The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: WeAreProyas on August 13, 2017, 10:28:12 pm

Title: We Are Proyas
Post by: WeAreProyas on August 13, 2017, 10:28:12 pm
Thanks to Mr. Bakker for creating a uniquely enjoyable reading experience.

Thanks to the online community for helping me to better understand what the hell I have been reading. By both filling in where I missed something AND by putting me at ease when I thought I had missed something but where in fact it was still a mystery.

I read spoilers prior to reading TUC, which probably tempered my reaction. However, as a casual reader I felt I was going to need to “Cliffs notes” ahead of time to improve my understanding.

For many, it seems that Mr. Bakker’s comments post release have generated as much frustration as the book itself. I feel the opposite; they clarified a lot for me. He constructed the nature of this ride intentionally, we all chose to participate and could have gotten off at any time. I salute him for sticking with his approach. In the long-run I think the non-traditional decisions he made will cost him financially in terms of book sales but he created a truly memorable story.

These two quotes said it all for me:
“…so if you were expecting a traditional discharging of narrative mysteries, you were bound to be disappointed…”

“Frustration on the part of a good number of readers--we all have varying tolerances for uncertainty--is something I take as a sign of achieving my narrative and thematic goals. I would have been bummed if some hadn't reacted negatively.”

I think elusiveness and obscurity it is a very effective tool for world building and engaging a reader. The reader fills in the gaps and infuses a world with their perspective. Mystery and narrative dysphoria creates online communities like this, which only enhances the reading experience. The fact that I still don’t know what to think of Kellhus is both disappointing/frustrating and awesome at the same time.

The non-traditional aspects of Mr. Bakker’s books are what pulled me along. In a traditional book, Akka would have been the voice of the author or the stand-in for the reader. Perfectly positioned to inform, observe and judge. However, in the end I believe the reader is really Proyas, completely mind-fucked, used, and wrung out. After volumes of depravity that “What have you done?” scene was soul-droppingly amazing.

Despite all my praise, I am not sure how I feel moving forward with Mr. Bakker’s work. I maintained a high level of “tolerances for uncertainty” throughout the series, but I think I am too traditional for Mr. Bakker and in the end I want reveals. I want understanding. I can take nihilism, shades of grey, obscurity, and the end of the world but I want some narrative closure in a book that the author says is the end they imagined.

I was excited to hear there was a glossary in TUC but that thing is a giant troll to the reader. It became a joke as I read, the number of times I flipped to the back only to find some useless piece of information about a battle or geographic feature but not the thing I wanted. It was the worst kind of filler.

It left me wondering if Mr. Bakker has a clear understanding of his own creation. Has he been spending his time taking a fleshed out world and intentionally making it mysterious or has he been simply writing without a substantive perspective and leaving it to the online community to create substance?

So thank you Mr. Bakker, you constructed a literary ride unlike anything I have experienced. However, I think I am getting off the ride.





Who am I kidding? When is the next book coming out?

 
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Nil Sertrax on August 13, 2017, 11:36:09 pm
Great post...I wish  I had written it!
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Woden on August 14, 2017, 05:55:49 am
Yes, awesome post.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 14, 2017, 06:38:39 am
Kellhus would have been the wish fulfillment character, with Achamian as a more destructive, drunker Gandalf. Kellhus fits the farm boy entering the world as its destined savior trope to a T... just, y'know, ascetic eugenics philosophical warrior monk sociopath instead of village idiot #62,012.

One of the things I love most about Bakker's work is, rather than eschewing overutilized standard fantasy tropes, he wields each and every damn one of them... but subverts them to hell and back so many times, they're barely recognizable in the end.

Quote
Who am I kidding? When is the next book coming out?

Not soon enough, my friend.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 14, 2017, 07:07:22 am
we all chose to participate and could have gotten off at any time
No. We were faited since Creation to read these books. The White-Luck-Readers.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Woden on August 14, 2017, 09:52:54 am
we all chose to participate and could have gotten off at any time
No. We were faited since Creation to read these books. The White-Luck-Readers.

(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)

I hope that Bakker don't fuck us with a No-God/Kelmomas trick.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 15, 2017, 04:36:35 pm

we all chose to participate and could have gotten off at any time
No. We were faited since Creation to read these books. The White-Luck-Readers.

(http://www.prisonfreak.com/foro/images/smilies/121.gif)

I hope that Bakker don't fuck us with a No-God/Kelmomas trick.

This is great!

