[Wilshire]

I'm just suggesting that in Four revelations there was no 'now', just a series of events. Even while being tortured the nonman in question would wonder off. With an Elju, there would be someone to remind him of where is body was, to call them back from ancient times to 'now'.

This reminds me of the Hundred, which are said to receive time differently. Doesn't the Nonman Erratic stream of conscious seem to see all time as happening equally? The only difference, perhaps, is that the Nonman cannot see into the future. Seems terribly similar though.

Almost like (this is where you, as the reader, should roll your eyes and shake your head, thinking "here we go"):
A Nonman intellect that transcended time, maybe even one that forged his own space in the Outside, one that fell between the gods and in that empty space created his own slice of objective reality. A Nonman become the very thing he despised, in order to survive.

[TheDeliverator]

I'm going to ramble a bit...  You've been warned!

Bakker's point in the Four Revelations...  To show how different Nonmen consciousness\souls are.  No?  Is there evidence Cinial’jin is an erratic at the moment\moments of the tale?  I assumed he was intact at the time of the tale.  Even if he is an erratic, I'm sot sure Bakker's point is any different.  Nilgiccas' quote from the end of WLW comes to mind. 

"We are many!" the Erratic roared.  "We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."

Simply, a Nonman soul can (somehow), count or is aware of the moments which divide it and of the divisions.  Man's cannot and thus believes itself to be One when it is in fact many divisions.  How can this not be connected to how we perceive Cinial’jin revelations?  Also, this appears to explain how Shaeönanra divides human souls to stay alive...

I don't see much of a connection to their Elju except that perhaps they would serve as an anchor to 'now'.

How could a proper Elju function w/o a small understanding of Nonmen consciousness?  Is it as simple as understanding how to use memory fulcrums?  If so, how would Kosoter have known how to manipulate Cleric by using Akka and Mimara as memory fulcrums?  Is it knowledge the Zaudyani Captain would have had just from his life experience?  Can it be random chance?  Did someone (Kelhus), teach him?  How does Kosoter become in possession of Cleric anyways...


Another tangent...  During his battle with Akka, Nilgiccas speaks of Becoming

Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul!

What is Nil'giccas' aim here?  What will he gain by shedding his soul and Becoming?  Surely Nilgiccas knows...  Do y'all?  I have an idea, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Also, does he fail in Becoming?  He asks Akka WTF just happened as he lies impaled?

I think I may have to start quoting earlier in the chapter, rather then just the quote which gave rise to my question.  I'm going to try and just use the character's words from the chapter.  Why?  The entire conversation takes place between episodes of Mimara's POV and is filled with descriptions Akka\The Nonman's actions\feelings...  A bunch of distractions!  Also, quoting huge swaths of book would lead to an even larger post than this already is.  All Italics and Capitalization are Bakker's...

Akka (Armed with the revelation from Mimara about who Cleric is), confronts the Nonman at Sauglish

"Incariol,"... "Why that name?"

N: "Because I wander."

A: "and Cleric?"

N: "It is a tradition... I think... A tradition among the Siqu to take a mannish name."

A: "You are Nil'giccas"... The Last King of Mansions."

N: "No, He is dead."

A: "No, He is quite Alive, gazing upon me"

Akka then falls prostrate at the Nonman's feet...

After Mimara's POV

N: "You are confused, mortal, Rise."

After a discussion of Kosoter being his book and the Nonman remembering Seswatha

A: "Please, my lord.  Take me as your book!... Regain your honour!  Reclaim your glory!"

N: "So... You offer me oblivion?"  "No, I will ruin and I will break."  "Honour?"  "Love?  What are these but dross before oblivion?  No! I will seize the world and I will shake from it what misery, what anguish, I can.  I will remember!"

Fairly straight forward so far.  The Nonman claiming Nil'giccas is dead can be seen as Nil'giccas being an erratic, etc...  Akka realizes he can't be the Nonman's book, he and Mimara are to be the memory fulcrum.

After the Nonman explains that Ishterbinth has turned to the Consult, a few Mimara POV's and finding Wutteat...

