The False History of Earwa

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mrganondorf

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« on: October 06, 2015, 09:38:26 pm »
It is strongly suspected that Bakker has included some events into the accepted history of Earwa that are inaccurate.  Possibilities?

- the nonmen have doctored their history for human consumption.  They are so crazy now that they may even believe the lies they've told--the nonman viramsata.

- Seswatha edited his tale to steer the Mandate

- the Dunyain backstory delivered to Kellhus is specifically engineered to make him be what he is do

geoffrobro

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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2015, 12:41:04 am »
If only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.
                                --Ajencis, The First Analytic of Men.

FIRST FUCKING QUOTE OF THE SERIES!!! w
"Wutrim kut mi’puru kamuir!"

locke

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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2015, 05:27:03 am »
Isuphyrus is definitely viramsata.

SeswathaIsuphyrus is also definitely a new viramsata replacing the old (the sagas are probably more accurate than seswathas breath that is ground.)

And we also know that moenghus admits to being a part of a new viramsata as well.

All of these are false histories so to speak.

Presumably the inchoroi do this as well, perhaps the womb plague became possible because of new viramsata originating with them reAuthoring the recent past...

Or would no men be blind to viramsata or just require a viramsata a couple of orders of magnitude more complex to convince their time-unanchored perception of the world?

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:32:05 am by locke »

mrganondorf

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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 05:41:55 am »
If only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.
                                --Ajencis, The First Analytic of Men.

FIRST FUCKING QUOTE OF THE SERIES!!! w

WONDERFUL!

so, thinking about how crafty Bakker is, he's going to have us looking for viramsata where it isn't be and be it where it don't seem

more false history:

- Mimara is Esmi's child

- Kellhus is from Ishual

- Shauriatas is still alive

H

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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2015, 11:20:21 am »
Well, we already know that the Isûphiryas was filled with lies by the Nonmen who wrote it.  We might stretch this to say more so, filled with half-truths, incomplete stories and allusions that are not quite the whole story.

Then that is given to Seswatha, who we know was a definite liar, a clear manipulator, and all-around shady character, as the only remaining copy?  Seems dubious he wouldn't change anything, especially anything that didn't support his plan.  My hope is that one day, we'll get a book where we learn about what the real, original Ihrimsû version said.  I have little doubt there is still one in Ishterebinth, but no one probably reads it because it's too depressing.

The Saga are also not totally factual, not as the Madate knows it, and yet, the Mandate are being lied to by Seswatha as well, so who knows how far off they really are.

Remember that the Tusk is also filled with lies.  The Inchoroi made it to manipulate the Ketyai to invade Earwa and kill Nonmen.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Aural

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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2015, 01:05:01 pm »
My hope is that one day, we'll get a book where we learn about what the real, original Ihrimsû version said.

My hope is that one day Bakker will publish the actual Isûphiryas - in the original Ihrimsû.

MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2015, 01:32:52 pm »
If only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.
                                --Ajencis, The First Analytic of Men.

FIRST FUCKING QUOTE OF THE SERIES!!! w

WONDERFUL!

so, thinking about how crafty Bakker is, he's going to have us looking for viramsata where it isn't be and be it where it don't seem

more false history:

- Mimara is Esmi's child

- Kellhus is from Ishual

- Shauriatas is still alive

I've never taking into account that viramsata may be a part of the narrative. That's mind boggling.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 01:46:42 pm »

Remember that the Tusk is also filled with lies.  The Inchoroi made it to manipulate the Ketyai to invade Earwa and kill Nonmen.

Yea, and then reinterpreted again by Inri Sejunus. Been having a conversation about the spiritual value and such of everything on Earwa. And, the denizen of Earwa base their assumptions of this value on the Tusk. Which was made by Aliens and then reinterpreted by someone else millennia later, who thought it was holy. You think they might have things a bit screwed up spiritually on Earwa?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

locke

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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 02:30:45 pm »
Absolutely!

The tusk is viramsata and SejenusTusk is also viramsata, can't believe I didn't think of those last night.

Where does that put Fane?


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MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 02:34:33 pm »
Bakker has said on record, that there is one true way to worship/believe on Earwa, correct? All signs point to Fanim being the true religion, IMHO. Who knows, maybe no one religion on Earwa has it all right.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2015, 03:01:57 pm »
Bakker has said on record, that there is one true way to worship/believe on Earwa, correct? All signs point to Fanim being the true religion, IMHO. Who knows, maybe no one religion on Earwa has it all right.

I'm still not buying that.  I could have sworn that he had said "there are right and wrong ways" which to me meant that if you back a god, worship them how the god wants you to, then you'll be spared Hell by that god.  If you don't worship correctly, or at all, then you are at the mercy of the naked Outside.

If Fanimry was "correct" then nearly the whole of Earwa is already damned, which I can't really believe.  Yatwer actually seems as real, or more so, than the Solitary God.  All Yatwerian's a damned?  I do not follow this.

As for Fane?  Yes, I think most of his "prophecy" is made up too.  I've discussed before where I feel it is plausible that he used existent desert traditions to craft a faith to unify all the tribes, making Fanimry definite viramsata.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2015, 03:07:18 pm »
Yea, I believe your right, right and wrong ways of believing. Sorry, my bad. Anyway, as I said, its most likely that no one religion has it all right. Bits and pieces here and there maybe.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Garet Jax

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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2015, 04:22:40 pm »
"Entire nations will be damned" iirc

H

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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2015, 04:37:32 pm »
"Entire nations will be damned" iirc

Yeah, he did mention that, but I thought it would be more a case of, "they just backed the wrong horse," rather than "this was the One True Way the whole time."  In other words, maybe Kellhus really does succeed in becoming a god and possibly kills several along the way, leaving their worshipers to the whims of the Outside?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

mrganondorf

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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2015, 05:42:38 pm »
If only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.
                                --Ajencis, The First Analytic of Men.

FIRST FUCKING QUOTE OF THE SERIES!!! w

WONDERFUL!

so, thinking about how crafty Bakker is, he's going to have us looking for viramsata where it isn't be and be it where it don't seem

more false history:

- Mimara is Esmi's child

- Kellhus is from Ishual

- Shauriatas is still alive

I've never taking into account that viramsata may be a part of the narrative. That's mind boggling.

ain't it cool?  so many possibilities!

- Kellhus' book is def viramsata

- IF PON is literally written by Akka (as The Compendium), then who knows what what is what: Akka just makes up Inrau, Akka portrays the Mandate unfairly, Akka portrays Kellhus as logic machine when in reality he is way more like Jesus/Sejenus, Akka misrepresents Esmi, Akka down plays the strength of nonmandate sorcerers, Akka exaggerates his own abilities to kick demon ass

- the whole thing with Bakker's obsession with ignorance--according to Nanaferi, ignorance is the royal road to salvation.  if all of these viramsata's are fucking with people's heads, then being ignorant of them might be the only way to eventually find the truth?

- there is no original nonman tongue

- there was no "breaking of the gates."  humans lived in Earwa, then nonmen showed up in a golden ark.  humans kill nonmen with help of nonmen slaves (Inchoroi)

- Ses never hung on Dagliash wall.  He tortured Mek who was hanging around on the wall.  That's how come Ses could leave Dagliash and how come Mek is still with the Consult

ps locke, you write my favorite Bakker theories, just so you know