The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 13, 2017, 06:02:54 pm

Title: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 13, 2017, 06:02:54 pm
Today I was browsing the older threads about TSA at westeros.org when I came across a mention of a Bakker AMA from April of this year. There is a reply (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6366ko/r_scott_bakker_on_fantasy_philosophy_and_dooooom/dfrugbx/) on there where Bakker states that Nonman/human hybrids that survive past birth are sterile.
Does this mean that the rape of Omindalea (and subsequent hybrid son/descendants) is definitely not canon? Or does it just mean that the Anasûrimbor do not descend from that particular hybrid after all? Seems strange that they wouldn't, after all, Nanor-Ukkerja lived to be 178 because of his supposed Nonman ancestry, and there are also the possibilities implied regarding Nonman genes among the Dûnyain.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Woden on August 13, 2017, 06:43:48 pm
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 13, 2017, 07:09:47 pm
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

Pretty much, yes, though we don't know what is the exact maximum lifespan that a chanv user can achieve (if I remember correctly, PON and/or the TTT glossary have it as "over a hundred years").


And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".

I had forgotten that, thank you. Then...Bakker changed his mind? Or was there possibly something special about Omindalea's son that allowed him to be able to reproduce? (Maybe it has something to do with which parent is the Nonman and which is the human?)
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Woden on August 13, 2017, 07:25:15 pm
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 13, 2017, 08:00:36 pm
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.

I don't think anything else is mentioned about Cimoira besides the fact that she was raised among the Nonmen as one of them. It's possible that she was indeed sterile while Sanna-Jephera (had to look up his name, Cimoira's is far easier to remember) wasn't.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Woden on August 13, 2017, 08:14:41 pm
In the PON wiki:

"Anasûrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house Anasûrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjë adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasûrimbor."
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: The Sharmat on August 14, 2017, 06:47:44 am
It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Woden on August 14, 2017, 09:37:36 am
Yes, that is a sound possibility too.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 14, 2017, 09:45:35 am
In the PON wiki:

"Anasûrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house Anasûrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjë adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasûrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasûrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.

Very possible, yes, maybe he was just a regular human who happened to live a few years past age 100 (still possible in this setting, there's also the case of Ajencis) and the story grew in the telling to the extent that modern-day Eärwans think he lived to 178.
And/or historians were misled by the dates of birth and death of Nanor-Ukkerja and a son of his with the same name (which has happened frequently in real life).
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Wilshire on August 17, 2017, 05:15:24 pm
In the PON wiki:

"Anasûrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjë (772-858) of the house Anasûrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqû. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjë adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasûrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasûrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on August 17, 2017, 08:08:39 pm
Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.

Hmm, I wondered if that could be the case. I guess we could consider Sanna-Jephera as the only fertile hybrid as canon (or close enough?) then? Cimoira being sterile would change nothing as we have no evidence anyone was/is descended from her, so Bakker's comment about sterile hybrids would still work for her.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Wilshire on August 18, 2017, 03:31:05 pm
The whole story is largely removed from the canon text, other than a brief mention buried in one of the other entries. I thought the missing entry lends credence to what makes the Anasurimbor special - as they most certainly are whether its among the Dunyain, the worldborn, or in the Sarcophagus. I haven't identified anything else that makes that family so Great.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Madness on August 19, 2017, 04:12:22 pm
It seems clear to me that he wanted the entry in both Glossaries and was surprised both times by the missing information.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 19, 2018, 06:34:23 pm
I'm "resurrecting" this topic because there are a couple of things I wanted to add to this discussion (and keep forgetting to...).

On Cimoira: she has been discussed quite a bit over the years, I suppose, but there's something that I've never seen brought up (might be I haven't found the right threads).
Both "Cûno-Inchoroi Wars" entries in the TTT and TUC glossaries state that (bolding mine):
Quote
Apparently Sirwitta had seduced the wife of a high-ranking Ishroi and conceived by her a daughter named Cimoira. The Judges of the Ishroi were perplexed: such a thing had never happened before. The truth of Cimoira was suppressed, and despite her mannish blood she was accepted as Cûnuroi.
Which means that Cimoira would not have been obviously identified as a hybrid by her appearance alone. She had a close enough resemblance to any full-blooded Cûnuroi female that no one would know the truth about her ancestry without already being aware of it (or being told of it).
This raises interesting questions regarding the other known Cûnuroi/Halaroi hybrid, Anasûrimbor Sanna-Jephera. Did the fact that Sanna-Jephera's Cûnoroi parent was his father rather than his mother influence his appearance? (that does happen in nature with animal hybrids) Or did he, like Cimoira before him, looked enough like a Nonman to pass for one? It certainly makes me wonder how well he would have been accepted as his grandfather's successor once Sanna-Neorjë had died. Let us consider: he was a) illegitimate, b) born of rape, c) not fully human, d) a descendant from the female line. All factors that could have a strong impact in how well he was accepted as a lord (seeing as the Anasûrimbor were not yet kings at this time?). Add to all of this the fact that he did not even look human, and well...there's definitely a story there that I wish we could know.