N: "This...  This is where I am meant to die."

The above is interesting, but perhaps not to this discussion...  unless it is?

After Akka's convo with Wutteat about truth...

N: "Run, Save them while you still can."

A: "Them?"

N: "Your wife and child."

Cleric (at the very least), knows who the father is.  He must (?), want them saved so he can remember them later.

After a Mimara POV & during the beginning of the Dragon fight

N: "I am Quaya! I am Ishroi!  Five of your sons and daughters I have slain!"

Wutteat: "YOU ARE BUT A SNAIL!  A SNAIL TORN FROM IT'S SHELL!"

N: "I am Nil'giccas-I am Cleric!  And you will hear my sermon!"

The Nonman says he is both Nil'giccas and Cleric!

Anyways, after a bunch of Mimara POV's and the end of the Dragon fight.  The Nonman empties his pouch of Qirri!  The motive for that is interesting but another topic... unless it's not.

A: "You don't have to do this!"

N: "Because I remember no triumph...  Only betrayal!  Heartbreak and ruin!

A: "I will name you!  I will be your book, and you will read me!  You are Nil'giccas!  The last King of Mansions-the greatest of the Siqu!"

N: Nil'giccas!  you call-beseech! as if trying to awaken some truth slumbering within me.  You think Nil'giccas is something I have lost!  And therefore something I can recover!  You forget, that before the Nonman King's passing, I did not exist! I can no more recover him than you can recover your mother's virgin womb.  I am Incariol!  Cleric!  And you shall not survive my lesson!  You think the cripple!  You think Cleric the ruin of someone whole!  But you are wrong, Seswatha! I am the Truth!  "We are many!" the Erratic roared.  "We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One.  Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul! Only then does Darkness sing untrammeled!  Only then!"

A: And yet you seek memories!

N: To be! Being is not a choice!

A: But you claim Being is deception!

N: Yes!

A: But that is nonsense! Madness!

N: That is Becoming

Akka then kills the Nonman.

N: What just happened?  Wh-what just..."

A: You found Glory

So...  When Akka kneels before the Nonman thinking he is Nil'giccas, the Nonman tells him to rise because the Nonman in front of him is no longer Nil'giccas, but Cleric.  Before the Nonman King's passing!?  Is the Cleric division speaking of Nil'giccas or another king (I'm assuming Nil'giccas, but perhaps the king in Cil Aujis)? 

The Nonman goes on to explain the divisions in the soul and that Cleric can not (somehow), access Nil'giccas.  The Nonman compares this to a child recovering his mother's womb.  So a division in the Nonman soul is in some sense born separate from the prior incarnation?  Cleric's soul has the DNA of Nil'giccas' soul, but is like a wee 'lil child soul!!???  Yet, the total Nonman soul is aware of it's division (alluded to at the top of this post). 

So in Becoming, is Cleric attempting to create a division in his soul or is the goal of becoming something else entirely?  Is this why he says to Akka "This is where I die?  Does he mean consciousness of Cleric divides here!?

I dunno guys\gals...

[Callan S.]

The Nonman compares this to a child recovering his mother's womb.  So a division in the Nonman soul is in some sense born separate from the prior incarnation?  Cleric's soul has the DNA of Nil'giccas' soul, but is like a wee 'lil child soul!!???  Yet, the total Nonman soul is aware of it's division (alluded to at the top of this post).

Some afterbirth still remains. And on occasion, speaks.

[Wilshire]

I liked that post a lot. Lots of good thoughts in there.


I especially like that you pointed out the "birthing" of new souls. I think that could be important. Especially since I don't believe the Nonman suicided here.

Here is my new interpretation of Nonman:


With those quoted sections, it seems to me that the Nonman, when he says "This is where I die", was referring to some kind of rebirth rather than actually being killed (which would explain his confusion when he ended up actually dieing). Maybe he was planning on doing some kind of soul division, becoming a new 'person'. Casting off his old self, Cleric/Incariol, as he had done before with Nil'.

