Mostly my quick thoughts and the most basic summary you could imagine of the reading done by Bakker. There were only about a dozen people there and I didn't see any video cameras so this might be the best you can get. The words that I remembered, for I am yet whole.
Chapter 3 - Ishterebinth
Late summer (no year given)
From Sorweel's POV the whole time
Starts out right were it ended, Sorweel bitches about Serwa being super hot and lamenting about how he doesnt get to plow those fields. Something about "milking his roots" (had to stick in a masturbation reference right in the beginning).
They (Sorweel, Moe, Serwa) are still jumping to Ishtere.
Sorweel thinks much about himself being a narindari (sp) for Yatwer.
A small confrontation between Sor and Moe about who is damned: The son and daughter of a god, or the practitioners of incests. (Guess its all a mater of perspective, but the idea behind that is basically how can they be in the wrong since they are the spawn of god)
Sor's face is still hidden
Serwa insists he still loves, and cannot figure out why. This absolutely conflicts with Sor's own thoughts.
The group ends up at some nameless ruins, that Moe affectionately dubs "Nameless".
They wonder around, talk about how the "ghouls" (i.e the Nonmen. I didn't realize this was a pseudonym) have been around for ages.
Something is briefly mentioned by Serwa that some of the stones have strange bruises. (The Mark I guess) She says though that its so faint she can barely see it. Different than any she has seen before.
There is a scene were Serwa freaks out on Sor. She grabs him and starts screaming at him, asking him WHY DO YOU LOVE US. (It seems like she can almost recognize that he can hide/is hiding something but she can't tell what/how)
So then she casts some flashy spell thingy. He whines some more about being in pain then he suddenly starts having flashbacks and from the day his father was killed to now. Several scenes are recounted and he mentions the various scenes with his now dead slave and Yatwer.
Through all this Serwa still cannot see his true feelings.
Sor then nearly blacks out and lays dazed on the ground. He has a vision of Yatwer talking to him, saything something about how he knows not who he truely is, and that "a power indistinguishable from" ... (sorry couldnt get down that whole quote. Ended with something like "from what will happen" or at least to that effect. Sounded a lot like the WLW stuff)
The company moves off on foot. They speak about the Nonmen and the various reasons the church has condemned them through the years. (Nothing jaw dropping)
"Sranc with Souls" (direct quote from some 'priest', though his name I cannot recall)
Serwa says they must travel the rest of the way on foot. This, because the teleporting "marks existence too profoundly". Wouldn't want to attract the Quya's attentions since "Quya are not to be trifled with"
(This whole bit sounded like they were marching to their death. Had a very gloomy attitude)
[At this point Bakker had to stop reading for a second as he corrected a mistake. He tried to move on and then says that its a first draft and he actually has to just skip a few sentence since he cant actually figure out what he wrote down]
Sorweel and Moe have a private conversation. Sorweel asks wtf did Serwa do to him back there. Moe dodges the question and again asks how/why do you still love us.
Moe says to Sorweel "You are not who you think you are"
Sor asks Why. Moe ignores the questions for a while, then says "You will know soon enough"
Sor "When?"
Moe "Before we die"
---
thus ends the reading. Sorry for the inevitable mistakes and the improper quoting of the text. That whole telephone effect thing im sure is at work here.
After he was done Bakker lamented a bit about the plight of the philosopher in this day and age, and how he created Earwa as kinda a philosophers dream. By that, he meant that it was a place much unlike our own, where people philosopher's (schoolmen) were powerful and wealthy, and people respected them :P
Anyways, he then let a few people ask a few questions
Some guy asked something about wanting to become a fantasy writer. Advice and whatnot.
I didnt pay enough attention to give Bakker's response due credit.
A guy somewhere behind me asked what sranc are supposed to look like.
(I almost fell out of my chair. Come on man, there are tons of descriptions of them laying around throughout the books.)
Bakker gave the standard description, pretty Nonmen faces whilst relaxing, horrible expressions whilst excited. 5 or 6 feet tall (thats like 2 meters right?).