The other thing: in the link to the Bakker AMA of April 2017 I posted at the beginning in this thread, Bakker says:
Quote
But the big thing is that Nonmen tend to look at humans as clever forms of wildlife, and congress with them as bestiality.
Not all of them, apparently!
From chapter 11 of TJE, Achamian tells the Skin Eaters (and Mimara) about the different versions of the story of Nostol:
Quote
In the second, Nostol himself seduced Weyukat, whom the Nonman King prized above all his other concubines, since she had twice carried his seed to pregnancy, if not to term-among few human women ever to do so.
So we do in fact have evidence of other hybrids (assuming there is at least some truth to this story), just non-viable ones. Apparently, Gin'yursis was not above considering the "breeding with humans" option, despite what Bakker had to say (again, this depends on the truth of this tale). An interesting tidbit nonetheless...
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 11:38:06 am
Cimoira is often forgotten, which is kind of funny considering she was actually in the books, unlike Sanna-Jephera.

It is interesting given that line from TDTCB - "The strong seed forces the womb" - which I interpret as some kind legitimate statement about genetics rather than an old wives tale. I would suspect that the hybrid child with a male father would look like the father, though obviously this isn't the case.

So ignoring that, if we look at this one known case, we can see that the Mother influenced had a primary influence on the hybrid appearance, then maybe with Sanna-Jephera its more likely that he looked like his Halaroi mother. That, and some greater influence of the Nonman blood, might make what we'd consider to look like a typical human.

Aside, I would imagine a few centuries of not having women around might break down the taboo against congress with non-nonmen. That, and you can always find people with different preferences in a given population, so I assume the nonmen were no different. That it was a King seems strange, but the wealthy and powerful are accustomed to breaking societal norms, getting what they want when they want, and generally enjoy a kind of social impunity that an average person might not enjoy.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 12:37:53 pm
Cimoira is often forgotten, which is kind of funny considering she was actually in the books, unlike Sanna-Jephera.

It's almost as if she wasn't interesting because she wasn't an Anasûrimbor... ;)
I, for one, do think she's an intriguing character, would add her to my still-hypothetical "Top 20 TSA Female Characters I Wish We Knew More About".


It is interesting given that line from TDTCB - "The strong seed forces the womb" - which I interpret as some kind legitimate statement about genetics rather than an old wives tale. I would suspect that the hybrid child with a male father would look like the father, though obviously this isn't the case.

So ignoring that, if we look at this one known case, we can see that the Mother influenced had a primary influence on the hybrid appearance, then maybe with Sanna-Jephera its more likely that he looked like his Halaroi mother. That, and some greater influence of the Nonman blood, might make what we'd consider to look like a typical human.

There it is again, "the seed is strong" idea (to borrow a phrase from A Song of Ice and Fire). I myself do not disagree with that, but is it just an opinion characters have in-story or do most people in Eärwa do actually resemble their fathers? (That would be a good thread for another time...) The issue is a bit muddled in that, in most cases where X is said to resemble their father, Y, we don't even know how the mother looked like.
After my speculation in my previous post of what the ramifications of a Cûnuroi-looking Sanna-Jephera would be, I think I agree with you and it is far more likely that he looked more like a Halaroi.
I wonder if he would have some sort of "strangeness" about him that would mark him as not fully human, same for Cimoira but with the species reversed.
Difficult to say if any hybrid that happened to survive past birth would tend to look more like their mother's species, given we just have two examples (and we only know what one of them looked like).


