Kellhus and Nau Cayuti

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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2014, 10:24:12 pm »
Conditioned by lies...

Then tell me the truth... And even Scott is a dirty liar who lies, there is still the Consult that thinks the pregnancy is very important.

I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking?

Since i can't see your facial expression i will go with both ;)

So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?

Sure i am, that's what Celmomas tells his audience. He says Nau-Cayuti speaks to him. Of course he might be lying, or it might be one of the Hundred, another ciphrang, the God of Gods, the Solitary God or Santa in disguise. Maybe, just maybe in this case the obvious explanation is the correct one :P

Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.

Ha, you shouldn't be so certain. I have proposed so many (admittedly crazy) things about the series through the years that statistically a few of them are bound to be close to the mark. Btw i am already writing your speech. Or would you prefer a song? I am good with rhyming.

... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.

I will stop then. All life is sacred, and jokes aside, the conversation has become cyclical many quotes ago.

SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?

Yeah, i agree. I didn't say she consciously knows, it's very apparent she doesn't. I said (or tried to say) that her remark was correct, so some part of hers at that exact point in time might have seen the truth.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 10:39:22 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

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« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2014, 10:34:05 am »
Conditioned by lies...

Then tell me the truth... And even Scott is a dirty liar who lies, there is still the Consult that thinks the pregnancy is very important.

I don't know any truths beyond what we know.

How does the pregnancy tie Mimara or her baby to the Celmomian Prophecy and then somehow automatically to the False Prophecy?

This was going to be my point but... I don't know that making it is going to help my argument. Mimara is tied to the False Prophecy.

To try and keep this straight for myself. You've written:

- No-God is a new mini-Outside.
- Nau-Cayuti is the most prominent Soul inside the No-God.
-- If the number of Souls in the World fell below 144, 000 (or some number) that new births would happen, soul-recycled from the No-God.
- Nau-Cayuti tells Celmomas and X from the Consult the same words (? - I'm not clear on this) because somehow you've intimately tied what very well might be two prophecies.

Then from this, I think you've gone on to suggest that:

- Mimara is Anasurimbor descended (admittedly, I've fought for this one) as is her baby.
- False Prophecy and Celmomian Prophecy are the same, based on both hearing Nau-Cayuti within the No-God.
-- If you collapse the vessels of the words, the No-God is speaking to Achamian (or Seswatha), rather than strictly Celmomas (but you could basically recycle any entity in the series into the antecedent and consequent positions).

Some of these I think I have contentions with. Lol - really, apologies because if there were more people here, I'd be one dissenting voice. I like to take my speculation in small steps as it allows an easier and more deliberated assertion of what may come.

I think it's easiest to assume that False Prophecy suggests True Prophecy. Perhaps, Kellhus did something like True Prophecy with the Shrial Knights or Achamian with Sauglish and the Coffers. But we have no way to know if the Celmomian Prophecy is False or True.

My only take away that we can know from this is that False Prophecy exists as distinguished from True, and that the Consult believes that a Prophecy involving Mimara is False... All else is unsubstantiated.

I'm pretty much deadly serious all the time or I'm 100% joking?

Since i can't see your facial expression i will go with both ;)

That was serious? Ugh... I'm digging a hole here :P. Putting down the shovel.

So... back to the beginning. You attribute the Celmomian Prophecy as Nau-Cayuti speaking from inside the new mini-Outside of the No-God... except that you haven't given a good reason why that same dream/prophecy/message can't legitimately be from the Gods?

Sure i am, that's what Celmomas tells his audience. He says Nau-Cayuti speaks to him. Of course he might be lying, or it might be one of the Hundred, another ciphrang, the God of Gods, the Solitary God or Santa in disguise. Maybe, just maybe in this case the obvious explanation is the correct one :P

Actually, Celmomas says that he sees the Gods and that his son rides with them?

And none of what you just wrote supported Nau-Cayuti as speaking from within the No-God (we get no indication of this?) or why the Gods can't communicate to the world while the No-God is around (which you seemed to suggest was the case upthread)?

Lol. Mayhaps. But I don't believe your inception will come to pass. Nor do I care that you come before me.

Ha, you shouldn't be so certain. I have proposed so many (admittedly crazy) things about the series through the years that statistically a few of them are bound to be close to the mark. Btw i am already writing your speech. Or would you prefer a song? I am good with rhyming.

I'm good with oratory or song... but I'm hardly going to sing your praises alone. This will clearly involve all those speculators who have been apart of this world for years, taking turns in groups to sing/speak the praises of each other :P.