And great post, WeAreProyas.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 07:18:32 pm
I think, WeAreProyas, that if you spend some time wandering the forum from now until whenever 'the end' might be, you'll find an increasing number of people that think similarly regarding your post in between releases. Though we only have 2 data points, it seems that every time a book comes out there's a big "WHOOSH" of people blowing in feeling devastated and then leaving. I think they always come back though, when the next book comes out. Each post places a brick in the monument that is the legacy of Bakker's TSA. Though we know not what it will become, we are building it. Those that toil shape it more, I think, than those who pass by.

A deep part of my interest in these books has become watching those who read it. The dramatic difference in perception is utterly fascinating to me. We seem to have quite the interesting intersection of humanity around, and with that the myriad interpretations that come from each mind. How seldom we agree on even whats written down is amazing. Like a living breathing incantation of the darkness explored in TSA. I hope you stick around and light your own candle against the dark :) .
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: gtownwr on August 23, 2017, 07:57:49 pm
Great post that pretty much sums up my feelings exactly.  I have loved the series more than any other, but I am really struggling to get over the lack of narrative closure.  I was along for all the genre trope deconstruction and the No-God walks ending, but my commitment to at least literary structure has made me wonder if it was worth it to read these books over and over.  I feel disappointed despite not wanting to feel that way.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Wilshire on August 23, 2017, 08:02:52 pm
Great post that pretty much sums up my feelings exactly.  I have loved the series more than any other, but I am really struggling to get over the lack of narrative closure.  I was along for all the genre trope deconstruction and the No-God walks ending, but my commitment to at least literary structure has made me wonder if it was worth it to read these books over and over.  I feel disappointed despite not wanting to feel that way.

Given many of the reactions, I think it might be fair to say that Bakker didn't hit the ending perfectly. He took a lot of risks, thought some things were more clear than they were maybe. Granted, part of that may have also been the point as well, but I wouldn't say your feeling is invalid (whether or not I agree is irrelevant).
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Duskweaver on August 24, 2017, 09:37:40 am
Maybe Bakker's flaw as an author is that he thinks his readers are as clever as he thinks he is?
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Woden on August 24, 2017, 09:53:52 am
Probably.  ;D
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: gtownwr on August 24, 2017, 01:42:30 pm
Maybe Bakker's flaw as an author is that he thinks his readers are as clever as he thinks he is?

This made me LOL.  I hope my post didn't come across more negative than I actually feel.  I will admit I was hoping the trope inversion would involve Khellus winning but not being the hero the trope would have had.  So when he got salted I was pretty said and I'm still hoping he made it through somehow.  And I have really tried to find all the silver linings.  My feelings are disappointed, frustrated, sad, but my brain is seeing how this series has made me analyze the way I read and interact with books and also the way I put maybe too much stock in the ending instead of the journey, and helped me see that maybe I should be putting more stock in the experience that takes years and years than in the end that takes 10 minutes.  It had made me think, which I know was at least part of his goal.  I just still have these pesty feelings.  :)
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 24, 2017, 02:10:48 pm
I think, WeAreProyas, that if you spend some time wandering the forum from now until whenever 'the end' might be, you'll find an increasing number of people that think similarly regarding your post in between releases. Though we only have 2 data points, it seems that every time a book comes out there's a big "WHOOSH" of people blowing in feeling devastated and then leaving. I think they always come back though, when the next book comes out. Each post places a brick in the monument that is the legacy of Bakker's TSA. Though we know not what it will become, we are building it. Those that toil shape it more, I think, than those who pass by.

A deep part of my interest in these books has become watching those who read it. The dramatic difference in perception is utterly fascinating to me. We seem to have quite the interesting intersection of humanity around, and with that the myriad interpretations that come from each mind. How seldom we agree on even whats written down is amazing. Like a living breathing incantation of the darkness explored in TSA. I hope you stick around and light your own candle against the dark :) .

+1

Maybe Bakker's flaw as an author is that he thinks his readers are as clever as he thinks he is?

Whether or not it's his "flaw," he does think some of his readers are even cleverer than he is (not me, by the way)...

The problem therein is his self-deprecating nature: he thinks he's less smart than he is and that he's more average than he is.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Yellow on August 24, 2017, 07:17:55 pm
Nah, he thinks he's very clever indeed.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 25, 2017, 10:34:04 pm

Whether or not it's his "flaw," he does think some of his readers are even cleverer than he is (not me, by the way)...

The problem therein is his self-deprecating nature: he thinks he's less smart than he is and that he's more average than he is.