Same fella asked what is the Nail of God.
(This guy is 0 for 2 at this point. He meant Nail of Heaven. Killing me)
After what he meant was cleared up, Bakker said that it "looks like a star". But then he kind of digresses and talked a bit about how we will all be in for some big surprises. (someone somewhere on this forum has suggested something about geostationary orbit like a ship or something. Perhaps)
A pretty cute girl asked were the philosophy comes from.
(She did mention she only started reading the books a few days ago)
His response was essentially that he cherry picks ideas that sound cool and then puts them in the book. Of course he knows and understands the background and meaning behind the philosophizing though. (Hilarious)
Some guy in a blue letterman jacket asked if the appendix at the end of TTT was supposed to be objective and truthful.
Bakker said that he wanted to create an appendix, a big one, that had bits and pieces (and whole sections)that were purposely misleading or simply wrong. He said that it was, just like everyting else, a fallible source of information.
Then he went on to say that he is working on a new appendix, and that it will not be included in TUC.
Currently TUC is 180,000+ words. (WLW was about 200,000)
The story has been written from start to finish, but this does not mean its done.
The publishers will likely want to cut sections out of the book and make it smaller.
A nice quote to end with:
"The whole series has been a strip tease ... and TUC is the g-string shooting across the room, finally leaving everything fully exposed" - R. Scott Bakker
I gotta brag a bit now. Feel free to skip this:
Afterwards me and my buddy got to sit down at the bar and have a beer with Bakker and the prof (and 2 chicks but I would guess they were just there to get a good grade, they didnt say much). Seriously amazing. Shot the shit with Bakker for about an hour before he had to leave. Did you guys know he is at least 6' 5'' if not taller? I felt rather small. He also signed a couple of my books. :D
One last thing, when the professor addressed Bakker, specifically when it was just them two talking and typically around the time of leaving, he called him Anasurimbor. Why?
Thats it for today. I'll be back tomorrow.
That sounds awesome! Though I'm curious as to why Bakker mentioned that TUC is turning out to be a behemoth if it's in fact shorter than WLW, and could be shorter still...
Wow! Thanks for the coverage! I think you remembered much better than I could!
Who's the prof?
I took notes so as to better report back here :). James Weldon is the professor of the course. Apparently Bakker has doen this 4 times for him, though not for the past 3 years since he wasnt teaching the course. He told me later on that Bakker revieled some info earlier that day during regular lecture time (which wasn't open to the public unfortunately.)
bbaztek: I thought the exact same thing. Though it could just be a behemoth as far as information and story goes. A ton of information will be laid out for us.
Also for those interested:
He said he'll probably never write another thriller novel like Neuropath. Saying that "Its amazing how having a kid turns you into a fuzzy old man"
The Enlightened dead, which is the title of another book he'd like to write similar to Disciple of the Dog, is not coming any time soon. Although it took him "about 3 months" to right DotD, it wasn't the commercial success he had hoped for, so more books like it will unlikely be coming out soon.
Lmao, I tell you they cannot bar you from a University classroom! You are awesome, Wilshire. I have three friends in KW who've all read TSA many times but, for whatever reason, decided not to go see Bakker?! I appreciate your sharing the experience with us. Wonder what's in Ch. 2.
I really like the direction Bakker's taking here but, usually, simplicity gets me :).
Unorganized response for your thoughts:
I'm not sure this has been voiced before but Sorweel's Visions - I think it may have been in one of the two WLW threads in WLW forum or on Westeros - makes me think its possible that the White-Luck Warrior is an everyman. That is, the Warrior is anyone, anytime, anyplace?
The one thing that tipped me to this is that the White-Luck Warrior and Mimara notch their blades in the same way in WLW, though I can't remember if Mimara ditches her own sword at some point near the end.
Ghouls does come up once... somewhere. Really going to have to wrack my memory for that one though.
However, we've obviously never gotten the common perspective on the Nonman. We the reader have spent since the prologue of TDCTB contemplating active Nonmen in Earwa and since TJE experiencing another. The common man or woman of Earwa probably think of them as Undead Elves, beings that were once saviours to Mankind... or just never think of them.
