[TUC Spoilers] Inchoroi in future books

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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2017, 07:08:56 pm »
Another question is, are hedonism and sociopathy really inevitable?

Hedonism? Probably, though to what degree is open for debate. Depending on the species and society in question, a drive for accomplishment or some other goal(s) could very well moderate its impact. Though in a post-morality world, why not make enjoyment the driving force? Rewire the brain to love tedious, monotonous tasks, and perpetual bliss can be had by all without interfering with social order.

Sociopathy? Useful in certain occupations/areas of society, but on a grand scale for the entire populace, no. Though amorality is a more nuanced beast. Eliminating empathy species-wide is a far different animal than divorcing actions from judgment.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2017, 07:12:49 pm »
Hedonism? Probably, though to what degree is open for debate. Depending on the species and society in question, a drive for accomplishment or some other goal(s) could very well moderate its impact. Though in a post-morality world, why not make enjoyment the driving force? Rewire the brain to love tedious, monotonous tasks, and perpetual bliss can be had by all without interfering with social order.

Sociopathy? Useful in certain occupations/areas of society, but on a grand scale for the entire populace, no. Though amorality is a more nuanced beast. Eliminating empathy species-wide is a far different animal than divorcing actions from judgment.
And why would we uniformly pursue any of those things?

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2017, 07:22:13 pm »
And why would we uniformly pursue any of those things?

For them to become dominant, pursuit doesn't have to be universal, just highly incentivized. Why not get rewired to enjoy your shitty job, if the alternative is suffering through it - and possibly losing it to someone whose performance is better due simply to the fact that it brings them pleasure?

The trend starts; fast forward thirty years as the technology becomes better and more accessible, the benefits are made clear, and non-compliance (while not strictly punished by edict) brings a deluge of negative consequence both financial and social, all toward the purpose of enjoying life less than your peers? Why fight it other than obsolete morality?
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Baztek

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« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2017, 07:25:41 pm »
Rewiring someone to take an almost transcendent pleasure in what was once soul-killing monotony amounts to a lobotomy. There's no way the intensity/degree of consciousness would be maintained just as it is, except now you go into ecstatic fits burger flippin'. The mind is a dynamic system, it isn't switches and dials on a board.

But I guess that's kind of your point.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 07:27:23 pm by Baztek »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #94 on: August 11, 2017, 07:26:40 pm »
For them to become dominant, pursuit doesn't have to be universal, just highly incentivized.
Why would it be?

Why not get rewired to enjoy your shitty job, if the alternative is suffering through it - and possibly losing it to someone whose performance is better due simply to the fact that it brings them pleasure?
Why have a job? If technology is sufficiently advanced your needs are met by default. Do what you will.

My point is, why would only one way of life become dominant? I don't see it. If anything, I see more or less the opposite of it.

MSJ

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« Reply #95 on: August 11, 2017, 07:48:07 pm »
There are many books, movies and such on this very subject. When we become so advanced the majority of population isnt needed, what do we become? Its explored in The Expanse.

No one knows, yea, a certain % of people will laze away and delve into only things that pleasure. Gonna be a shitload of poor people. But, humans will still be productive and hold some semblance of morals. Its who we are, engrained into our DNA. It's why we have Gods with religious text, to keep us walking a straight line. And, imho, no matter how far science evolves, most humans will hold onto those morals. People wanna be good people for the most part. Its what I like to think, at least.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2017, 07:59:38 pm »
Why would it be?

If it serves the interests of those in power, why wouldn't it be? All structured societies have leaders and followers. The degree of direct control and basis for higher stature varies wildly between eras and governmental/economic systems, but is always present.

To use an oversimplified modern example: the U.S. begins a gradual shift from a production economy to a service/information economy. As such, the intrinsic value of higher education and specialization rises. Without edict or direct legal consequence for failure to adhere, there is a dramatic upward shift in people at the low-to-mid end of the spectrum pursuing specialized education, pursuing reward and avoiding (non-mandated) consequence.

Quote from: SmilerLoki
Why have a job? If technology is sufficiently advanced your needs are met by default. Do what you will.

My point is, why would only one way of life become dominant? I don't see it. If anything, I see more or less the opposite of it.