It's often remarked on how idiots are blind to their own stupidity, but few notice how the intelligent are often equally blind to their intellect, and the issues this can cause when dealing with others.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 26, 2017, 03:25:41 pm
Straying into Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)?
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: WeAreProyas on August 27, 2017, 11:21:59 pm
Dunning-Kruger effect....I really need to remember that one.

I decided to go back through Mr. Bakker's online comments, parsing for understanding about his intent. (I have given up looking for narrative understanding.) I must admit the comments have pushed me back towards "getting off the ride".

Here are two more quotes that I think fit with my We Are Proyas thesis.

"The ignorance stuff is more retail than that, part of my attempt to write an inverse scripture, one preaching suspicion as opposed to belief."
"But I will still insist that those who do feel betrayed by the ending actually 'get' the book in a way more profound than they know."

So we, as readers, were intended to feel betrayed?
Should we, as readers, be suspicious of Mr. Bakker, the author?

It is almost as if he is intentionally setting up an adversarial relationship between himself and the reader. Explicitly stating, don't trust me and then laughing at us when we continue to try and "understand/decipher" him/the book.

"But what can I do aside from shrug, reaffirm that I did work tremendously hard on this final book, and reassert that frustrating our meaning-making reflexes was paramount among my goals?"

"It's crash space. A place where every judgment of error doubles as an affirmation of success." - This quote admittedly confuses me a bit, but it seems like it is relevant. Is he saying every judgement of error on the part of the readers is taken as a success on the part of the author? Inverse Fire indeed.

"But one thing you will not get is a perfectly edited, entirely consistent encyclopedic version, simply because, for one, some of the inconsistencies are intentional, and secondly, because error/omission free encyclopedia are the product of the Enlightenment. Pre-Enlightenment compendiums are gloriously messy things…." (Italics are mine.)

I am sorry, but in Mr. Bakker's own words...I smell a postmodern rat. I am big a fan of the Enlightenment.

"I'm sure those on the short end, dismayed by the indeterminacy, would be inclined to smell a postmodern rat....."
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 28, 2017, 12:00:23 pm
So we, as readers, were intended to feel betrayed?
Should we, as readers, be suspicious of Mr. Bakker, the author?

It is almost as if he is intentionally setting up an adversarial relationship between himself and the reader. Explicitly stating, don't trust me and then laughing at us when we continue to try and "understand/decipher" him/the book.
His point isn't that you shouldn't trust him, but that you should've distrusted your own expectations and need for unambiguity.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: generalguy on August 28, 2017, 08:31:57 pm
So we, as readers, were intended to feel betrayed?
Should we, as readers, be suspicious of Mr. Bakker, the author?

It is almost as if he is intentionally setting up an adversarial relationship between himself and the reader. Explicitly stating, don't trust me and then laughing at us when we continue to try and "understand/decipher" him/the book.
His point isn't that you shouldn't trust him, but that you should've distrusted your own expectations and need for unambiguity.


...is that what he's calling it now? Better authors than he have tried with the subversion of form and expectations (it's called postmodernism!) and none of them have to fall back on the "well you just weren't smart enough" angle to justify it. The problem is that you have to double down on it and really go for it, not this half-assed post-hoc justification of unclarity. Either he wanted to write an epic fantasy type story that fails (fine) or he wanted to fuck with your expectations and write a postmodern deconstruction of the epic fantasy (fine) but some middling combo of the two that doesn't work in the end (not deconstructed enough and yet not conformal).

Basically I lost a lot of respect for him when he claimed he was pulling some kind of long con. If you're gonna con me, make me believe. He's no Kellhus, that Bakker.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 28, 2017, 09:44:13 pm
Either he wanted to write an epic fantasy type story that fails (fine) or he wanted to fuck with your expectations and write a postmodern deconstruction of the epic fantasy (fine) but some middling combo of the two that doesn't work in the end (not deconstructed enough and yet not conformal).
The way I see it, it's none of the above. It's a work that explores certain themes and expectations in ways both direct and indirect. Whether you or me get that is irrelevant. It's in the narrative, structurally and in the voices of the characters. It's not there to make anyone happy (the nature of the series' themes should by no means make people happy). It's not there for fun or enjoyment. It's there because Bakker wanted to convey his views on it.

If it's uninteresting to you, that's fine. If it upsets you, that's also fine. None of those outcomes diminish the work itself, though.