Quick digression: Cleric/Incariol.
The distinction of names is important. I think that Incariol is the name Nil' either chose or was given, after he shed off his 'life' as the former Last King of the Mansion. Incariol The Wanderer, no longer a King at all, then found the Skin-Eaters (or Kellhus found him and then sent him there, whatever). Once there, he chose a more human sounding name, Cleric. This though, is significantly different than his Old Name. Cleric just a simple nickname for Incariol, rather than some kind of soul division. In a sense, Nil' and Incariol are no more the same person as You and I, as long as you consider the Soul the 'thing' that makes you 'you', but I and Wilshire are simply 2 names for the same person.

Anyway, Incariol now (specifically not Nil'Giccas), chose to "Die" at this spot. But dieing probably has a significantly different meaning to a crazy immortal Nonman than it does to you or I. Incariol had chosen this spot to be the birth of a new persona, a new soul. He was going to allow his former self to "Become" (not sure the importance of that yet).


A: And yet you seek memories!

N: To be! Being is not a choice!

A: But you claim Being is deception!

N: Yes!

A: But that is nonsense! Madness!

N: That is Becoming

By ceasing to be (BTW, what is synonymous with ceasing to be? How about Dieing) he could cast off memories and move into whatever 'Becoming' is. But "Being is not a choice" so ex-Incariol must live on. However, this new persona is Born, insert phoenix analogy. This new No-Incariol would live on, finding his own way, remembering only the suffering of those past lives, that Nil'Giccas, that Incariol, while moving forward making new memories that he would remember until he once again decided to split his soul.

Elju:
With the above in mind, I hold fast to my earlier idea of what an Elju is. Incariol has no need to remember his past lives, but there is obviously some kind of bleeding effect, where those past memories come through into 'now'. The elju's job is not to remember everything that happened, but to keep the Nonman from getting completely lost in his own memories.

Yatwer:
She must really hate the Nonman, who can give birth without any woman at all

How could a proper Elju function w/o a small understanding of Nonmen consciousness? 
Is it as simple as understanding how to use memory fulcrums? 
If so, how would Kosoter have known how to manipulate Cleric by using Akka and Mimara as memory fulcrums? 
Is it knowledge the Zaudyani Captain would have had just from his life experience?  Can it be random chance? 
Did someone (Kelhus), teach him?  How does Kosoter become in possession of Cleric anyways...

To answer how Kosoter did what he did, I tend to mark it all down as Kellhus manipulation. The guy is a complete fanatic, and he tells us he has explicit instruction from Kellhus to keep Mimara alive. He obviously had some dealing with Kell, and is therefore under his influence. Also, there is no way that the Skin-Eaters just happened to find the most powerful Quya wandering around in the woods. And it didnt just happen that Akka picked the one band of scalpers that had a Nonman. Kellhus manipulated a large portion of that story, and Kosoter more than anything else.

[locke]

hmm, an oddball interpretation could be that Nonmen reincarnate souls onto themselves, in order to preserve an intact persona (Being) so that they can pursue Becoming (absorbed by Oblivion?).

I wonder at the This is where I die comment, (followed by an assertion that he is nil giccis now) could nonmen see all three directions? Past present and future?  Is that becoming?  Is that why their statues/art are always in three phases of time?

Here's a bizarre question.  is the grafting of Bashrag (three fold, three arms, three legs etc) a crude attempt by the inchoroi to imitate nonmen art?

[TheDeliverator]

hmm, an oddball interpretation could be that Nonmen reincarnate souls onto themselves, in order to preserve an intact persona (Being) so that they can pursue Becoming (absorbed by Oblivion?).

Because of this quote, I am not convinced... yet. 

"So..."  the Nonman King said, raising eyes savage for their mirth.  "You offer me oblivion?" 

Too late the old Wizard recognized his mistake.

"No... I-"

The Nonman whirled, grasped him with a strength that made the Wizard feel bone thin, bone frail.  "I will not die a husk!" he cried.  He rolled his head from shoulder to shoulder in his curious, mad and explosive way.  He flung out his hands to clutch the air.

"No!  I will ruin and I will break!"