Aside, I would imagine a few centuries of not having women around might break down the taboo against congress with non-nonmen. That, and you can always find people with different preferences in a given population, so I assume the nonmen were no different. That it was a King seems strange, but the wealthy and powerful are accustomed to breaking societal norms, getting what they want when they want, and generally enjoy a kind of social impunity that an average person might not enjoy.

I absolutely agree, I felt it was necessary to point out that it did happen, as someone who doesn't remember this TJE passage and just remembers what Bakker said on the matter might have a different opinion.
And just look at the sentence following the part I posted before:
Quote
In this version, the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas had rejoiced, thinking that the resulting child, if female, could herald the resurrection of their dying race-only to discover that the infant boy was wholly human.
There was definitely an element of desperation there too...though even if a hybrid female child had been born, I doubt they'd have been able to overcome the massive genetic bottleneck that would follow (even with some more female hybrids).
Given what we were just discussing above, it's interesting to note that in this case they could tell that the baby was fully human right at birth. However, this was probably because Nostol was Norsirai and Weyukat was Emwama, so their child might have looked very obviously Norsirai.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: BeardFisher-King on March 21, 2018, 03:39:37 pm
I would interpret "the strong seed forces the womb" as a statement concerning the potency of the male seed, its aptness for quickening, rather than the ability to carry genetic traits.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 03:48:36 pm
I would interpret "the strong seed forces the womb" as a statement concerning the potency of the male seed, its aptness for quickening, rather than the ability to carry genetic traits.

That's a good interpretation, BFK, I always thought it was something more along the lines of "the seed is strong" (like I said above) but you might be right. It would make more sense...
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 03:53:30 pm
do most people in Eärwa do actually resemble their fathers?
I doubt tthere's enough cannon information to answer that question.
We have the fact that Kellhus' children look like him, I think, which is strange considering what would be a host of recessive traits IRL (Blond hair, blue eyes, etc.).
We also have the Scylvendi legends of women being killed for having blond haired children, which again is strange given what I assume is their typical genetic heritage - you wouldn't assume that blonde hair would show up at all.

Can't think of much else - not a lot of evidence really.


I wonder if he would have some sort of "strangeness" about him that would mark him as not fully human, same for Cimoira but with the species reversed.
Probably. Humans are spectacular at pattern recognition. Seems very likely that though he might otherwise be normal looking, or even beautiful given the Nonmen general physique, I'm sure people would see an 'otherness' in his appearance. This could be a turn on, rather than a turn off, though - making people drawn to him rather than the reverse.

Difficult to say if any hybrid that happened to survive past birth would tend to look more like their mother's species, given we just have two examples (and we only know what one of them looked like).
Insufficient data


I absolutely agree, I felt it was necessary to point out that it did happen, as someone who doesn't remember this TJE passage and just remembers what Bakker said on the matter might have a different opinion.
Besides, what does Bakker even know :P .
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 04:40:08 pm
I doubt tthere's enough cannon information to answer that question.
We have the fact that Kellhus' children look like him, I think, which is strange considering what would be a host of recessive traits IRL (Blond hair, blue eyes, etc.).
We also have the Scylvendi legends of women being killed for having blond haired children, which again is strange given what I assume is their typical genetic heritage - you wouldn't assume that blonde hair would show up at all.

Can't think of much else - not a lot of evidence really.

I don't even know we should count the children of Dûnyain fathers for that, because they seem to have their own specific super-dominant genetics at work. I would assume that the children of a non-Dûnyain Norsirai man and a Ketyai woman would not look like the children of Kellhus and Esmenet, for the most part. Sure, there would be a slightly possibility of blond hair and/or blue eyes appearing in one or two of the children, depending on what recessives the mother might have (just look at green-eyed Mimara, for instance). Aside from that, I have a hard time believing children of mixed Norsirai/Ketyai ethnicity wouldn't be mostly black-haired, brown-eyed and dark-skinned (though lighter-skinned than full-blooded Ketyai people).
That was just the case of Cnaiür's mother, if I remember correctly...were there others? You are right in that it would be strange that blond hair would appear at all among the apparently highly homogenous (from a genetic standpoint) black-haired Scylvendi population. But there is - once again - the involvement of Dûnyain genetics in this case, so we can't conclude anything from that. (Dûnyain could probably have children with Satyothi women that would come out blond, blue-eyed and pale-skinned, as completely genetically implausible as that sounds.)
Scylvendi do tend to capture Norsirai women from time to time, right? So I think there could be some genes for blond hair around, but definitely not widespread (this is probably the case with Anissi (http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki/Anissi), for instance). We do know of a(nother) person of mixed Scylvendi/Norsirai ethnicity (Moënghus II) that strongly favours the Scylvendi side (but again, one case, can't conclude anything).
One of these days I have to make a thread listing the appearances of all available characters compared to their parents (Dûnyain and part-Dûnyain excluded) to see if there really is anything there.