Do you remember the context of the Sranc with Souls quote?
Was Serwa's Cant one of the Agonies, "the Gnostic Cants of Torment" (TTT Glossary, p507)?
I'm interested to know what Moenghus, true son of Cnaiur, recognizes in Sorweel.
Hilarious perspectives on people - honestly, though... we're the worst of the worst when it comes to Bakker fans. No one wants to talk shop with us.
I believe the geostationary orbit, station, etc migrated here from Westeros, if it's here at all.
However, there've been theories concerning the Inchoroi not being the Big-Bad.
For instance, Major Dune reference, not so much a spoiler:(click to show/hide)QuoteSome guy in a blue letterman jacket asked if the appendix at the end of TTT was supposed to be objective and truthful.
Bakker said that he wanted to create an appendix, a big one, that had bits and pieces (and whole sections)that were purposely misleading or simply wrong. He said that it was, just like everyting else, a fallible source of information.
Then he went on to say that he is working on a new appendix, and that it will not be included in TUC.
Boom! Good job, Wilshire.
Congrats on having a sitdown with Bakker, man, I've been honoured enough to have that opportunity a couple times in my life. Dude is truly larger than life - as in stature as well.
What books did you get signed?
I assume its a joke between them and the Professor is a fan of the books but Bakker is Kellhus :P.
Did you find out what the info was from the Lecture?
That's too bad about the Enlightened Dead and Disciple books in general. Gotta figure out how to sell his books lol.
Though, I'd known about the Neuropath thing. Let's just hope that it doesn't effect TSA, which has to get worse than Neuropath, and be glad NP was written at all. Might just read it this aft lol.
+2 for the behemoth referencing pure information.
Cheers, Wilshire. Sorry about the random nature of the flow here to anyone reading.
EDIT:
"It stood to reason that the ghouls would want some guarantee of success before casting their lot" (WLW, p564), Proyas' persepctive.
Awesome. Thanks for reporting.
It sounds from this like he perhaps chose a chapter that didn't give away all that much.
I think it's likely... Elsewise, he would have had to tell the world something about the Ordeal eating Sranc or the Siege of Momemn by Stonebreaker and the Bandit Padirajah.
This pleases me. Your dutiful actions will not go unnoticed, Wilshire.
I don't have the maps in front of me, but don't they have to pass Ishual before they reach Ishterbinth, are those the 'nameless ruins'? I'm assuming they are very close to Ish at this point, considering Serwa doesn't want to use sorcery. Which fits with the reason why Seswatha didn't want to use sorcery in Golgotterath (attracting the few).
"WHY DO YOU LOVE US" reminds me of the No-God's "WHAT DO YOU SEE"
Quote from: PunkhazardI don't have the maps in front of me, but don't they have to pass Ishual before they reach Ishterbinth, are those the 'nameless ruins'? I'm assuming they are very close to Ish at this point, considering Serwa doesn't want to use sorcery. Which fits with the reason why Seswatha didn't want to use sorcery in Golgotterath (attracting the few).
"WHY DO YOU LOVE US" reminds me of the No-God's "WHAT DO YOU SEE"
Ishual is more towards the north, and there would be many ways to pass over the mountains. It is possible they saw nothing of it. And I am sure it wasn't Ishual, I left out much of the description but it was in a field not the snowy mountains.
Good call on WHAT DO YOU SEEQuote from: AjokliThis pleases me. Your dutiful actions will not go unnoticed, Wilshire.Thanks :). I knew there would be like ... a dozen people that would be interested in what happened and werent as lucky me. No problem at all. Besides its kinda fun being the center of attention.Quote from: TriskeleAwesome. Thanks for reporting.Yeah but with sufficient effort I'm sure something could be dragged from the depths. But maybe we'll just wait.
It sounds from this like he perhaps chose a chapter that didn't give away all that much.
Madness, your friends are odd btw.