... the assumptions are killing me slowly, SOA.

I will stop then. All life is sacred, and jokes aside, the conversation has become cyclical many quotes ago.

It didn't have to, SOA :P. All conversations are not flat circles.

SOA, I really don't think Mimara knows about Soma before it's obvious - when he's doing impossible things to protect her. And I'm not sure what you are trying to extend that logic towards?

Yeah, i agree. I didn't say she consciously knows, it's very apparent she doesn't. I said (or tried to say) that her remark was correct, so some part of hers at that exact point in time might have seen the truth.

Of course, just like the line that Alia suggested, Bakker has seeded commentary that might enable the reader to guess that Soma is a skin-spy - though perhaps not as obvious. This was my issue. It's a stretch to suggest that the line you quote before about Soma should indicate to the reader that Soma is a skin-spy but I do think that Bakker probably wrote that very tongue in check.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 10:38:43 am by Madness »
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2014, 04:03:54 pm »
 I will try to make a more serious post, attempting to explain parts of my reasoning. I will also try to separate what i actually think is probable from the crackpot theories i do for fun.

I've believed (and probably stated here or in the asofai forum) that Mimara was a true Anasurimbur since the moment i put down the JE for the first time. This came before :P. The Nau-Cayuti part was seeded by Scott's comment about the timing of the dreams. Why had Aka to learn now about Nau-Cayuti? He seems to follow his story from conception to "death", breaking every rule about the dreams in the process. It's not about the Heron spear, the narrative surpasses that point and goes on to place him in Golgoterath at the end of his life. And while we don't know why it took the Consult/Inchies so long to build the No God the first time, the second time should be faster. They have the know how, the carapace and no one believes they exist. They seem to be waiting for something.

All this (with the exception of Mimara) is not speculation, it's taken directly from the books. I tried to connect the pieces we have and Nau-Cayuti seemed to me the most probable common factor, as implied by the dreams. I am still working on my Elvis theory, when i am done i will post it as another atrocious tale (hopefully even more badly written than the first one). For now, the only connection i can see to all this is Nau-Cayuti.

The No God theory started to form in my head when i was reading the first trilogy. There was a lot of talk about the outside, where souls went to be judged. But to me, the most important clue was the negation in the name. I mean there had to be a link to the outside, but we didn't know enough about the Gods so i didn't have anything solid to apply that negation to, which led to a lot of head banging against the wall.

In the second trilogy we are  given the information that the God is the sum of all souls. If this information is correct the form of God includes an inside, the physical world, and an outside, the metaphysical/conceptual world. Let's apply a negation to that. The No God, must have a conceptual world inside, and a physical world outside. Indeed the outside of the No God, the carapace has a physical form and interacts with the physical world. This is of course just a guess, but an educated one, i tried to use the clues we are given and combine them with the least amount of complexity.

If the God is the sum of everything, then every soul is not really new. According to the principle of energy conservation the parts that form the entity that is God should always produce the same sum. So souls are in a way recycled through the death and rebirth process. Following this logic, and factoring that according to various characters in the books souls aren't equal,  a more important soul represents a bigger part of God. This view is also expressed in the books, so i think it is more or less correct.

The logical leap is that if you want to change the way God works, you have to subvert an important part of him. The number of souls is a factor, but so is the density. Thus, creating the No God using souls makes sense and a soul like Nau-Cayuti's should be considered a prize. Since he was actually there at Golgoterath at that time, it's not that far fetched to assume he was indeed used to that effect.

I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.

In any case, if God's outside is closed to the world, Nau-Cayuti can't be there. So he has to be somewhere else. It's not such a big of a leap to assume he is inside the No God. The timing fits, but there is a problem as you've pointed out:

The Celmomian prophesy doesn't make sense. We are constantly reminded that when the No God walks the earth, the outside is closed to the world. The Gods are part of the outside, so they shouldn't be able to communicate with Celmomas. This is supported by Maithanet's notion that they can't see the No God. Since the Gods experience all timespace constantly, they don't have access to that specific part of it, so how could the have agency at that time? In the AE, the only God that seems aware of the No God is Ajokli and that's an other inexplicable exception that doesn't fit with anything else we know. The rest of the Gods that have agency in the AE's present, act like they don't know about the No God. So the clues we are given are conflicting with each other, making an accurate prediction impossible. Someone lies, that's for certain.

