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Messages - Uncle Holy

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1
The Great Ordeal / Re: [TGO Spoilers] Whale Mothers
« on: February 21, 2017, 10:12:57 pm »
I really hate the whale-mothers. Felt like beating a dead horse and stretched my suspension of disbelief too far. When I first read the previews I held out some hope that maybe Dunyain women just ended up that way once impregnated and it was some kind of weird second-puberty, but nah, seems like they're born incubators and lack Dunyain emotional stunting and conditioning for yet another example of "Hey don't women have it bad?"

I found it disagreeable from a taste standpoint as well, but it is also flawed in that it is self-defeating and ultimately less interesting than the alternative.  Consider the following: the Dunyain turned their women into axolotl tanks because they wanted total control over their bloodline for eugenics and found lobotomized baby machines the shortest path to that goal.  But this is a form of self-harm - children don't stop needing maternal care at birth, they typically require many years of it before they reach maturity, and "Whale-mothers" can't give that.  This means that the Dunyain's chosen path was actually destructive and subversive of their goals - they needed a way to establish control of women without removing them from the natural reproductive cycle so drastically.  There was a way to do this.  You will recall that Kellhus more or less effortlessly seduced Esmenet and Serwe. I see no reason that comparatively more permanent seductions could not have been carried out under controlled conditions - and Ishual is conditioned ground.  This means that a more productive strategy would have been finding a way to perform on each Dunyain woman something akin to the sexual imprinting seen in the Honored Matres of the later Dune books - an experience so addictive that it essentially collapses the difference between intercourse in general and sex with a specific person into one event, making it impossible to conceive of having more than one mate.  This would produce the control factor.  Combined with women's natural propensity to care for their children and the general fanaticism of the Dunyain, and it would be easy to breed a sub-species of women who are totally specialized to "voluntary" breeding to the exclusion of all else: they have their children by the man they are imprinted to , and all else is unimaginable to them.  Other details could be handled in a miscellaneous manner, e.g. having those turned menopausal poison themselves as the Dunyain who received the dreams from Moenghus did.  This could even be promoted as a highly rational act, even "desirable" in a sense, since their ability to perform their function, motherhood, had come to an end; a controlled culture could have been created that would take it for granted that they would do this, a further reinforcement factor.  Or perhaps shortened lifespan could have been designed in somehow.  All of this would have gotten the eugenic job done while also providing lots of creepy feels to the audience. 

And it would have made Requires Only Hate that much madder.

You presume the early Dunyain were sophisticated enough for this technique. And that the Whale Mothers were always as they are now. Like Bakker said, they were a young sect before the First Apocalypse. The simplest solution to them at first would've just been to put them all in one room and turn them into mere wombs. That could certainly have been the Shortest Path, as far as those primitive Dunyain could see, for getting rid of distractions. Perhaps later as the Study progressed, they discovered eugenics and thought "Cool! Now we can design our kids to be even bigger monsters than we are!". But there was no real need to change things so drastically as to create a new sub-gender, when the current process worked well enough. Why introduce some new factor that could potentially slow or de-rail the Study?
I'm not sure what maternal care you're referring to but feeding the babies is something some Pragma could have been assigned. No need for that pesky attachment babies form with their mothers. Bakker's way is more plausible, I think.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Mimara
« on: January 23, 2016, 04:19:01 pm »
Personally, I always took all this talk of 'halos' as just extra craziness. Serwe was never the sanest person. She and Martemus could easily have allowed their reverence for Kellhus to literally cloud their sight. But it is weird that they both see the same thing. Kellhus admitting that he could also see halos around his hands, is weird too, unless he's as crazy as Moe said he is. A crazy/delusional full-blooded Dunyain, Yatwer preserve us :)

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello, everybody...Truth shines...
« on: July 25, 2015, 01:04:03 pm »
Thanks y'all. Decided to stick with 'Uncle Holy' after all...

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General Earwa / Re: The Prince of Nothing (Film)
« on: May 28, 2015, 10:10:12 pm »
I have only one guy in mind for Kellhus: Wentworth Miller.

Make him blond and you have our Emperor...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kelmomas' voice
« on: March 27, 2015, 09:00:50 pm »
5. Maithanet was right about him and in his un-Dunyain weakness for Esmi he kept up the labors for her sake and attempted to have a child that would not secretly revolt her.

Just throwing that out there.

Or perhaps, it's not really a weakness but there was no harm in indulging Esmi especially since when her hopes were dashed, he could shrug and say "Hey! I tried..."...plus more children meant more tools...
Quote
Immortality and bliss—this was the living promise all women bore between their thighs. Strong sons and gasping climax. If what men called truth were ever the hostage of their desires, how could they fail to make slaves of their women? To hide them like hoarded gold. To feast on them like melons. To discard them like rinds.
Was this not why he used her? The promise of sons in her hips?
Dûnyain sons.

