Bakker and Tolkien

  • 72 Replies
  • 33997 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:00 am »
Quote from: Auriga
I'm sure comparisons between Bakker and Tolkien have been made before (Cil-Aujas and Moria, the dragon in "The Hobbit", and so on), but this is one I haven't noticed before. I just re-read "The Silmarillion" yesterday, and noticed this bit about Sauron corrupting an island kingdom from the inside and creating a new religion, eventually leading to God punishing them and destroying their realm.

When I read that part, the similarity to Kellhus just struck me. No way Bakker didn't get inspiration from Tolkien's story.

Did anyone else notice this likeness between Sauron and the Dunyain?

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:07 am »
Quote from: Gorgorotterath
Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power (in Tolkien case Evil is an absolute, that's not true in Earwa, but the Inchoroi are the closest thing to a proper race of darklords, I suppose), and the provoked the doom of their people.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:14 am »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Gorgorotterath
Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power
Yeah. Although what I remember, from the Silmarillion chapter, is that the Numenoreans never actually got immortality from Sauron, he just used this as a way to manipulate them.

The Nonmen remind me more of the Nazgul, who were granted an eternal life but weren't biologically made for it, ending up as insane and undead wraiths.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:19 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Texas sharpshooter fallacy stuff maybe? 

When its a tribute it tends to hit you in the face, like Cil'Aujis/Moria. 

Every epic fantasy is going to have enough tangentals to enable these kind of comparisons.

Leaving aside the numerous distintions that divide the plot points you have related here - Sauron's motivations vs the Dunyain - God as an active judge vs whatever Bakker's version of God ends up as etc etc

Sorry, I don't really see it beyond the superficial surface similarities.  They are just common fantasy plot tropes - corruption vs judgement, the price of immortality.  You could easily pick a dozen others from various myths and fairy stories.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:27 am »
Quote from: Gorgorotterath
you're right...that's why I've spoken of analogy and not of tribute
Anyway I like this kind of similarities, so for me they're a plus on the series.
Not all the similarities clearly are intentionals, but seeing how many times bakker has reinterpreted some Tolkien's statement in an original way (Elves/Nonmen, Orc/Sranc just to cite the most obvious) I always wonder.

In TTT Achamian realize Khellus is a false prophet because despite all his powers, intuitions and nice words he cannot heal people (Xinemus in particular)...this could be seen a reverse of a theme in the LotR, sice Aragorn is first recognized to be a King beacause of his healing powers. More likely, Jesus is the template for both of them.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:32 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Ah fairy nuff.

Akka is himself an inversion of the wise wizard controlling the plot from the sidelines in PON. 
He never has a clue what is going on until its pointed out to him... e.g. spends so much time tripping over clues about the skin spies and the consult, gets played hard by Kellhus - cedes the gnosis, loses his GF and then a crazy barbarian has to point out the fact that he's getting manipulated and instead of wiseing up, protecting his interests and getting what he wants he goes off in a big hissy.

Here's some Bakker/Tolkien character comparison from the horse's mouth for ya ;)
Quote from: RSB
Kellhus is an inversion of 'the Young Man who would be King.' My UK editor calls him the 'Anti-Frodo.' He is of course, far more than that besides.

Cnaiur is the All-conquering Barbarian (who cannot conquer himself).

Achamian is the Wise Sorcerer (who continually fools himself).

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:38 am »
Quote from: Davias
Aside from the comparison of the plot and characters in Tolkien's and Bakker's works, the geographical and cultural similarities were the first ones, which catched my eye in TSA.

The whole shape of Eärwa remind me plainly of Beleriand and the realms beyond. For example, Golgotterath are placed similar to Morgoth's Angband. The dusty plains of Agongorea are like the plains of Anfauglith. The dying race of the nonmen and the dying elves of Tolkien's world.
Some of the epic fights of the nonmen and the consult are similar to the fights between Morgoth and the elves of Beleriand ( Sranc pouring out of the Yimaleti-Mountains like the Orcs out of the Iron Mountains near Angand )

I like it a lot, how Bakker creates allusions involving Tolkiens Middle-Earth. He makes his world equally epic in my opinion, but also a lot darker and more interesting.

Tolkien's world shines like a perfect, clear crystal, alight with tales of legendary heroism, standing on a white pedestal in a wide, sunlit hallway, many visitors gazing upon it everyday.
But Bakker's world is an eerie stone, found in an old, decayed ruin deep in the woods by a lonely thoughtful person, old and unknown carvings scratched in his dark surface.

And I like eerie stones better than clear crystals ;)

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:47 am »
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: Gorgorotterath
Actually I didn't see that...
I suspect an analogy between Cujara Cinmoi and Ar-Pharazon. Both provoked the fall of their entire civilization only because of their arrogance. Seeking immortality they made a deal with an evil power
Yeah. Although what I remember, from the Silmarillion chapter, is that the Numenoreans never actually got immortality from Sauron, he just used this as a way to manipulate them.