The job bit was a bad analogy on my end, but serves my point a bit indirectly. Think how quick we are to process advancement within the confines of our current system. (The fact that robots and computers may do all the work in the near future might be a bad thing in terms of survival if the current system isn't rewritten from the ground up to accommodate the existence of non-human labor). No reason to think those who benefit from the status quo would alter it substantially just to make things easier on anyone else.

Quote from: MSJ
And, imho, no matter how far science evolves, most humans will hold onto those morals. People wanna be good people for the most part. Its what I like to think, at least.

But morals are not universally shared or constant through time.
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Baztek

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« Reply #97 on: August 11, 2017, 08:03:27 pm »
Morality as such, however, is universal.

MSJ

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« Reply #98 on: August 11, 2017, 08:07:21 pm »
Quote from:  solipsisticurge
But morals are not universally shared or constant through time.

Well, they basically have been for 2 millennia. Things change, sure. But, for the most part I don't see the horror story that so many warn us of, coming to pass. Its in a nature to want to be good people, please others, make others think highly of us. To do this, you have to follow morals. I don't see that changing. In fact, my opinion of what science will do to us, is make a better us. I feel that at some point (not in my lifetime, for sure), humanity will wake up and look for common good for each other. It'll take something awful to happen, but I believe it will.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #99 on: August 11, 2017, 08:10:07 pm »
All structured societies have leaders and followers. The degree of direct control and basis for higher stature varies wildly between eras and governmental/economic systems, but is always present.
I agree. It seems we understand society and governmental systems very similarly.

If it serves the interests of those in power, why wouldn't it be?
I feel that society is reborn (unfortunately, forcibly reborn, as history teaches us, but that's not to say other ways don't exist) when interests of those in power sufficiently contradict interests of those not. I feel that violation of personality is more than sufficient enough. At least for today's advanced societies.

(The fact that robots and computers may do all the work in the near future might be a bad thing in terms of survival if the current system isn't rewritten from the ground up to accommodate the existence of non-human labor).
It presents a significant problem, I agree. I also don't foresee this problem being solved easily.

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2017, 08:24:12 pm »

Well, they basically have been for 2 millennia. Things change, sure. But, for the most part I don't see the horror story that so many warn us of, coming to pass. Its in a nature to want to be good people, please others, make others think highly of us. To do this, you have to follow morals. I don't see that changing. In fact, my opinion of what science will do to us, is make a better us. I feel that at some point (not in my lifetime, for sure), humanity will wake up and look for common good for each other. It'll take something awful to happen, but I believe it will.

I'll agree that the absolute worst-case scenario is far-fetched. I don't share your relentless optimism, though. Probably some workable middle ground will be found. I do tend to view the arc of progress as tending toward justice... but that's just a modern mind finding merit in the circumstances it was born into and trained to revere, after all.

Perhaps the disagreement lies in "making a better us." Who gets to define "better," and will it somehow manage to contradict "better for the prevailing socioeconomic system" if necessary to preserve current humanist morality?
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

MSJ

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« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2017, 08:27:19 pm »
Quote from:  solipsisticurge
Perhaps the disagreement lies in "making a better us." Who gets to define "better," and will it somehow manage to contradict "better for the prevailing socioeconomic system" if necessary to preserve current humanist morality?

By, "better us" thats what I was getting at. A better world, better place to live, more peaceful, more prosperous.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2017, 08:33:13 pm »
Quote from:  solipsisticurge
Perhaps the disagreement lies in "making a better us." Who gets to define "better," and will it somehow manage to contradict "better for the prevailing socioeconomic system" if necessary to preserve current humanist morality?

By, "better us" thats what I was getting at. A better world, better place to live, more peaceful, more prosperous.

I'm just not sure the tenets of humanism will survive the coming storm, especially given ecological concerns looming large on the horizon. Why go through all the trouble of arguing taxation and people's right to their neurology as born to keep the moral sensitivities and livelihoods intact for swaths of people who will be, in terms of the economy (the real system at power for the last few centuries), useless? How does prosperity (as interpreted by those already at the wheel, politically and financially) benefit from "lazy people getting free shit my robots made?"

I'm expecting society to continue to follow a top-down structure, and for those at the top to continue to prioritize their own short-term benefit over other concerns. I do sincerely hope I'm wrong on that front.
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2017, 04:38:10 am »
I do believe the Progenitors will become a cautionary tale, of sorts.

But I believe, firmly, that the Progenitors are artificial intelligence.