Nor does the fact that the series hasn't brought me any kind of happiness (at least in the beginning). When I started to read, I was actually genuinely unhappy because of it. But I was interested in Bakker's ideas and perspective, and as of yet he hasn't failed to consistently provide those. I feel he is being true to himself and his design. And I never thought said design was to write something that comforts people, narratively or otherwise. My opinion is, it's quite the opposite.

This is probably why he said that people who feel betrayed get it. It's not like he wanted to betray them. It's one of his points that their expectations at some point will.

Basically I lost a lot of respect for him when he claimed he was pulling some kind of long con. If you're gonna con me, make me believe. He's no Kellhus, that Bakker.
My take on it is, he wasn't conning you. He was actually always completely upfront about his intentions and the nature of his work. And therein he demonstrates how we all con ourselves.

Because of that aspect of the series I prefer to consider the Second Apocalypse literary fiction. Unlike genre fiction, literary fiction isn't there to (necessarily) make readers enjoy themselves.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 28, 2017, 10:23:26 pm
Good post, SmilerLoki.

I actually mentioned that to FB and Camlost recently. I feel like with TGO/TUC Bakker has firmly fulfilled his promise that TSA is a work of literature. I wouldn't be surprised to see the data and find that those disappointed by TUC are mostly strict genre fans.

I've wondered recently that Bakker's work might serve as a litmus test for needing cognitive closure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)).
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: generalguy on August 28, 2017, 10:31:03 pm
Either he wanted to write an epic fantasy type story that fails (fine) or he wanted to fuck with your expectations and write a postmodern deconstruction of the epic fantasy (fine) but some middling combo of the two that doesn't work in the end (not deconstructed enough and yet not conformal).
The way I see it, it's none of the above. It's a work that explores certain themes and expectations in ways both direct and indirect. Whether you or me get that is irrelevant. It's in the narrative, structurally and in the voices of the characters. It's not there to make anyone happy (the nature of the series' themes should by no means make people happy). It's not there for fun or enjoyment. It's there because Bakker wanted to convey his views on it.

If it's uninteresting to you, that's fine. If it upsets you, that's also fine. None of those outcomes diminish the work itself, though.

Nor does the fact that the series hasn't brought me any kind of happiness (at least in the beginning). When I started to read, I was actually genuinely unhappy because of it. But I was interested in Bakker's ideas and perspective, and as of yet he hasn't failed to consistently provide those. I feel he is being true to himself and his design. And I never thought said design was to write something that comforts people, narratively or otherwise. My opinion is, it's quite the opposite.

This is probably why he said that people who feel betrayed get it. It's not like he wanted to betray them. It's one of his points that their expectations at some point will.

Basically I lost a lot of respect for him when he claimed he was pulling some kind of long con. If you're gonna con me, make me believe. He's no Kellhus, that Bakker.
My take on it is, he wasn't conning you. He was actually always completely upfront about his intentions and the nature of his work. And therein he demonstrates how we all con ourselves.

Because of that aspect of the series I prefer to consider the Second Apocalypse literary fiction. Unlike genre fiction, literary fiction isn't there to (necessarily) make readers enjoy themselves.
Sure, I get that. I read a lot of works that are intended to have a certain effect that isn't joy or happiness on my part

I'm just saying that by the end of tuc I felt betrayed in the sense that I thought bakker would have written his ending better than he did, and found the twists kind of lame and unforeshadowed by the earlier books even after rereading them. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but chekov had his guns for a reason, they help to suspend disbelief. The ajokli thing just felt lame in retrospect since there's minimal buildup and too deus ex machina - literally in the sense that dunyain are human computers.

Im more disappointed than angry but for something that was hyped the way it was TUC couldn't deliver. Too much setup and not enough resolution for me.

If he purely wanted his readers to feel betrayal I think he could have done it better than claiming a flawed book as some kind of masterstroke in reader manipulation.




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Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 12:00:00 am
Good post, SmilerLoki.

I actually mentioned that to FB and Camlost recently. I feel like with TGO/TUC Bakker has firmly fulfilled his promise that TSA is a work of literature. I wouldn't be surprised to see the data and find that those disappointed by TUC are mostly strict genre fans.

I've wondered recently that Bakker's work might serve as a litmus test for needing cognitive closure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)).
Thank you! And I agree.