Also, it looks like I missed the  "I will not die a husk!" quote in my original post.  Shit.  This is a big line to miss.  It shows that the Nonman is planning on dying\dividing\birthing... but not an empty shell.  Note: It's like Bakker is revealing his revelations in groups.  Wutteat uses shell.  Nil'giccas uses husk

Something else...  right before Akka kills him...  The Nonman remembers Akka's (or Seswathwa's) name...

Your appeals only incite me!  You will die and I will remember!  Because all you do is reach for the love I bear you!"

"No! I will not strike you!"

The face of Nil'giccas resolved from the dwindling glare.  The setting sun rimmed his scalp with sickles of gold.  "I remember...  I remember your name..."

Light filled his howling mouth-blasphemous meaning...

At long last the Wizard struck

Is it possible Nil'giccas wasn't ready to actually kill Akka until that very moment of memory?  Does remembering his actual name add weight to remembering the betrayal?  He says "I will remember," then DOES actually remember the moment Akka refuses to strike (professes his love one MOAR time...  Finally tipping the scales), and begins to lash out at Achamian.  Have I lost the plot guys\gals?  I kinda think I have.

I wonder at the This is where I die comment, (followed by an assertion that he is nil giccis now) could nonmen see all three directions? Past present and future?  Is that becoming?  Is that why their statues/art are always in three phases of time?

Here's a bizarre question.  is the grafting of Bashrag (three fold, three arms, three legs etc) a crude attempt by the inchoroi to imitate nonmen art?

Interesting.  I like.

[locke]

Tie in Names to Meaning in the tradition of sorcery metaphysics.  Perhaps Nil Giccis was preparing to strike because he was weaving the name he remembered into his sorcery?

[TheDeliverator]

looks like the intarwebs ate part of my post...

Here it is:

A few things which bug me.

Why is Incariol\Cleric so insistent on killing Achamian\Mimara if he is going to Become\Divide?  Only thing I can come up with: The act must be the fulcrum for the event which will birth the new soul\consciousness.  If that's the case, what type of event birthed Incariol from Nil'giccas?  Damn... must have been crazy.  Vanquishing Wutteat had no affect on Becoming, so love\tragedy is definitely a factor

Also, can we be sure the Nonman was just trying to birth a new soul?  Perhaps something more?  Become a God?  I keep thinking what would be the point of Becoming a new soul...now (timing as ever Mr. Bakker!).  Another soul doomed to live a tortured life between memory and no memory, love, betrayal and tragedy.  Nil'giccas\Cleric already has that.  What about the confrontation to come would facilitate Becoming?  Can it just be the opportunity of having Akka and Mimara nearby be the reason to birth\divide?  And, if Nil'giccas failed, what does that portend?

Something else I haven't quite been able to ascertain.  Bakker's naming of the Nonman.  I had a larger post written in an attempt to identify a pattern when RSB writes the Nonman as Cleric and when as Nil'giccas... The Nonman and The Nonman King.  In the end I could not identify a pattern...

There is a distinct point in the chapter where Cleric\The Nonman is no longer used and Nil'giccas\Nonman King is.  Problem is, just as quick, Bakker sweeps Cleric back into the narrative along with Nil'giccas and I just couldn't prove Bakker was attempting to make a point to the reader.  It could just be something akin to: writing that section of the chapter on a different day.  <--- Unlikely, but when the kernel of awareness twinkled in my minds I eye thought Bakker would be more stark in his distinction.  Maybe one of y'all can figure it out.

[locke]

Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

[TheDeliverator]

Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

Hmmmmm...

I'm willing to be lead somewhere if your willing to show the way.  Whatever the benefits are, they can't in anyway prevent Damnation...  or Nonmen would never have gone over to the Consult.

[locke]

I'm not sure we know enough to say whether or not qirri has a role in the transcendence/oblivion/damnation axes.

[Madness]

I think we're ignoring some fairly obvious intentions - this seems to reflect the Erratic's great act of trauma and, to me, it seems obvious that Cleric cannot kill Achamian until he remembers Seswatha.