Given Bakker's predilection for the subject and view of its inevitability and culture/species-warping potential, it seems logical, and what he would see as the inevitable end to the "death of meaning" and identification of the universe as an entirely mechanical process. Without moral meaning, we're back to Nietzsche's "good v. bad" supplanting "good v. evil," and AI is already outperforming human intellect at most tasks in our world, before we've even developed a true AI. We know them capable of it from the Ark's machine intelligence.

The question for me is, were they entirely AI prior to finding damnation is factual, or subsequently? If the former, it could be the inherent reason for their damnation; mechanistic souls utterly divorced from semantics, strictly pursuing intentional amoral goals. If the latter, one could assume the Progenitors, having already developed AI distinct from themselves, sought to copy their souls/consciousness into the superior form to forestall damnation (their homeworld being entirely anarcane ground, any solution is entirely reliant upon the Tekne). Side-stepping the issue seems to be most species' go-to move in the absence of a means to end it, or to wait out the interim until success.

Given the worries regarding our own future's technological advances in light of a meritocratic capitalist economy, one might also assume the AI-Progenitors came from wealthy supermen who rode the transhumanist wave to its logical conclusion, and the Inchoroi are the dead-end of the working poor, genetically and neurologically altered for maximum utility to the holders of wealth over the course of time. (Wire up the brain so carnal reward is the ultimate, reward them with this upon task completion.)
I'm pretty sure they were fleshy beings, as described by the way the cast aside their Gods and temples etc., remolded themselves to plunge deeper perversions (have a hard time seeing a piece of software doing this). Also, I think Bakker's fear of AI is not so much related to humans becoming AI but the way AI can exploit human cheat space in this newly arising cognitive ecology. Also, I'm just gonna say that I personally find strong AI to be a fantasy. Teaching computers how to make a good statistical model of some data is a far shot away from something that even thinks like a human, even though it may be way better than humans at specific tasks.
Also, regarding the capitalism/class thing
Quote
Nothing was forbidden them, short the obstruction of others and their desires
It looks more like socialism to me!

Another question is, are hedonism and sociopathy really inevitable?
Probably, but hedonism might not be hedonism to the hedonist, only from our perspective. Hell, you could argue a man undergoing hormone therapy and surgery to look like a woman isn't far off from "regrafting themselves to plunge ever deeper perversions".

Quote from:  solipsisticurge
But morals are not universally shared or constant through time.

Well, they basically have been for 2 millennia. Things change, sure. But, for the most part I don't see the horror story that so many warn us of, coming to pass. Its in a nature to want to be good people, please others, make others think highly of us. To do this, you have to follow morals. I don't see that changing. In fact, my opinion of what science will do to us, is make a better us. I feel that at some point (not in my lifetime, for sure), humanity will wake up and look for common good for each other. It'll take something awful to happen, but I believe it will.
They haven't. In a span of a few short years homosexuality has become accepted, maybe even celebrated, in the West, after a long period of harsh discrimination. Also, as much as it lies in our nature to be good to the good, it's also natural for us to want to punish the evil. The problem is that good and evil are not fixed, at all.

There are many books, movies and such on this very subject. When we become so advanced the majority of population isnt needed, what do we become? Its explored in The Expanse.
To be honest I don't think this is going to happen. At some point, somebody, probably the Chinese or something, will say "fuck your shitty arbitrary and hypocritical morals, I'm going to gene-edit this baby and try making it more intelligent", and voila.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:15:32 am by tleilaxu »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #104 on: August 12, 2017, 04:59:16 am »
Also, I'm just gonna say that I personally find strong AI to be a fantasy. Teaching computers how to make a good statistical model of some data is a far shot away from something that even thinks like a human, even though it may be way better than humans at specific tasks.
I'm very much inclined to agree.

It looks more like socialism to me!
While presenting you with means to support yourself, socialistic governmental systems (right now we mostly have Northern Europe to speak for those) do not, by themselves, impose any kind of morals on their citizens. Morals reside in the realm of historical and cultural inheritance. So socialism neither punishes nor promotes self-indulgence.

Another question is, are hedonism and sociopathy really inevitable?
Probably, but hedonism might not be hedonism to the hedonist, only from our perspective. Hell, you argue a man undergoing hormone therapy and surgery to look like a woman isn't far off from "regrafting themselves to plunge ever deeper perversions".
I feel like this analogy is a severe oversimplification. I also have said nothing of the sort.