If he purely wanted his readers to feel betrayal I think he could have done it better than claiming a flawed book as some kind of masterstroke in reader manipulation.
This isn't at all how I see his statements. In my opinion, he's saying that reactions he's aware of are consistent with the ones he imagined when he was writing the book. That doesn't mean the book has no flaws; nobody's perfect.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 29, 2017, 12:28:28 am
This isn't at all how I see his statements. In my opinion, he's saying that reactions he's aware of are consistent with the ones he imagined when he was writing the book. That doesn't mean the book has no flaws; nobody's perfect.
Exactly. Just as he probably foresaw some people breathing a sigh of relief in the face of a Consult victory, he foresaw others making angry forum posts about it.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 01:32:51 am
Exactly. Just as he probably foresaw some people breathing a sigh of relief in the face of a Consult victory, he foresaw others making angry forum posts about it.
More about the abruptness of the ending and lack of clarity about who's right and who's wrong, I think.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Monkhound on August 29, 2017, 06:07:30 am
Exactly. Just as he probably foresaw some people breathing a sigh of relief in the face of a Consult victory, he foresaw others making angry forum posts about it.
More about the abruptness of the ending and lack of clarity about who's right and who's wrong, I think.

As had been discussed earlier both on TSA and confirmed by Bakker, there is no-one right or wrong, which is part of the beauty of the whole: There are only gray areas, just as these exist in our everyday perception, just add there always exists a different perception of real life events, no matter how big or puny these are. That goes both for the characters and for our interpretation. We're left to decide for ourselves about the good and the bad, or preferably who we deem "most moral", if we need to.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: SmilerLoki on August 29, 2017, 06:16:59 am
As had been discussed earlier both on TSA and confirmed by Bakker, there is no-one right or wrong, which is part of the beauty of the whole: There are only gray areas, just as these exist in our everyday perception, just add there always exists a different perception of real life events, no matter how big or puny these are. That goes both for the characters and for our interpretation. We're left to decide for ourselves about the good and the bad, or preferably who we deem "most moral", if we need to.
Which, as expected, doesn't sit well with many readers.

Personally, I'm completely fine with it. But I also was ready for it from the beginning. It was always clear in the narrative structure for me.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Duskweaver on August 29, 2017, 12:44:57 pm
I've wondered recently that Bakker's work might serve as a litmus test for needing cognitive closure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)).
I think this is something well-worth investigating. I certainly seem to fit your hypothesis. I have a ludicrously low NCS, and so far all the ambiguities people have held up as examples of Bakker being terrible are the things I enjoyed most about TSA. Part of me would quite like it if Bakker just kept on writing new instalments and never actually concluded the storyline at all. The journey is so fascinating and thought-provoking that I don't ultimately care where we end up. I guess it also fits in with my real-world philosophical/religious inclinations, in that I'm what I call an Inverse Buddhist: I believe the Buddha was mostly right, except that I don't see escaping the endless cycle of existence as a worthy goal. I'm quite content to go round and round the cycle forever. Existence is, for want of a better term, a hell of a lot of fun.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 29, 2017, 05:24:47 pm
I think this is something well-worth investigating. I certainly seem to fit your hypothesis. I have a ludicrously low NCS, and so far all the ambiguities people have held up as examples of Bakker being terrible are the things I enjoyed most about TSA.

Thanks, Duskweaver :).

I certainly think it's an interesting thought.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: TaoHorror on August 30, 2017, 01:06:25 am
I'm with Duskweaver on this one - let the show never end. I loved this story and don't get the sense he screwed us all over for pleasure - just too much minutia and delicious detail for something as base as that to be his ultimate aim. Bakker knows he'll have critics ( The Sound and the Fury had literary critics at the time of release, now widely considered about the greatest American novel ever written ). I agree, this is literature, not "just" fantasy/sci-fi.

The ending was abrupt, but timely in my opinion - I was emotionally exhausted reading this stuff, but loved it as an athlete loves exertion taxing our limits - it's not the triumph, but the struggle. The ending so extremely clever - it was a surprise, yet it was prophesy as well. And Akka has to feel the ultimate dupe he 1/2 unwittingly enabled the 2nd Apocalypse ( can't escape all the blame on he didn't know, much of the PON dealt with his reservations and yet he still taught Kellhus the Gnosis ); one could argue he brought about it as much as Kellhus ( he just HAD to drag along that son of his! ). If the argument is Bakker fucked us over by salting the hero, well we still have Mimara and Akka ( well, maybe, not sure how I see anybody escaping alive ). I'm figuring Kellhus's grandson may play prominently in the resolution of this story ... that, or we get to see what life is like on Earwa with less than 144k people and if that does indeed stave off damnation for the remaining Consult.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: solipsisticurge on August 30, 2017, 06:22:14 am
To me, there is no real distinction between genre fiction and literary fiction. Any novel, in any setting or style, can attempt to use artistry to explore and convey complex themes, just as any novel with or without genre identification can utterly fail to do so, or not try at all. Mediocre and shitty authors abound, regardless of genre or lack thereof (though perhaps I'm being pretentious associating a lack of literary elements in a book written for escapist enjoyment with mediocrity ad hoc).