Quote
Lying with one leg kicked free of the sheets, Kellhus stroked Esmenet’s cheek, saw past her flushed skin, beyond her beating heart, following the telltale markers all the way to her womb.
Our blood, Father … In a world of maladroit and bovine souls, nothing could be more precious.
The House of Anasûrimbor.
The Dûnyain not only saw deep, they saw far. Even if the Holy War survived Caraskand, even if Shimeh was reconquered, the wars were only beginning … Achamian had taught him that much.
And in the end, only sons could conquer death.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Dunyain Weakness
« on: March 27, 2015, 08:36:50 pm »
It's cool seeing Dunyain freak out like a human being when their greatest tool turns out to be unreliable. Even if it is just a half-dunyain.

Of course half-dunyain vary a lot. Serwa so far seems more "human" than Kayutas, for example.
I think it's all a matter of who's got the most training...None of them got the full Dunyain training like Maithanet (or at least as much as a half-dunyain can take)...
Kellhus definitely spent time with Kayutas, shaping him, so he's a bit like Maitha...
Serwa went to the Swayali when she was very young so all she's got is her native inherited abilities with very little training and this gives her some measure of humanity...
Well it's obvious the Dunyain have weaknesses, they are still humans.

From the start Khellus has been proven wrong and made mistakes. Do you remember Leweth the trapper with his dogs ? How Khellus described him as lost in his superstitions, seeing the mystic everywhere ? How pathetic the guy seemed....

Quote
For Leweth, Kellhus knew, the world was fraught with gods, ghosts, even demons. It was steeped in their conspiracies, crowded with omens and portents of their capricious humours. Like a second horizon, their designs encompassed the struggles of men—shrouded, cruel, and in the end, always fatal.

And now after Khellus has travelled the world and lived outside the Dunyain's refuge, he has accepted a lot of what he thought was myths and superstitions, he's become much like what he despised in the 1st world born he met. Let's face it if there is one glaring weakness in Khellus and probably the Dunyain as a whole, it is arrogance... Being smarter doesn't mean being wiser or more knowledgeable.

One thing that surprises me is how the Dunyain are described as a sect seeking enlightment, and exiling themselves willingly from the world. But then there's the whole training about face reading... For me that's a tool for manipulation and control, I can't accept that's it's needed for suppressing your own emotions. So the Dunyain may have exiled themselves but they are definitely not above world matters.



I dont think the Dunyain are arrogant...The fact that Kellhus always seems to be in control may give the illusion of arrogance, but i believe we've established that the Dunyain arent big on humanity...He's simply in control. When he realizes he's made a mistake, he adjusts...
Quote
Grunting, the barbarian redoubled his fury. Kellhus parted a hammering rain of blows, feigning desperation. He reached out and clamped Cnaiür’s right wrist, yanked him forward. Somehow, impossibly, Cnaiür managed to bring his free hand up, seemingly through Kellhus’s sword arm. He pound his palm into Kellhus’s face.
Kellhus fell backward, kicking Cnaiür twice in the ribs. He rolled into a handstand, effortlessly vaulted back into stance.
He tasted his own blood. How?
The Scylvendi stumbled, clutching his side.
He’d misjudged the man’s reflexes, Kellhus realized, as he had so many other things.
The fact that he discounted everything Leweth said is just as a result of his training...his foundation is reason or the Logos...there aint no sorcery and gods in the Logos, so he had no reason to believe Leweth (who was so childish in his eyes)...as soon as he discovered sorcery was real, he began planning ways to learn it...arrogance implies pride and the ability to feel shame and i definitely wouldnt call kellhus proud...
Quote
"The whisper warns you!" Inrilatas laughed, his eyes bright, not for the twin flames they reflected, but something more incendiary still: apprehension. "You do not like sharing... Such a peevish, devious little soul! Come closer, little brother."
He sees me!
"You cannot let him fool you!" the boy cried, trying to goad a pride that did not exist.