WLW being everyman. An interesting idea that could be very possible. Why put all your bets on one guy?Quote from: MadnessDo you remember the context of the Sranc with Souls quote?This section was either Serwa or Sorweel talking about the Nonmen. They went through the reasons why the Nonmen were evil. The two most specific I can remember are homosexuality and "stealing immortality".
The sranc with souls quote, I believe, was some religious priest describing Nonmen.
This is kind of interesting considering that the sranc came 'from' Nonmen, so really the guy should have said Nonmen without souls to describe sranc, but whatever.Quote from: MadnessWas Serwa's Cant one of the Agonies, "the Gnostic Cants of Torment" (TTT Glossary, p507)?It is possible, but I don't believe any name was given. It was in Sorweel's POV so even if it was one of the named spells he wouldn't have know. Schoolmen are anathema to his culture, more so than anywhere else.
It could have also been some kind of combo of torment and compulsion. What is odd is that he seems fairly forced to remember his memories. They were like something flowing from his mind into his hand, and yet Serwa could still not see.Quote from: MadnessI'm interested to know what Moenghus, true son of Cnaiur, recognizes in SorweelThe entire reading was focused on what the Children thought of the Horse King. It was almost as if they were trying to make him hate. Trying to force him into action, or something, but due to the Mask they could not see any progress and this was infuriating them.
Perhaps if he is not "an enemy" as the Nonmen requested, they will not accept the offered collateral and will simply kill them upon arrival. Who knows.Quote from: MadnessHilarious perspectives on people - honestly, though... we're the worst of the worst when it comes to Bakker fans. No one wants to talk shop with us.Glad you appreciated it. I can be rather judgmental and I'm quick to appraise people. Especially in the safety of my own head (or the internet I guess). I always try to give people a chance, but I'll never interact with these people again so ... no second chances I guess :P.
And believe you me, I know I'm the worst of the worst. 8-)Quote from: MadnessDuneFunny you should mention this. During our conversation (which now I regret not titling this board as "Beers with Bakker") I mentioned that I just finished up Dune through God Emperor, due to the fact that I heard a lot of influence for him came from that.
He actually said that the majority of the inspiration came from the original novel, which he loved. After that they got a bit less interesting for him, though he said that through God Emperor was OK (ok, not great).Quote from: MadnessWhat books did you get signed?My first edition, first print, US hardcovers: JE and WLW. Those were the only ones I got as they first were printed. They all have like 100 markers sticking out of the pages denoting interesting quotes or passages that I really liked. It looked like he was happy to see them :)
I asked who the guy on the front was. He said "I have no idea", and that one of the covers (not the ones I had) has a modified picture of one of his editors. Hilarious. But he did say that these two were actually some of his favorites. We had a good laugh about some of the insane foreign translation copies, specifically his favorite worst one "the green France one". This one can be found somewhere on the bored, its the one with the crazy lookin guy with ridiculous hair carry what looks like Kell's sword.Quote from: MadnessDid you find out what the info was from the Lecture?No! He wouldn't tell me, and the prof said I have to take the class to get that kind of privileged information. Haha oh well, I seriously would have been there all day long if I knew were too look for him. He was there since 11am, permission or not.Quote from: MadnessSome guy in a blue letterman jacket...What was important here was not really the answer to my question. We, on the forum, already 'knew' the answer to this. Though I was interested in the answer, so I could be sure of our conclusion, another point was to get him talking about the misinformation in the books so far. I knew I'd probably only get to ask one question (after clueless wasting my time. sign. :P ), so I was hoping to get a two for one. I did.
Though I was looking for a few things, which means it might have been I inevitably found them, I think his response gives a lot of credence to the false WHCB theory, as well as just wrong information in general.Quote from: MadnessCongrats on having a sitdown with Bakker, man, I've been honoured enough to have that opportunity a couple times in my life. Dude is truly larger than life - as in stature as well.
Stature ... was that a phallus reference? lol
But seriously, I was amazed at how astoundingly normal he was, and I mean that in the best way. I feel like most Ph.Ds in philosophy would be much more pretentious (though I don't personally know any so I guess thats just stereotyping). It was just a great time, like talking to one of my friends (albeit a much more insightful friend, but familiar none the less).