There is also the matter of the source of the prophesy. Seswatha, if it actually is his heart that the mandate uses for the dreams is completely unreliable. We just can't take his purpose at face value, not with damnation hanging above his neck like an axe. It's interesting to note that real or not, the Seswatha whose heart seeds the dreams has in this way become immortal, avoiding damnation. I don't believe in coincidences ;). On the other hand, the Consult seems to also follow a prophesy. The only common factor i can see between the Consult and the Mandate is they both believe there is a prophesy about a person when the world ends. They obviously disagree about who that person actually is, but this common factor seems to indicate that somewhere down the line there is a single origin.

I also believe the baby is important for reasons i've already explained. He might be the harbinger, he might be Nau-Cayuti reborn, he might be something else entirely, i don't really know. The only thing i am certain of is that he is connected to the second apocalypse.

The rest is just for fun, an attempt to bridge the above with the fact that events repeat themselves in Earwa. there is little point in attempting to debunk or confirm them, because at this time we know jack shit :P.  That's why the conversation becomes cyclical. Scott has given us five books full of clues, and we can trust not a word of them.

So if i say that the story is about the God, trying to understand itself, i am not searching for evidence. It's just a baseless opinion. I am sharing it because i think it's interesting, not because it's necessarily true.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 04:24:09 pm by SkiesOfAzel »

Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2014, 04:59:27 pm »
Whoa, I let this thread get away from me. I'll be reading through it but I fear if I wait till the end that I'll forget my thoughts, so I'll just post them as I go.
Starting with

Quote
Now what does Celmomas see when he dies?

“They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.”

Notice the they? They can't be from the outside, since it's closed to the world.

I don't agree with this first assumption/conclusions.

They could refer to any number of entities. The man was old and dying, not to mention going into shock. Who knows what he saw.

Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this. In fact, I'd argue that there is more evidence that the world remains open. Mainly from the fact that the Inchoroi still war. They still are working towards their goal. If their goal was to achieved they would simply summoning the No-God, they certainly wouldn't have allowed it to take the field and get blown up. I don't claim to know what it was that the King saw, but you cannot rule out any entity form the Outside, or at least you can't do so logically (imo). Hell, he could have still seen any of the 100 if they had avatars living in the World before your so called shutting. Either way, I don't agree at all with your conclusion.

The Prophesy itself give the reader next to nothing.

"An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" - We know that the Anasurimbor never left, and that they have been in the Three Seas for at least 50+ years. If the end of the world is coming, its not because the Anasurimbor are here.

King also mention that the World dies with Seswatha (more or less). We know that either Seswatha died and the world didn't end, or that he is somehow still 'alive' in such a way that denies the fullfillment of the prophesy. We don't know how this is accomplished, and so we therefore know, again, next to nothing.

He also whines about seeing his son and such. The death thralls of a dying man with lifelong regrets. This hardly points directly to any connection with the NG or the outside.

This Prophesy might be important, but for none of the obvious reasons. With the way agency and belief appear to work in Earwa, any prophesy is likely only as important as the number of people that believe it. I doubt a tiny group of Mandati, and now Swayali, are enough to effect change on this kind of scale.


I'll keep reading and letting you know my contrarian opinions when they arise :). Welcome back, and with such style ;)

EDIT:
I do agree that there might be different prophesies that stem from the same beginning, and even end in the same way but seen from different vatage points. The Inchoroi state that they must keep close tabs on all of the prophesies, even the false ones. I think this is said in a way that points to Mimara being some link to one of the False, but I don't think that is necessarily the case. I also believe there is room for many prophesies, Inchoroi, human and Nonmen, that we don't yet know about.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 05:07:43 pm by Wilshire »
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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2014, 05:15:04 pm »
If you are looking for a more well reasoned post go to the one above you, it explains what i believe and why. The Inchoroi war because they have opposition, Man wants to get rid of the No God and that must not be allowed to happen. Of course, they may be trying to reduce the living population to 144k, that's also a possibility but if the God's can't see the No God, it's also logical to assume that the timespace is unaccessible to them when the No God exists.

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2014, 05:22:58 pm »
Regarding Mimara guessing  correctly about the skin spy:

I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?


I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)

One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!

EDIT:
It appears that I have already posted some of the same stuff as Madness, almost word for word, before I read his comment. Sorry if I repeat stuff. Maybe he was referring to me when he said we? (get out of my head)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 05:36:53 pm by Wilshire »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2014, 05:25:53 pm »
If you are looking for a more well reasoned post go to the one above you, it explains what i believe and why. The Inchoroi war because they have opposition, Man wants to get rid of the No God and that must not be allowed to happen. Of course, they may be trying to reduce the living population to 144k, that's also a possibility but if the God's can't see the No God, it's also logical to assume that the timespace is unaccessible to them when the No God exists.

