Chorae

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« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2014, 02:27:12 pm »
Under the Chorae section of Cu'jara's sayings, these two bits caught my eye:

Quote
The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Quote
The script inscribed across each embodies a contradiction that unravels the semantics of all known Cants - even those of the Aporos!

Strange, I assumed that the chorae contained something cool, like a special kind of soul, and that the inside was what did the work.  These quotes seem to say that it's the writing itself!  If so, perhaps Kellhus has unravelled this secret and can produce his own chorae or other choric objects.


Aural

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« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2014, 04:44:16 pm »
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The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Is this possible with other sorceries? I mean Gnostic Cants inscribed on scrolls and so on?

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« Reply #107 on: April 24, 2014, 05:09:55 pm »
I imagine that this is how sorcerous artifacts work (wathi doll, whores shell, kellhu's fire, etc.)

I just wonder the mechanics of infusing meaning into an object, via writing, using Earwa's magic metaphysics (i.e. utter + inutteral?)

I suppose we know that objects can be worked by magic, like placing wards in hallways or on walls, so its possible that objects might be "programed" via magic to do certain things (like cast spells when something moves within range?). Maybe the written words help reinforce the magic somehow, but it could be that magical properties could be infused within objects without any writing at all.
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« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2014, 01:12:38 pm »
Quote
The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Is this possible with other sorceries? I mean Gnostic Cants inscribed on scrolls and so on?

I don't know how they work but there certainly are other sorcerous objects? We're told a number of those are covered in sorcerous writing - they can't be aporic?

I imagine that this is how sorcerous artifacts work (wathi doll, whores shell, kellhu's fire, etc.)

I just wonder the mechanics of infusing meaning into an object, via writing, using Earwa's magic metaphysics (i.e. utter + inutteral?)

I suppose we know that objects can be worked by magic, like placing wards in hallways or on walls, so its possible that objects might be "programed" via magic to do certain things (like cast spells when something moves within range?). Maybe the written words help reinforce the magic somehow, but it could be that magical properties could be infused within objects without any writing at all.

It can't be how all of them work?

Maybe sorcerous objects with script imbuing them with sorcery don't have a Mark, whereas Wards, etc, sorcery overlaid onto physical objects do have a Mark... but then where do sorcerous objects with Animas fit in?
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2014, 04:47:06 am »
Wonder what a chorae does on anarcane ground?  Muted or amplified or neither?

Wilshire

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« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2014, 05:41:03 pm »
That is a good question. Can a schoolmen touch a Chorae there? If not, what makes the aporos immune to the anti-magic effect of that area. If so, then maybe it is the only place where the Chorae can be made, allowing a schoolman the ability to craft such an item without feeling its anarcana effects.
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« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2014, 05:50:11 pm »
Hadn't thought of that!  I guess that would mean that the original practitioners of the Aporos could have operated at Atrithau (or some other anarcane ground).  I hope to the gods that there is a hidden mansion there.

geoffrobro

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« Reply #112 on: August 04, 2015, 11:13:05 pm »


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."
 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:14:47 pm by geoffrobro »
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« Reply #113 on: August 05, 2015, 05:32:08 pm »
Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

I disagree on the source of the word Aporos.  I think it comes from Aporia (ἀπορία: "impasse, difficulty of passing, lack of resources, puzzlement") which "denotes in philosophy a philosophical puzzle or state of puzzlement and in rhetoric a rhetorically useful expression of doubt."

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Chorae Hoard is how Sakarpus managed to survive the First Apocalypse. The No-God circumvented it, saving his limited sorcerous resources to overcome the South.

One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
Good questions, all. Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos. Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the Mark.

I think the the root of all sorcery is semantics.  It has nothing really, at heart, to do with the God, the God is simply another layer of semantics set on top.  Kellhus' explanation in TTT is either him attributing things to the God, or is his attempt to mislead Akka (most probable). 

I think what a Chorae does is unravels meaning.  It is a paradox resolving paradox, which in-and-of itself is a paradox.  It is a sink of meaning; where language gives positive semantics, a Chorae has negative semantics.  It's nonsense, in the way which we fathom language, but in theory it could exist.  If words could build meaning, then they could also destroy it.

I think that's the crux of it, not the Mark.  In Earwa, the soul is the bearer of meaning, it is where what you have done is writ.  So, once the Chorae undoes that meaning, the soul (the Greek phrenes, that is, the breathe of life) is unraveled and so discorporated in the process.  The Mark only determines what happens to the body after.  For those who are Marked, the disagreement if the Onta causes the body to salt.  For Cishaurim, the soul simply exits and the body (who was not at odds with it) simply becomes one with the Onta.

I am definitely missing at least several somethings though.  Akka describes the presence of a Chorae as a "dip in the Onta."  So, perhaps it is that withdrawing of the Onta that is the real mechanism of it?  Since both types of sorcery rely upon the Onta to work, perhaps also a sorcerer's bodies do too?