Did he say when the appendix would be released?
QuoteBesides its kinda fun being the center of attention.
Probably going to motivate me to figure out titles to give you one, actually.
Lol, my friends are odd cause you met them or odd cause they didn't go... cause they're social retards - one of them didn't go on his own since another one didn't go and he... didn't go alone. Thumbs down.
How can Serwa honestly believe the prattle of Zaudunyani Inrithism, if she dreams differently about the actual Nonmen?
The Mask. Good call.QuoteThough I was looking for a few things, which means it might have been I inevitably found them, I think his response gives a lot of credence to the false WHCB theory, as well as just wrong information in general.
+1. I've actually had him admit it to me as well but it was far less informal than answering a question in an actual "public reading."
The phallus reference could be a pun, I wouldn't know. However, whether I'm 6'2 and whether he's 6'6 or not, he stands a clear head above me still.
As I said, just an awesome guy. Definitely fast friendship, he's very much like most of the people I've grown up with - I think it reflects his upbringing then his education.
Odd because they didn't go. How bizarre.
Concerning Serwa:
False information leads to false conclusions. She may dream, but why would it be different? The Tusk was written long before the first apocalypse. Even compared to the Mandate and their dreams, it is ancient. I'd imagine the church's condemnation of the Nonmen predates everything by enough that its fairly consistent throughout most cultures.
+1, sir, on all counts. Concise.
Goddamn... I want her perspective so damn badly. What do her half-Dunyain genetics further reveal of the Dreams and the entities Seswatha encounters in them?
A whole damn lot I'd imagine. But with all this extra information, does she still follow Kell's golden path, or Moe's?
I think Yatwer has placed another soul in charge of Sorweel's face, personally. This soul is happily looking through Sorweel's eyes, responding...and in yet another reference to Scott's consternations, thinking all that it does is it's own choice, not someone else (ie, Sorweel's choice).
A living mask.
good job wilshire , we people of eanna thank you
Quote from: CiogliDid he say when the appendix would be released?Sorry didnt see this.
He did not mention exactly when he was planing on getting to it. It seems like as of right now its only received sparse attention, as he has been obsessed with TUC.
Though as it is essentially a collections of short stories rather than a whole book, I would think that it won't take too long, though don't expect it for christmas. He takes a few years to write each book, so less than a year or two after TUC comes out I'd say we'll be seeing it.
First thank you very much for the detailed report. Sounds fantastic. How I'd love to be there! And how much more I'd love to get into that high fantasy literature class!!!Quote from: WilshireSame fella asked what is the Nail of God.
(This guy is 0 for 2 at this point. He meant Nail of Heaven. Killing me)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
We are the worst, aren't we?
Now now, he did actually stand up and ask, atleast!
That's the best of us.
Stand up and ask on your own time, not when people (meaning me) have legitimate questions. :P nah but your right
Quote from: Madness"It stood to reason that the ghouls would want some guarantee of success before casting their lot" (WLW, p564), Proyas' persepctive.
I believe that Serwa says something like "The ghouls mean us no harm" during their travels in WLW too.
Wow that got me really pumped... I can't wait to see more of lil' Moe either, and when you said that it had a really gloomy feeling that got me even more excited. The flashbacks of Sorweel sound like they are going to be interesting. The chapter in TJE that deals with Sorweel loosing his father is one of my favorite chapters in the whole series. I'm a huge supporter of Sorweel! Thanks for posting!
Yeah, he's growing up quite well - except his teen angst is a little out of proportion... what with a Dunyain, the Goddess, and Nonmen.
I really enjoy the revelations into Sorweel's life, too. He had skills within him to be a leader among the Ordeal, even without the Goddess' coaxing. Harweel lives on through his son, The Horse-Lord.
Cheers, Cursed Armada. Good to see you around.
Sorweel is us!
Look back and see how their society is shaped. No slavery is a big flag.
Sorweel is us being dumped into Earwa.
Quote from: Callan S.Sorweel is us!