Like I said I'll keep reading, but I disagree still with the world being shut at that point in the story. I agree that the God's are hardly omniscient and probabaly don't have access many, many things (and would put in that they probably don't know they don't know).

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SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2014, 07:38:05 pm »
I don't agree with this first assumption/conclusions.

They could refer to any number of entities. The man was old and dying, not to mention going into shock. Who knows what he saw.

Anyway, how do you know the outside is shut? There is no indication of this. In fact, I'd argue that there is more evidence that the world remains open. Mainly from the fact that the Inchoroi still war. They still are working towards their goal. If their goal was to achieved they would simply summoning the No-God, they certainly wouldn't have allowed it to take the field and get blown up. I don't claim to know what it was that the King saw, but you cannot rule out any entity form the Outside, or at least you can't do so logically (imo). Hell, he could have still seen any of the 100 if they had avatars living in the World before your so called shutting. Either way, I don't agree at all with your conclusion.

There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.

The Prophesy itself give the reader next to nothing.

"An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" - We know that the Anasurimbor never left, and that they have been in the Three Seas for at least 50+ years. If the end of the world is coming, its not because the Anasurimbor are here.

King also mention that the World dies with Seswatha (more or less). We know that either Seswatha died and the world didn't end, or that he is somehow still 'alive' in such a way that denies the fullfillment of the prophesy. We don't know how this is accomplished, and so we therefore know, again, next to nothing.

He also whines about seeing his son and such. The death thralls of a dying man with lifelong regrets. This hardly points directly to any connection with the NG or the outside.

The Anasurimbor never physically left, but they retreated from the world, i see this as a metaphor that one of the line will reemerge with real agency at the end of the world.

If the heart in possession of the Mandate is actually Seswatha's  then he is still alive and kicking. He talks with Kellhus, he influences the dreams, in short he has more agency than any other character in the books. But this could also be a metaphor, where end represents lethe for Seswatha, or change for the world.

Nau-Cayuti isn't a passive presence in the vision, he is an active participant, it's him that talks to Celmomas about the harbinger. Of course we could assume it's just wishful thinking, but the same goes for the visage of the Gods.

This Prophesy might be important, but for none of the obvious reasons. With the way agency and belief appear to work in Earwa, any prophesy is likely only as important as the number of people that believe it. I doubt a tiny group of Mandati, and now Swayali, are enough to effect change on this kind of scale.

Now, that's not necessary true, it all depends on the source of the prophesy. If it's the Gods, their sum already represents human consciousness, so even if no one knows about it, it has power because it's the product of the collective human will. 


Regarding Mimara guessing  correctly about the skin spy:

I think some people, myself included, have been conditioned to look far to closely, to travel too deeply down the rabbit hole. I think it more likely that Mimara's quote there was from the Author to the Reader, just some simple foreshadowing, rather than some crazy prophecy-come-true or an indication of some deep insight into TDTCB. I'm not sure about the timeline here, but have we yet received any other indication that he has been replaced? (references to his inhuman reaction speed, etc.)?

Sure, it may very well be that. But the same goes for her comment that Aka's and Esmi's baby was meant to happen. If Scott did it once, why not do it again ;)?

I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)

Lol, it's not that hard to comprehend, i just did a really bad job presenting it. I will search for a thread about metaphysics and post it there with a better description and examples. If you want to get an idea about the watcher watched paradox, google "schrodinger's cat".

One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!

Yea, i shouldn't have made such a generalization, i am sorry.

Wilshire

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« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2014, 11:45:05 pm »
There are some indications that the world is shut (i've gathered them in my previous post) but you have a point that they are in no way irrefutable. What used to seal the deal for me was the absence of new births, but Madness's and your input made me see it from a different perspective. I've always thought that the No God is what prevents damnation by sealing the world, but maybe it has a different function. Since we know that the Inchoroi strive to reduce the population to 144k in every world they grace with their presence, we could assume that this is the key to seal the world from the outside and the No God is there to facilitate the process. While the Consult army does a fine job towards that goal, new births could potentially become a problem, so the No God might be just a way to screw Yatwer. This doesn't fit with its name though, and i am OCD about those kind of things. Maybe Scott didn't like the name No-Birth :P.

Mog is certainly there to facilitate the closing of the world. I always assumed NG is something like the "missing ingredient", something that the Inchoroi needed to seal away the outside but never where able to create. Something has made Earwa special for them, and the NG has got to be a part of that. The new outside that the Inchoroi are going for probably needs some kind of Deity and that might be that it becomes, I just don't think the outside is sealed out quite yet.


