyas, who was after all a royal son - and a very religious one to boot.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Borric on February 22, 2014, 10:49:54 am
If i remember right.
It was an affair that happened when both were students.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Madness on February 22, 2014, 06:21:27 pm
If i remember right.
It was an affair that happened when both were students.

You mean between Sancla and Achamian?
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on February 22, 2014, 09:51:35 pm
Especially not with Proyas, who was after all a royal son - and a very religious one to boot.

Quote
The Grandmaster’s lips tightened into a sour line. “Clever man. Clever little man. Tell me, Drusas Achamian, how is it that after all these years you still find yourself in the field, hmm? Did you offend someone? Nautzera, perhaps? Or did you bugger Proyas as a boy? Is that why House Nersei sent you packing those years ago?”

Achamian was speechless. They had researched him,

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Darkness that Comes Before (The Prince of Nothing) (p. 490). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.
Achamian likes to think he was dismissed because he spoke a heresy, an interesting thought for a person whose very presence is an offense against god.  If House Nersei was willing to overlook the fact of Achamian being a sorcerer, they'd probably overlook the thing Achamian likes to think of himself as getting fired for.

But there's a half truth there, the thing Achamian thinks of was almost certainly the source of his falling out with Proyas, because to Proyas what he said was unacceptable--it was the moment when they 'broke up,' but it wasn't the reason he was fired.

Achamian probably buggered Inrau as well.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on February 22, 2014, 09:56:30 pm
Also, I don't think it is right of the reader to 'excuse' Cnaiur's rape of Proyas.  Cnaiur is definitely attracted to men, heck he has a scene in the Warrior prophet where he masturbates to thoughts of Proyas.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: mrganondorf on February 22, 2014, 11:57:43 pm
Also, I don't think it is right of the reader to 'excuse' Cnaiur's rape of Proyas.  Cnaiur is definitely attracted to men, heck he has a scene in the Warrior prophet where he masturbates to thoughts of Proyas.

Man, I missed that one!  Psshuuu: the sound of the rape of Proyas passing my brain without getting in.  Aurang doesn't seem to mind, boys or girls; Shae/Esmi.  Moe is sexy, whoever he needs; Nayu/Maitha's mom.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: locke on February 23, 2014, 06:56:55 am
Also, I don't think it is right of the reader to 'excuse' Cnaiur's rape of Conphas.
Fixed that for myself, clearly a typo.  I don't think Proyas was raped, other than whatever skeevyness of power dynamics/age dynamics.  It's not like Earwa has age of consent laws, it's more like ancient times where you have your bar mitzvah and now you're an adult, no teenagers. if we were to assess it by today's standards their relationship would be statutory rape, of course.

Anyway, I found the quote I was looking for that illustrate's Cnaiur's crush on Proyas. It's subtle.  But remember Cnaiur has been REALLY close to Proyas for months.

Quote
And he thought of Proyas.

On the worst nights he hugged himself in the blackness of his tent, screaming and sobbing. He beat the earth with his fists, stabbed holes with his knife, then fucked them. He cursed the world. He cursed the heavens. He cursed Anasûrimbor Moënghus and his monstrous son.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02). The Warrior Prophet: The Prince of Nothing, Book Two (Kindle Locations 5799-5802). Penguin Group. Kindle Edition.

btw, the "and he thought of Proyas." paragraph is preceded by two paragraphs, one thinking of Serwe as his Proof, the next thinking of sex with women and then the paragraph, "and he thought of proyas." which is clearly followed by a description of the turmoil he feels at his sexual attraction to men, including masturbation, and the paragraph ends with the invocation of the man he most loves, Moenghus.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Borric on February 23, 2014, 10:30:40 am
If i remember right.
It was an affair that happened when both were students.

You mean between Sancla and Achamian?

Yes, somewhere in the Warrior prophet, Achamian reminisces about his student days.
And how sad it was to lose his friend and fellow student to some drunk with a chorea.   
He mentions his eyes, and how they had led them to being lovers for a time. 
I personally think this is the only instance of homosexuality by Achamian.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Madness on February 24, 2014, 01:15:15 pm
I personally think this is the only instance of homosexuality by Achamian.

Some parts of the Three Seas don't seem to even have a taboo against homosexuality. Aren't the Ainoni fine with it? I think the Scylvendi were the main ones that thought it was immoral, or at least a sign of weakness.

+1

And isn't it really bisexuality?

Has anyone else noticed a trend of people assuming that bisexuals don't exist? Usually when a character like this turns up I see more than half the people concluding that they're gay and that any heterosexual act is just denial, an attempt to hide their real orientation, or just them trying to meet society's expectations; rather than the simpler explanation of the person just being sexually attracted to both genders.

+1

Sorry to just appropriate your previous arguments for use, The Sharmat. And just wondering after your perspective, Borric, or anyones.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: Wilshire on February 24, 2014, 09:18:37 pm
lmao I'm not so sure "stabbing holes in the ground and fucking them" is a subtle hint for masturbation. I probably just read that wrong, again, but it was pretty funny when I read it.
Title: Re: His PROOF...
Post by: mrganondorf on February 25, 2014, 05:29:42 pm
lmao I'm not so sure "stabbing holes in the ground and fucking them" is a subtle hint for masturbation. I probably just read that wrong, again, but it was pretty funny when I read it.

Cnaiur forgetting the right way to masturbate--the surest sign that he is going mad?