Also, Deliverator, in light of this discussion, I'd be very interested in what you make of my thoughts from Dunyain and Nonmen.

How could a proper Elju function w/o a small understanding of Nonmen consciousness?  Is it as simple as understanding how to use memory fulcrums?  If so, how would Kosoter have known how to manipulate Cleric by using Akka and Mimara as memory fulcrums?  Is it knowledge the Zaudyani Captain would have had just from his life experience?  Can it be random chance?  Did someone (Kelhus), teach him?  How does Kosoter become in possession of Cleric anyways...

Kellhus would have to have coached Kosoter on being an elju. From what I understood from Achamian's POVs of TAE, Kosoter might even be lying to Nil'giccas. Perhaps, that is where Incariol came from and why Achamian can't remember his name - it's a creation of Kellhus and Kosoter to control Nil'giccas. But, in my opinion, there is no way that Kosoter could fulfill such a role without Kellhus.

Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul!

What is Nil'giccas' aim here?  What will he gain by shedding his soul and Becoming?  Surely Nilgiccas knows...  Do y'all?  I have an idea, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Also, does he fail in Becoming?  He asks Akka WTF just happened as he lies impaled?

You'll have some of my thoughts in that other thread. However, in light of discussion here, I might hazard the alternative that trying to remember Nil'giccas and the acts Cleric must do, to do so, just isn't fun. Memories are a big thing here, and while I support lockesnow's assertion that we should consider Earwan reality, rather than our own (metaphysical consequences of the mundane, etc), we might first analogize towards degenerations akin to Alzheimer's; stranded in a perpetual now.

N: "So... You offer me oblivion?"  "No, I will ruin and I will break."  "Honour?"  "Love?  What are these but dross before oblivion?  No! I will seize the world and I will shake from it what misery, what anguish, I can.  I will remember!"

Fairly straight forward so far.  The Nonman claiming Nil'giccas is dead can be seen as Nil'giccas being an erratic, etc...  Akka realizes he can't be the Nonman's book, he and Mimara are to be the memory fulcrum.

He will do anything, commit any trespass, to remember those he loved.

Cleric (at the very least), knows who the father is.  He must (?), want them saved so he can remember them later.

Is he thinking of Achamian and Mimara... or Seswatha and the Queen...?

Anyways, after a bunch of Mimara POV's and the end of the Dragon fight.  The Nonman empties his pouch of Qirri!  The motive for that is interesting but another topic... unless it's not.

I always thought, if Kosoter is actually on the up-and-up with Cleric, then ditching the stash in front of the addict was a way to incite the trauma-necessary combat between the memory fulcrums and the Erratic - classic power play, though obviously, Achamian and Mimara bung this up slightly by trying to give up their addictions themselves.

I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed that arc! Fantasy and drugs?!

N: Nil'giccas!  you call-beseech! as if trying to awaken some truth slumbering within me.  You think Nil'giccas is something I have lost!  And therefore something I can recover!  You forget, that before the Nonman King's passing, I did not exist! I can no more recover him than you can recover your mother's virgin womb.  I am Incariol!  Cleric!  And you shall not survive my lesson!  You think the cripple!  You think Cleric the ruin of someone whole!  But you are wrong, Seswatha! I am the Truth!  "We are many!" the Erratic roared.  "We are legion!  What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability!  A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One.  Only when memory is stripped away!  Only then is being revealed as pure Becoming!  Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our soul! Only then does Darkness sing untrammeled!  Only then!"

Again, if we looked at this from a simple mundane memory perspective, metaphysical aside, this seems an example of a more stable persona exerted it's influence over others, less concrete ones.

The Nonman goes on to explain the divisions in the soul and that Cleric can not (somehow), access Nil'giccas.  The Nonman compares this to a child recovering his mother's womb.  So a division in the Nonman soul is in some sense born separate from the prior incarnation?  Cleric's soul has the DNA of Nil'giccas' soul, but is like a wee 'lil child soul!!???  Yet, the total Nonman soul is aware of it's division (alluded to at the top of this post).