The most allowance i'll give is that since Kellhus is still not the Logos incarnate, he'll still have traces of these feelings, but only traces. If the Dunyain possess any weakness, its one that all humans share...
Quote
It was all the young Prince-Imperial could do to simply stand and breathe. All his crimes, he had committed in the shadow of assumption. Were his Uncle to suspect him capable—of murdering Samarmas, Sharacinth—he would have quickly seen his guilt, such were his gifts. But for all their strength, the Dûnyain remained as blind to ignorance as the world-born—and as vulnerable.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Dunyain Weakness
« on: March 18, 2015, 12:51:03 am »
I disagree...for them to successfully stop 'feeling', they must be able to distinguish feelings they see on each other's faces...a bit like you cant write anything meaningful without knowing how to read...Kellhus is fallible definitely...but i'd say his fallibility 'reduced' as he got older and learned more stuff...i believe his TTT took into account the Gods and even the necessary sranc-eating...Did he get deceived by Yatwer? I doubt it...even if Kellhus saw every sign of sincerity on his face, there's no way Sorweel could have turned so quickly and so completely...He anticipated the Gods' interference and thus he would be on the lookout for any weird stuff among the Believer-Kings...

8
The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kelmomas' voice
« on: March 18, 2015, 12:18:08 am »
Your arguments make sense...but is it not probable that Kel is just bat-shit crazy? I paid attention to the inner voice and if that voice was Kellhus entirely, then certain things make no sense...like Kel killing Sharacinth when Kellhus (i think) wants stability in the Empire or at least has every reason to sabotage Yatwer...some of the voice's rants about killing some noble that annoyed it...the way the voice tried to hide inexpertly when Kel faced Inrilathas...is it not possible that, in the instant of the spiitting of their personalities at infancy, Sarmi's "dunyainness" was transferred to Kelmomas, making him smarter at an early age than the rest of Kellhus's progeny but also insane since in a way he has 2 consciousnesses within him? I dont know if this has been discussed here before...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus a student of the Aporos?
« on: March 17, 2015, 11:51:15 pm »
Right...the cishaurim somehow skipped my mind...anyone remember when Soma said he couldnt see Mimara properly when she still gripped the Chorae?...she was 'shadowy' or something...perhaps, u guys are right and Mimara altered the chorae or maybe made contact with the Outside in some way...this makes her potential even greater...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: March 15, 2015, 08:32:52 pm »
By human standards, kellhus is a monster...that said, i believe he wants to save the world...i think he genuinely believes the God works through him...what he'll do after saving the world is anybody's guess...though most likely, he'll cement his rule over Earwa ....but that depends on the state of his army when he's done...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus a student of the Aporos?
« on: March 15, 2015, 08:27:00 pm »
Let's not forget Mimara's revelation that the Chorae are actually Tears of God...she can see the 'goodness' or 'rightness' of Chorae...that said, is it not possible that the guys that made the chorae were priests/prophets of some kind? How old are the chorae, anyway? what links the God to the Chorae? Sorcery is imperfect reality...no way, sorcerers (gnostic or quya) could have made the Chorae by uttering a few cants or whatever...the mark would be evident and i dont think it would be such an effective anti-mage device as it is...perhaps chorae are the result of a certain combination of events like topoi...those who engage in aporos simply take advantage of existing conditions...

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Mimara
« on: March 15, 2015, 08:11:29 pm »
I think Mimara holds the key somehow to the No-God's destruction. Kellhus's goal (it seems) is to destroy the Consult and prevent the No-God's awakening, but he may fail in that...meaning the No-God may rise after all...if this happens, Mimara's Judging eye (plus that experience she had with the Chorae) will be crucial in confronting Mog...which would explain why the Consult is interested in her and whatever prophecy foretold her involvement...

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General Earwa / What if the No-God's a dolt?
« on: March 07, 2015, 11:43:04 pm »
Why does the No-God ask the same questions?: WHAT DO YOU SEE? WHAT AM I? I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE...Perhaps the No-God is just some construct of the Consult...an embodiment of evil that is ignorant of its origins...we know the No-God isn't a construct of regular sorcery since his Carapace has 11 Chorae in it...so whatever he is, he does nothing but ask the same idiot cryptic questions...
""
Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth …
WHAT DO YOU SEE?
The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.
TELL ME …
Whole worlds wailed in terror.
The Warrior-Prophet awoke, his skin tingling against a dead woman’s cheek …
""

Perhaps, he's a renegade piece of the God that the Consult just harnessed to their purposes (would explain his ignorance). Or is he just really big Ciphrang from the Outside that suffered amnesia during transit?

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Introduce Yourself / Hello, everybody...Truth shines...
« on: March 07, 2015, 11:02:42 pm »
I am absolutely THRILLED to be here. Couldn't find a group/forum on Facebook to discuss "the shit in the room" apart from a small community. Someone recommended this forum and here i am  ;D. May the Light from the halo around the Ass of the Holy Aspect-Emperor shine on us all...ahem, are the names 'Uncle Holy' and 'Pragma' taken? Wish I could change my username...

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