Look back and see how their society is shaped. No slavery is a big flag.
Sorweel is us being dumped into Earwa.
Wow, I think this is really insightful. Even the way he gets off watching Serwa and Moenghus, the deception of his disguised face - it all smacks of the author dropping a reader avatar in the story.
Quote from: WillemBthe deception of his disguised faceThe only character who cannot be read.
Hrm. +1 for thoughts?
I hadn't actually thought of the disguised face as being a paralel to reader and book characters! Just thought he was our cultural template, slung into the book? Wow, even more intimate at the reader and book level as well - good point, WillemB! Cannot be read indeed, Dusk!
Sometimes I've mused on a real meta 'dissapear up its own arse' of Kellhus taking his reading of circumstance all the way to the author of the book itself, till he's putting one over on Scott. Or us.
Quote from: Callan S.Sometimes I've mused on a real meta 'dissapear up its own arse' of Kellhus taking his reading of circumstance all the way to the author of the book itself, till he's putting one over on Scott. Or us.
Kind of like Roland meeting King in one of the later Gunslinger books?
More mulling of this idea during the day. Made me think, following someone else's comment about Mimara being a non-character/or at least, inactive character like Sorweel, that Scott is wanting us to really think about our role as readers. Seems like there was a line in those endless posts responding to /prodding ROH where he said that the bits with Sorweel watching Moe Jr. and Serwa get busy were there to "problematize" the representation of that stuff within story so we'd reflect on it and our own response. Events experienced vicariously by Sorweel, judgment as rendered by Mimara and the Judging Eye; but really THE READER looking on as if at a peepshow, and the reader judging the characters in story.
Makes me think of the end of that movie SEVEN, where (spoiler alert) the final sin/murder is perpetrated by the very cop who is investigating the murders. To me this seemed to clearly point the finger back to the audience as if to say, "Hey! What about you? Think you were left out of the equation? What about your sins?"
Sciborg and Callan S come to mind, but I'm sure there are others.
You could always catalog them somewhere over here if you wanted :P
Sorweel and Moe have a private conversation. Sorweel asks wtf did Serwa do to him back there. Moe dodges the question and again asks how/why do you still love us.
Moe says to Sorweel "You are not who you think you are"
Sor asks Why. Moe ignores the questions for a while, then says "You will know soon enough"
Sor "When?"
Moe "Before we die"
In any event, Kellhus didn't fulfill Niom because Moenghus is not his son (unless metaphysical adoption etc). Perhaps Moe is the enemy and Sorweel is the son?
it would be pretty hilarious if sorweel was Kellhus' son. Because Sorweel is 'accusing' Moenghus and Sewa of incest. What they are doing is not incest in the strict sense of the word. But if Sorweel is Kellhus' son and sorweel wants to fuck Serwa, Sorweel wants to commit incest. Quite literally, Sorweel is projecting the crime/sin he wants to commit onto others and accusing them of being guilty of the crimes/sins he's committing in his mind/soul/heart.
The group ends up at some nameless ruins, that Moe affectionately dubs "Nameless".
Something is briefly mentioned by Serwa that some of the stones have strange bruises. (The Mark I guess) She says though that its so faint she can barely see it. Different than any she has seen before.
There is a scene were Serwa freaks out on Sor. She grabs him and starts screaming at him, asking him WHY DO YOU LOVE US. (It seems like she can almost recognize that he can hide/is hiding something but she can't tell what/how)
So then she casts some flashy spell thingy. He whines some more about being in pain then he suddenly starts having flashbacks and from the day his father was killed to now. Several scenes are recounted and he mentions the various scenes with his now dead slave and Yatwer.
Yeah its been mentioned before. Could be our first first-person POV of the compulsions.
One last thing, when the professor addressed Bakker, specifically when it was just them two talking and typically around the time of leaving, be called him Anasurimbor. Why?
I don't think it is, Madness. She is manipulated, yes, but why bother with the fucking if she was being compelled via sorcery?This is Aurang we're talking about. The question for him wouldn't be "why bother with the fucking?" it would be "why NOT?"