Probably. Humans are spectacular at pattern recognition. Seems very likely that though he might otherwise be normal looking, or even beautiful given the Nonmen general physique, I'm sure people would see an 'otherness' in his appearance. This could be a turn on, rather than a turn off, though - making people drawn to him rather than the reverse.

I can see that being the case, Sanna-Jephera having a kind of strange beauty, with more chiseled features than regular humans and the like. Maybe he would have paler skin than the average Norsirai, too.
Cimoira, on the other hand, might have had slightly softer and more rounded features than the average Cûnuroi (but not too noticeable), maybe slightly larger eyes too.
(And this just gets me thinking that we need fanart of these two...)


Insufficient data

Exactly.


Besides, what does Bakker even know :P .

Now, now, Wilshire, I'm not saying anything against Bakker by any means. :P What he said in that AMA seemed to be the general rule among Nonmen anyway, Gin'yursis seemed to be in the minority there (assuming, of course, that part of the legends is true).
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: Wilshire on March 21, 2018, 05:04:42 pm
My Bakker comment was largely serious. His remarks post-text are nearly always confusing, rarely enlightening, and tend to be in general (or specific) conflict with what he actually wrote lol.

Regarding Scylvendi, I forgot that the progeny we saw was Moenghus'. Still, the tradition was there - killing the mother and child if the child is born with blond hair - so there seems to be something to that. No telling how uncommon it was... Maybe the Norsari fair skinned/eyed traits are just dominant in Earwa. That's just as likely as anything else - no reason why  blond/blue has to be recessive.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: MSJ on March 21, 2018, 05:23:40 pm
Quote from:  Wilshire
My Bakker comment was largely serious. His remarks post-text are nearly always confusing, rarely enlightening, and tend to be in general (or specific) conflict with what he actually wrote lol.

Which is why they should largely be ignored. I think he definitely is honest on some subjects, but when you get to plot and mysteries of the series, he is Ajokli. Take for example, the question on who the man who Kellhus speaks to in his dreams are. Someone wrote Ajokli. Bakker says, "That's a close assumption.", or something close enough, don't take that verbatim. My point is, everybody says Bakker portrays his self as Kellhus, I'd say he's more a Ajokli. When it comes to plot you get no straightforward answer and if it seems you do, you're more than likely being duped. I don't blame him. I wouldn't give my story away on a Q&A or AMA. It bothers so many people. Just do what I do and don't really worry about. If you wanna believe him, fine. But, don't go crying when Cnaüir shows back up in book 6 and might be a damn God now.
Title: Re: Nonman/Human Hybrids
Post by: ThoughtsOfThelli on March 21, 2018, 05:41:25 pm
My Bakker comment was largely serious. His remarks post-text are nearly always confusing, rarely enlightening, and tend to be in general (or specific) conflict with what he actually wrote lol.

I understand completely, I just feel that I am not in a position to criticize Bakker, being a relative newbie to this fandom/community, unlike you, get what I mean? But I do tend to disregard that specific comment (among others) and stick to what's in the actual books...


Regarding Scylvendi, I forgot that the progeny we saw was Moenghus'. Still, the tradition was there - killing the mother and child if the child is born with blond hair - so there seems to be something to that. No telling how uncommon it was... Maybe the Norsari fair skinned/eyed traits are just dominant in Earwa. That's just as likely as anything else - no reason why  blond/blue has to be recessive.

While Scylvendi men fathering children with Norsirai women (or women with Norsirai ancestry) that might end up being blond was acceptable (though full-Scylvendi children did seem to be better regarded, being more "pure-blooded"), Scylvendi women birthing blond children would almost always mean that an affair with a non-Scylvendi man had taken place, hence the honour killing.
It's not impossible that Norsirai traits are dominant in Eärwa, yes, I might be influenced by real-world genetics here. Not enough examples of mixed-race characters with a Norsirai parent to serve as evidence for or against that hypothesis.