I think this is half of Bakker's point, really.


Part of me would quite like it if Bakker just kept on writing new instalments and never actually concluded the storyline at all. The journey is so fascinating and thought-provoking that I don't ultimately care where we end up. I guess it also fits in with my real-world philosophical/religious inclinations, in that I'm what I call an Inverse Buddhist: I believe the Buddha was mostly right, except that I don't see escaping the endless cycle of existence as a worthy goal. I'm quite content to go round and round the cycle forever. Existence is, for want of a better term, a hell of a lot of fun.

1. I'm halfway with you, to a point, on the series, though I do desire some narrative closure and explanation of the setting, to a degree which I know will find me disappointed once the series is properly concluded. But TSA on perpetual annual release? Count me in.

2. I think I'm the exact opposite of your "inverse Buddhist" thinking. Existence is a relentless series of menial tasks whose only long-term purpose is to perpetuate said existence, peppered with rare moments of bliss through distraction. Oh, woe unto thee whose eyes must ponder mine angst.

Straying into Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)?

I'm very glad this has a name which I can add to my repertoire of specific nomenclature I possess a marginal comprehension of.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: generalguy on August 30, 2017, 02:56:43 pm
I've wondered recently that Bakker's work might serve as a litmus test for needing cognitive closure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)).
I think this is something well-worth investigating. I certainly seem to fit your hypothesis. I have a ludicrously low NCS, and so far all the ambiguities people have held up as examples of Bakker being terrible are the things I enjoyed most about TSA. Part of me would quite like it if Bakker just kept on writing new instalments and never actually concluded the storyline at all. The journey is so fascinating and thought-provoking that I don't ultimately care where we end up. I guess it also fits in with my real-world philosophical/religious inclinations, in that I'm what I call an Inverse Buddhist: I believe the Buddha was mostly right, except that I don't see escaping the endless cycle of existence as a worthy goal. I'm quite content to go round and round the cycle forever. Existence is, for want of a better term, a hell of a lot of fun.


Imo I think bakkers short stories and world building are better than his long narratives and a collection of vignettes of earwa would be a good way to approach Kindle singles or something. I certainly would like read stories set in same world

But I think if you start an epic fantasy tale, give no indications that you are subverting the form, then pull out a Psyche!!!! Gotcha at the end that's uncool. You gotta own up to your written actions




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Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Sausuna on August 30, 2017, 03:07:27 pm
I've wondered recently that Bakker's work might serve as a litmus test for needing cognitive closure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closure_(psychology)).
I think this is something well-worth investigating. I certainly seem to fit your hypothesis. I have a ludicrously low NCS, and so far all the ambiguities people have held up as examples of Bakker being terrible are the things I enjoyed most about TSA. Part of me would quite like it if Bakker just kept on writing new instalments and never actually concluded the storyline at all. The journey is so fascinating and thought-provoking that I don't ultimately care where we end up. I guess it also fits in with my real-world philosophical/religious inclinations, in that I'm what I call an Inverse Buddhist: I believe the Buddha was mostly right, except that I don't see escaping the endless cycle of existence as a worthy goal. I'm quite content to go round and round the cycle forever. Existence is, for want of a better term, a hell of a lot of fun.


Imo I think bakkers short stories and world building are better than his long narratives and a collection of vignettes of earwa would be a good way to approach Kindle singles or something. I certainly would like read stories set in same world

But I think if you start an epic fantasy tale, give no indications that you are subverting the form, then pull out a Psyche!!!! Gotcha at the end that's uncool. You gotta own up to your written actions




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I don't know, I'm not sure it is fair to claim that Bakker wasn't clearly subverting form, both with character archetypes and layout. Wasn't this something he address previously?
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2017, 05:14:58 pm
I'm very glad this has a name which I can add to my repertoire of specific nomenclature I possess a marginal comprehension of.

I got a bunch for you, fam 8).

Imo I think bakkers short stories and world building are better than his long narratives and a collection of vignettes of earwa would be a good way to approach Kindle singles or something. I certainly would like read stories set in same world

I don't disagree with you, though, - unlike Road Brothers or Sharp Ends - I think Bakker's Atrocity Tales haven't been great stand-alones, even for world junkies.