Nil'giccas is essential a womb to Cleric, following the memory and personalities trend: Nil'giccas is the physical form, the life lived, that gave rise to Cleric. Cleric could no more have existed, if Nil'giccas has not lived, than you or I could've without our mother's.

To answer how Kosoter did what he did, I tend to mark it all down as Kellhus manipulation. The guy is a complete fanatic, and he tells us he has explicit instruction from Kellhus to keep Mimara alive. He obviously had some dealing with Kell, and is therefore under his influence. Also, there is no way that the Skin-Eaters just happened to find the most powerful Quya wandering around in the woods. And it didnt just happen that Akka picked the one band of scalpers that had a Nonman. Kellhus manipulated a large portion of that story, and Kosoter more than anything else.

Ah, +1 .

Is it possible Nil'giccas wasn't ready to actually kill Akka until that very moment of memory?  Does remembering his actual name add weight to remembering the betrayal?  He says "I will remember," then DOES actually remember the moment Akka refuses to strike (professes his love one MOAR time...  Finally tipping the scales), and begins to lash out at Achamian.  Have I lost the plot guys\gals?  I kinda think I have.

+1 Erraticism. I'm pretty sure you got it straight.

Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

Hmmmmm...

I'm willing to be lead somewhere if your willing to show the way.  Whatever the benefits are, they can't in anyway prevent Damnation...  or Nonmen would never have gone over to the Consult.

+1. I wonder if that might have been Cleric's intention, hell, even Kellhus'?! We return again to the question of effects; Nil'giccas is noted as tasting different than Cu'jara Cinmoi.

I'm still rooting for Maggot being Pre-Born with Nonmen ancestral memories !

[Wilshire]

Haha Madness that thread we have 2 full pages of dialogue before anyone else steps in. The whole thing could use more perspectives.

[Madness]

Well, I believe the post I linked was midway through the third page but it had the most congruent thoughts to this thread - there are comments before and after ours .

[TheDeliverator]

I think we're ignoring some fairly obvious intentions - this seems to reflect the Erratic's great act of trauma and, to me, it seems obvious that Cleric cannot kill Achamian until he remembers Seswatha.

You'll have some of my thoughts in that other thread. However, in light of discussion here, I might hazard the alternative that trying to remember Nil'giccas and the acts Cleric must do, to do so, just isn't fun. Memories are a big thing here, and while I support lockesnow's assertion that we should consider Earwan reality, rather than our own (metaphysical consequences of the mundane, etc), we might first analogize towards degenerations akin to Alzheimer's; stranded in a perpetual now.

How common does the collective on this forum believe nonman Memory Fulcrums are?  How many fulcrums could remain in the current world after thousands of years?  Akka reminds Nil'giccas of Seswatha.  Mimara of his wife.  In addition, not all of the mandate can serve as Seswatha or the Cleric (with his imperative to constantly seek Memory Fulcrums), would have sought out the Mandate long before.  It seems to me, the time spent alongside Mimara and Achamian may be the least miserable existence Celric has had in a loooong time...  thus, his only chance to achieve Becoming in an age.  Rendering him easily manipulated.

Ah but Cleric/NG has conditioned achamian and mimara to accept him--nilgiccis--into their bodies--which they promptly do (which would explain why C/NG dumped the qirri to force them to burn him and accept him inside them.  perhaps bakker's Lembas-melage-dust has it's perils (for humans) and profits (for nonmen)...

Death went swirling up, afterall, when they made the C/NG qirri.

Hmmmmm...

I'm willing to be lead somewhere if your willing to show the way.  Whatever the benefits are, they can't in anyway prevent Damnation...  or Nonmen would never have gone over to the Consult.

+1. I wonder if that might have been Cleric's intention, hell, even Kellhus'?! We return again to the question of effects; Nil'giccas is noted as tasting different than Cu'jara Cinmoi.

I'm still rooting for Maggot being Pre-Born with Nonmen ancestral memories !
[/quote]

Makes me wonder if RSB is struggling with conveying all the info in the allotted pages the publisher will allow...  These books are damn short in comparison to the page counts of some authors which sell more.  This book is never coming out.