I will also confess that the whole watcher/watched thing goes over my head and I'll not comment on it. Too abstract :P. Also, the entire conversation about Fate/World confuses me so I'll step past that as well :)

Lol, it's not that hard to comprehend, i just did a really bad job presenting it. I will search for a thread about metaphysics and post it there with a better description and examples. If you want to get an idea about the watcher watched paradox, google "schrodinger's cat".

Believe me its not your fault that I don't get it.

One more note: You might have refered to Madness as "you all" and/or "they", and Madness reffered to himself as "us". Either yall are crazy of your forget that we can all speak for ourselves :). Other of the forum have agency here as well!

Yea, i shouldn't have made such a generalization, i am sorry.
I was mostly joking ;)
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« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2014, 01:07:23 am »
Quote
I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.

@ SkiesOfAzel - I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this!

SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2014, 02:56:17 am »
Quote
I've also toyed with the idea that the No God is a trap for the ciphrang (including the hundred) and that's why there are no new births, Yatwer has left the building. Maybe they used an important quantity of souls to draw the hundred in its mini outside and trap them there, negating damnation.

@ SkiesOfAzel - I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this!

There isn't much more to say about it, the Gods/Ciphrang are attracted to souls, so a mini outside foul of souls might work as a trap for them. I mentioned it because it kind of fits the name (the outside is actually inside it) and it's a plausible explanation for the womb plague and the fact that the Gods can't see Mog, but i don't like it :P:

- If that's all it took, there would be no effort to reduce the population, no ciphrang equals no damnation.

- The No God has a consciousnesses and it has been summoned, so it is a single entity that already existed. Since it constantly asks everyone what do they see, it probably lacked identity before the summoning. The only such being i can think of that could potentially fit this state is the Solitary God, but there are other issues with this theory.

I haven't read the books in two years and my memory is really bad, i will have to give them another go at some point to be able to make a more accurate guess.

[EDIT]

I was re reading the part with Mimara's chorae near the end of the JE and i remembered why i thought Mimara knows things she shouldn't. Here is the proof:

Quote
She finds herself almost whispering in his ear. "Akka. Listen to me carefully. You remember what you said? About this place... blurring... into the Outside?"
 
"Yes. The treachery... The betrayal that led to its fall..."
 
"No. That's not it. It's this place. This very room! It's what they did—the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas... It's what they did to their human slaves!"
 
Generations bred for the sunless mines. Used up. Cast away like moaning rubbish. Ten thousand years of sightless torment.
 
She knows this... But how?
 
"What? What do you mean?" He grimaces in pain and irritation.

This happens when the ghost of the Non-Man King first appears.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 04:47:21 am by SkiesOfAzel »

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« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2014, 08:41:10 am »
Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.

SkiesOfAzel

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« Reply #57 on: March 23, 2014, 03:37:44 pm »
Mimara's perspective throughout Cil Aujis sees things she shouldn't be able to see, both literally out of body experiences and the metaphysical seeing as you mention.

Yeah, that's why i think anything she says that doesn't seem to have an apparent cause is suspect, in a way it comes from the darkness. Mimara is pregnant with an important soul (a big part of the God). A fetus is a separate creature, but also a part of its mother while still in the womb. The JE is just the expression of that, she shares God's vision, she remembers more than any other being about the true nature of things.

I believe that the present tense in her POV's represents that her perception is influenced by the God, which is aware of all timespace, so there is no past or feature. If you consider God a system, then time itself is the emergent property that expresses the interaction between it's parts.

Alia

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« Reply #58 on: March 23, 2014, 04:28:16 pm »
Good catch, Alia. That is a line I only noticed after reading WLW. But Esmenet notes that Sarcellus smells of myrrh, I believe, in TDTCB.

Not only that. I did a quick search and the smell of myrrh is also present at Inrau's death and at Esmenet's meeting with Synthese (and that's the one scene that I remembered the most).
The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

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« Reply #59 on: March 23, 2014, 04:57:42 pm »
@ SOA - I like the idea of the carapace as a spirit trap.  Like you said, no ciphrangs, no damnation.  Souls find oblivion in the now empty outside?  It seems to fit with the some other bits: what kellhus said he found in the outside (god broken into a million pieces) and what old moe says at the end of TTT (the god sleeps our purpose is to awaken him).  If Mog is all of the spirits bound in one, then it is all the fragments of god combined, it awakes, its 'eyes' open and it sees that it needs to be seen.  LOL, idk.  :)

Inchoroi = Ghost Busters