Whole separate topic, methinks.

But I think if you start an epic fantasy tale, give no indications that you are subverting the form, then pull out a Psyche!!!! Gotcha at the end that's uncool. You gotta own up to your written actions

I don't know, I'm not sure it is fair to claim that Bakker wasn't clearly subverting form, both with character archetypes and layout. Wasn't this something he address previously?

He's definitely been saying it for years and years in a variety of different ways. The fact that he doesn't put a damned foreword in the text as such is almost criminal, as generalguy is noting ;).

I'm still waiting for the reactions of my three high-school friends regarding TUC. It'll be interesting as they pay no attention whatsoever to what happens online.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: generalguy on August 30, 2017, 05:29:40 pm


He's definitely been saying it for years and years in a variety of different ways. The fact that he doesn't put a damned foreword in the text as such is almost criminal, as generalguy is noting ;).

I'm still waiting for the reactions of my three high-school friends regarding TUC. It'll be interesting as they pay no attention whatsoever to what happens online.

Ehh if he's saying it and it's not in the text its secondary at best. Sure there are subversions of some basic tropes but the core story is pretty standard fantasy epic. That's what I mean by the gotcha--if he's gonna claim that the work is intended to be a deconstruction or subversion of the standard fantasy arc then imo it doesn't do it that well, just that the ending is a downer rather than a LOTR victory isn't enough. Entire plot threads are irrelevant or unresolved and some critical metaphysical mechanics are just completely unexplained and you just gotta roll with it. This is what I mean by he needed an editor: you need someone informed but able to think like a reader who certainly doesn't haven't authorial level context so that they can poke the author into explaining what is going on.



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Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2017, 05:42:44 pm
He's definitely been saying it for years and years in a variety of different ways. The fact that he doesn't put a damned foreword in the text as such is almost criminal, as generalguy is noting ;).

I'm still waiting for the reactions of my three high-school friends regarding TUC. It'll be interesting as they pay no attention whatsoever to what happens online.

Ehh if he's saying it and it's not in the text its secondary at best. Sure there are subversions of some basic tropes but the core story is pretty standard fantasy epic. That's what I mean by the gotcha--if he's gonna claim that the work is intended to be a deconstruction or subversion of the standard fantasy arc then imo it doesn't do it that well, just that the ending is a downer rather than a LOTR victory isn't enough. Entire plot threads are irrelevant or unresolved and some critical metaphysical mechanics are just completely unexplained and you just gotta roll with it. This is what I mean by he needed an editor: you need someone informed but able to think like a reader who certainly doesn't haven't authorial level context so that they can poke the author into explaining what is going on.

It's an interesting crux, that's for sure.

- He's had an online contemporary fandom since at least TWP's release on Zombie Three Seas - "claiming things" was quite public for a long time (though I agree with you, something like a foreward like WHCB in the books would have clearly done him a world of good).
- He does have people who sub-in for the ignorant reader - his agent, the person Overlook hires to outsource his editing, a number of draft readers who are readers, not fans (whether Overlook in particular handles this badly is up to debate).
- I haven't really seen anyone take the time to break down the narrative arcs in TAE or its constituent books (aside maybe Hiro, pail, and I privately). Achamian, Mimara, Esmenet, Sorweel, whomever, have narrative arcs, they just clearly aren't the ones that a large subset of readers wanted. That doesn't mean they don't have arcs.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Sausuna on August 30, 2017, 05:56:44 pm


He's definitely been saying it for years and years in a variety of different ways. The fact that he doesn't put a damned foreword in the text as such is almost criminal, as generalguy is noting ;).

I'm still waiting for the reactions of my three high-school friends regarding TUC. It'll be interesting as they pay no attention whatsoever to what happens online.

Ehh if he's saying it and it's not in the text its secondary at best. Sure there are subversions of some basic tropes but the core story is pretty standard fantasy epic. That's what I mean by the gotcha--if he's gonna claim that the work is intended to be a deconstruction or subversion of the standard fantasy arc then imo it doesn't do it that well, just that the ending is a downer rather than a LOTR victory isn't enough. Entire plot threads are irrelevant or unresolved and some critical metaphysical mechanics are just completely unexplained and you just gotta roll with it. This is what I mean by he needed an editor: you need someone informed but able to think like a reader who certainly doesn't haven't authorial level context so that they can poke the author into explaining what is going on.