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 05:43:32 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #114 on: August 07, 2015, 11:47:03 am »
I'm rereading WLW, because for some reason, it is the book I can recall the least of.

Akka says at one point:

Quote
Chorae only negated violations of the Real; they returned the world to its fundamental frame.

This is the first and only reference to The Real.  The world as experienced is The Real, the Onta is the anima?  So, what is the 'fundamental frame?'  If the Onta is not the fundimental frame, then what is?  I need to think more on this.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

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« Reply #115 on: August 20, 2015, 08:50:14 pm »
More theory crafting.

Quote
The issue of the Chorae threshold is also broached in TWP. There is, however, a limited grey zone, consisting of arcane keys, ciphers, and so on, which one of the Few can utter without suffering the bruise or Mark of sorcery. It's the Mark that determines whom the Chorae can kill. If one of the Few can recognize you, then so can those accursed Trinkets...
---
They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise.

So, Chorae reconcile the paradox of the disagreement of the Real and the Onta, in other words the Mark. 

For Cishaurim, it is different though, contact with a Chorae produces "quick, soundless flashes, like tissue cast into flame."  I think this is because for a Cishaurim, their soul is one with the Onta, so to speak.  Akka explains to us that a Chorae is "a dip in the fabric of the onta" so when the Onta is pushed away fully, the soul is evacuated along with it.

Perhaps?

I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2015, 12:19:11 am »
I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

2) Chorae bowmenship could be a "proper" way of acting for bankrupted/dishonored nobles. No currency to pay the bills? Fornicated (refused to fornicate) with your uncle? Go field, shoot ainoni battlemages with your house relic, be a good boy and make Xerius III proud. That's like valyrian weapons in Ossos & Westeros; powerful houses rulers and top-ranked mercs/fighters are both counted as potential owners of such artifacts because of their similar place in the world.

3) Tricky arrows. Chorae on the tip; lots of sorcery on the shaft; something neat and paradoxial (like nonmen shield over the Ark) in between to connect shaft and tip without actual connection. Cunning thief wants to steal your fallen arrow? He will face an invisible arrow. With insanely-multiplicated weight. With a 2 meter-wide death field around shaft plus a little bubble of normal space around tip/chorae. No way he'll be able to see it, move or touch without being an owner of the second chorae. Oh, no. No. No death field and other stuff at all. Just a simple cant of compulsion: "Take me. Care about me. Return me to my owner. Btw, he's on 14 hours, 200 steps".

Eh. It seems my guesses evolve from simple to outrageous.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 12:22:13 am by Simas Polchias »

locke

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« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2015, 03:29:59 am »

I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

2) Chorae bowmenship could be a "proper" way of acting for bankrupted/dishonored nobles. No currency to pay the bills? Fornicated (refused to fornicate) with your uncle? Go field, shoot ainoni battlemages with your house relic, be a good boy and make Xerius III proud. That's like valyrian weapons in Ossos & Westeros; powerful houses rulers and top-ranked mercs/fighters are both counted as potential owners of such artifacts because of their similar place in the world.

3) Tricky arrows. Chorae on the tip; lots of sorcery on the shaft; something neat and paradoxial (like nonmen shield over the Ark) in between to connect shaft and tip without actual connection. Cunning thief wants to steal your fallen arrow? He will face an invisible arrow. With insanely-multiplicated weight. With a 2 meter-wide death field around shaft plus a little bubble of normal space around tip/chorae. No way he'll be able to see it, move or touch without being an owner of the second chorae. Oh, no. No. No death field and other stuff at all. Just a simple cant of compulsion: "Take me. Care about me. Return me to my owner. Btw, he's on 14 hours, 200 steps".

Eh. It seems my guesses evolve from simple to outrageous.
to 1 I would say there are very few but they're camouflaged in a large group of "chorae bowmen" so attacks on the group are less likely to take out the talent.  You'd also use the crowd bowmen to range a target for the sniper and potentially hide a needle in the sheaf of arrows. Flying in every volley.  All arrows in the cohort would have faux chorae weights for obvious tactical and accuracy reasons.  You could use active competition in the cohort to keep your handful of bowmen sharp, given they may never loose a chorae shaft in their entire career.


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« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2015, 01:39:57 pm »
1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

to 1 I would say there are very few but they're camouflaged in a large group of "chorae bowmen" so attacks on the group are less likely to take out the talent.  You'd also use the crowd bowmen to range a target for the sniper and potentially hide a needle in the sheaf of arrows. Flying in every volley.  All arrows in the cohort would have faux chorae weights for obvious tactical and accuracy reasons.  You could use active competition in the cohort to keep your handful of bowmen sharp, given they may never loose a chorae shaft in their entire career.

I like the above. Makes the chorae bowmen cadre seem way more reasonable. Still terribly expensive, but considering the 'value' of taking out an enemy sorcerer it may be worth doing something like this.
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mrganondorf

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« Reply #119 on: August 28, 2015, 12:22:58 am »


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."
 

i like this--maybe opens the possibility that some chorae become more powerful over time because of trapping many sorcerers?