The Nonmen remind me more of the Nazgul, who were granted an eternal life but weren't biologically made for it, ending up as insane and undead wraiths.
Always wonder what hold the Nonmen had that the Consult couldn't simply kill them as they treated them. Particularly time bombs. Granted the womb plague was one, or seems one, but unless the nonmen know about their internal structures, it's not hard to just make a blood clot happen here or there and boom, gone.

Could be a consult thing though - less efficient, but they are may passionate about stopping babies (the no god does this as well).

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:53 am »
Quote from: Madness
Just a thought, Callan, but you could really reframe this whole thing as, "whoops, I didn't think the females of your species mattered" (Inchoroi), if we didn't, supposedly, know the Consult's goals.

+1 for thread. Had to be done.

Also, +1 Davias. Your descriptions about reading Bakker are teh awesome :D.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 12:43:57 am »
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Davias
Tolkien's world shines like a perfect, clear crystal, alight with tales of legendary heroism, standing on a white pedestal in a wide, sunlit hallway, many visitors gazing upon it everyday.
But Bakker's world is an eerie stone, found in an old, decayed ruin deep in the woods by a lonely thoughtful person, old and unknown carvings scratched in his dark surface.

And I like eerie stones better than clear crystals ;)

I was looking for a way to encapsulate the tonal differences between traditional fantasy like LoTR and Bakker's brand, and I think this does the job perfectly. Kudos.

If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa. WHAT DO YOU SEE? etc.

hobbits -> rape aliens. QED

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 12:44:04 am »
Quote from: Auriga
Quote from: bbaztek
If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa.

As our heroes are overcome by exhaustion, on the slopes of Mount Doom:

Shaeönanra: Do you remember home, Mr. Aurang? It'll be spring soon. And every room in the Ark will be full of the sound of new screams. And the fresh captives will be skull-raped and crying out in joy. And all the young Sranc will be growing up...and swallowing their first loads of black semen. Do you remember the salty taste of semen?
Aurang: No, Shae. I can't recall the taste of semen... nor the sound of screams... nor the touch of a phallus. I'm naked in the dark, with nothing, no veil... between me and eternal damnation. I can see it with my waking eyes!
Shaeönanra: Then let us be rid of it, once and for all! Come on, Mr. Aurang. I can't carry it for you... but I can carry you!

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 12:44:09 am »
Quote from: Davias
+1 Auriga

A crazy picture swells in my head, were the two of them copulating on the small rock over the lava pit, Gollum stand gaping at their side, gawking like a frog, the One Ring completely forgotten :lol:

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 12:44:15 am »
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Auriga
As our heroes are overcome by exhaustion, on the slopes of Mount Doom:

Shaeönanra: Do you remember home, Mr. Aurang? It'll be spring soon. And every room in the Ark will be full of the sound of new screams. And the fresh captives will be skull-raped and crying out in joy. And all the young Sranc will be growing up...and swallowing their first loads of black semen. Do you remember the salty taste of semen?
Aurang: No, Shae. I can't recall the taste of semen... nor the sound of screams... nor the touch of a phallus. I'm naked in the dark, with nothing, no veil... between me and eternal damnation. I can see it with my waking eyes!
Shaeönanra: Then let us be rid of it, once and for all! Come on, Mr. Aurang. I can't carry it for you... but I can carry you!

Nonsense. Aurang would never consent to throwing away a perfectly good cock ring into a volcano.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 12:44:20 am »
Quote from: Curethan
Quote from: tvtropes
A subtle one in The Thousandfold Thought. One character, ruminating on a birdlike abomination, speaks of "nepenthe," cries out "Bird! Devil!" and comments that the bird is like a "demon dreaming" - all lines from Poe's The Raven.

What Came Before

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Emwama
  • *****
  • Posts: 0
    • View Profile
    • First Second Apocalypse
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2013, 12:44:25 am »
Quote from: Meyna
Quote from: bbaztek
If the Gods/Outside are the ultimate antagonistic force of the series, I like to think of Bakker's "Eye of Sauron" as being the the very fact of the Gods access to Earwa. Everything sees, everything watches, everything judges. Just like Frodo and the gang were snuffing out the last of Sauron's influence in middle earth by toppling the barad-dur, so are the inchoroi trying to blind the gods by erasing their influence in earwa. WHAT DO YOU SEE? etc.

Is the No-God literally asking the all-seeing Gods what they are experiencing? Perhaps to gauge how good a job it is doing at severing Earwa from the outside?

"TELL ME. WHAT AM I?"

The No-God is challenging or taunting the Gods here :p

As an aside, The Two Towers is playing on Fox right now.