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In what way would you define it as 'pretty standard epic fantasy'? Not to be overly pedantic, but I think the variance in characters is more than enough to set it apart. None of the characters are really 'good' in any traditional sense. You have a ragged old wizard dragging his love's daughter that he impregnated across an entire continent with a bunch of psychopaths to discover the secret of the god-emperors Mentat whale-mother origins. You've got a twin-souled murder child plotting out the subtle assassination of all his siblings to secure his mother's love. You've got said super emperor leading nations to defeat alien cenobites, and damning them all along the way by eating bio-engineered murder beast meat (with countless illusions to cannibalism) that makes them into images of aforementioned murder beasts. 

You also have Esmenet, but I honestly didn't care for her story. I honestly kept expecting a twist. Though, I mentioned elsewhere, I kept expecting Kellhus to have joined the Consult. All this said, it isn't the end of the series. I think the shock comes more that we (or at least I) wanted to believe the depraved Consult could be beaten. I'd say it is human nature to want 'the good guys' to win.


I will agree with Madness, I think a forward would be nice. I didn't care for the ending until I read Bakker's comments on it. Came to appreciate it a little more.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: SuJuroit on August 30, 2017, 06:14:25 pm
Yeah, in many ways I see TSA as the polar opposite of "standard fantasy epic".  Your generic standard fantasy epic typically involves a heroic character who rises from humble origins to discover he has a great destiny.  He meets true companions, finds a wise mentor, and "levels up".  He suffers losses and setbacks, but ultimately overcomes them and defeats the Big Bad.

In TSA we have a sociopath who descends from exalted origins (we're constantly told how superior the Dunyain consider themselves to the Worldborn) and his original purpose was to kill his father.  He uses and manipulates everybody he meets, making the world and everyone in it his tool.  He betrays his "mentor" and takes from him everything of value.  He does gain the power of the Gnosis, but his kung fu and manipulation skills were maxxed out when he left Ishual.  He conquers the known world with little difficulty.  And when he finally has his showdown with the Big Bad (who may not actually be worse than he is), he loses and dies. 
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2017, 06:40:09 pm
Quote from: Bakker, 2005 (https://web.archive.org/web/20110524032833/http://www.boomtron.com/2005/05/on-the-spot-interview-r-scott-bakker/)

That was where the original idea for the ‘Kellhus meme’ came from – I think. The next step in his evolution came with my readings of Theodor Adorno. The dominant tradition in mainstream literature is to depict protagonists stranded in a potentially meaningless world trying to find some kind of compensatory meaning – usually through some conception of ‘love.’ You’ve literally seen this pattern countless times. Kellhus offered me an opportunity to turn this model on its head. What makes fantasy distinct is that the worlds depicted tend to be indisputably meaningful – in a sense that’s what makes them fantastic! I thought to myself, what would a story of a protagonist stranded in a meaningful world struggling to hold onto meaninglessness look like?
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: TLEILAXU on August 30, 2017, 06:44:48 pm
And the meaninglessness succeeds! Such a thing is almost anathema to human thought, since we are the ones prescribing meaning to what is essentially just machinery upon machinery.
Title: Re: We Are Proyas
Post by: gtownwr on August 30, 2017, 08:13:19 pm
And the meaninglessness succeeds! Such a thing is almost anathema to human thought, since we are the ones prescribing meaning to what is essentially just machinery upon machinery.

One vehicle for meaninglessness succeeds.  As the RSB himself says, Khellus is another vehicle for meaninglessness in a meaningful world.  So I don't think it was unreasonable for someone to consider Khellus victorious another avenue for meaninglessness to be victorious.  Or to think that Khellus succeeding is still not an inversion of trope. 

I am definitely a fantasy genre reader, and I am someone who needs closure (the Marvel movie universe drives me nuts because I want something to END, not continue forever).  So while I have had those two things working "against" me with this series, it has been a series I have absolutely loved and recommended to dozens of friends and family.  It is difficult to determine what parts of my disappointment are based in Khellus being killed, since I have been obsessed with his character since TDTCB, and what parts are due to the lack of closure of certain narrative threads.  But in the end, I am currently not only hesitant to suggest these books now, but part of me wants to warn the friends who are reading it from the beginning.  PON was amazing and may be my go to in the long run, but TUC was an exercise in frustration and disappointment for me.  There have been many comparisons between TTT and TUC across several threads, but to me, they serve as antithesis to each other from a catharsis perspective.  TTT satisfyingly concluded that series, where TUC does not.