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Messages - Seökti

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1
General Earwa / Re: Cishaurim
« on: July 26, 2015, 02:07:36 pm »
The question for me then becomes one of methodology: how do the Cishaurim train themselves to do this?

2
General Earwa / Re: Cishaurim
« on: July 26, 2015, 02:06:35 pm »
My interest in the subject was piqued by what Bakker had said in an interview on Pat's Fantasy Hotlist:
http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html

"Unlike the Gnosis or Anagnosis, Psukhe seems to have come from humans directly(instead of Nonmen). Did the nonmen ever have anything to do with Psukhe? Did humans prior to Fane have anything to do with Psukhe?

Prior to Fane, the Psukhe as an arcane art was unknown, though there are legendary hints and mythic innuendos of certain sightless individuals harnessing inexplicable powers in moments of extraordinary anguish.

Everything comes down to meaning in Eärwa. Where sorcery is representational, utilizing either the logical form (as with the Gnosis) or the material content (as with the Anagogis) of meaning to leverage transformations of reality, the Psukhe utilizes the impetus. Practitioners of the Psukhe blind themselves to see through the what and grasp the how, the pure performative kernel of meaning–the music, the passion, or as the Cishaurim call it, the ‘Water.’ As a contemporary philosopher might say, the Psukhe is noncognitive, it has no truck with warring versions of reality, which is why it possesses no Mark and remains invisible to the Few.

This is why the Psukhe never occurred to any of the other more ancient arcane traditions. As the old saying goes, the man with a hammer thinks every problem is a nail. For the bulk of Eärwa’s history, it’s very possibility remained invisible."

For me the suggestion is that the Cishaurim aren't even really sorcerers in the proper sense, instead they come off as something more like a topos.  They train themselves to become fissures in reality allowing the outside to literally spill in.  If sorcery describes what the world is, the psukhe describes why the world is.  This also explains why it turns on emotion as opposed to abstraction, it harnesses the impetus as Bakker says - the reasons why, the intensity of that impulse translating into greater or lesser 'channeling' of the outside.  It also would be markless, as it does not transform or interpret reality but instead offers an alternative reality altogether.  It brings an internal world to a screeching out of body present.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: July 10, 2015, 12:13:20 pm »
. . .
The Consult: Destroy the world, destroy meaning.
The Mandate: Save the world and save meaning.

Therefore, how do we fit in Kellhus.  I feel like his intentions couldn't be the same as either, that is too obvious and formulaic.  So, that leaves us with: destroy the world and save meaning, or save the world, destroy meaning.  I am leaning toward the latter, which means he would actually save the Consult from damnation.

For me Kellhus represents how the absence of meaning can utilize meaning to save the world.

4
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: June 17, 2015, 03:30:49 am »
I wanted to flesh out an earlier theory regarding the purpose of the Dunyain as fulfillment of the Celmomian prophecy.

At some point near or after the conclusion of the first apocalypse Seswatha must have realized that sorcery alone would not be enough to take on the Consult.  Instead, perhaps Seswatha believed they needed a tekne not of the body alone (like the Inchoroi) but of the mind (the Dunyain).  In this manner he sought to create a being capable of intervening during the second apocalypse by virtue of his abilities being unaccountable or unforeseeable by the Consult the same way the tekne was unforeseen by the Nonmen.

The Dunyain as a strategic revisioning of the tekne in order to account for the tekne during the second apocalypse.

Meaning the Second Apocalypse might come down to Dunyain tekne vs. Inchoroi tekne.

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak - Mark 14:38

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: June 17, 2015, 02:58:14 am »
Quote
This is good, except that this implies that the Dunyain knew of the prophesy from the start, or at least very early on, and I thought that Celmomas didn't die until after the Dunyain too up refuge in Ishual.

I don't remember that being made explicit either way, so I am making that assumption.  The opening of TDTCB has a child crying alone (after killing the man set to guarding him) in the ruins of what might be Ishual.  The Dunyain happen upon this child.  I drew from this the assumption that Celmomas had therefore already died (why else would the child, likely of the Anasaurimbor line, be left with one person to watch him in a ruin?).  Ishual was supposed to be Celmomas' refuge - thus I am unsure as to why it would be 'abandoned' before his death.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: Kellhus: good or evil?
« on: June 01, 2015, 09:41:54 am »
this is cool! -- are you saying that the Dunyain tried to fulfill the prophecy with Moenghus but got it wrong?  kind of like what happens in Dune with the Kwizathaderach (sp?)

I'm thinking that the Dunyain did not fail with Moenghus, but that Moenghus was necessary to set the stage for Kellhus to even be possible (think of Maithanet, of Moenghus' creation of the very Holy War which saw Kellhus made Aspect-Emperor).  The same is probably the case for their lie about the existence of sorcery.  It makes sense that they would lie to one another in order to condition Kellhus.  I'm suggesting that the Dunyain were and potentially always have been attempting to fulfill the Celmomian Prophecy and thereby create a (singular) soul (Kellhus) capable of transcending the circle of causation (meaning that he would be one who is determined by what is to come as opposed to what came before), and thereby save mankind.

7
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: February 28, 2015, 02:19:10 am »
Any crimes committed by Kellhus after the events in TTT we can assume are done with the greater plan of ridding the world of the Consult and Inchoroi in mind.  Not all actions are equal in Earwa.  We need Mimara to see Kellhus with the Judging Eye to truly know if Kellhus is objectively holy or insane (being one might mean being the other, too, that won't be so easy to find out).

8
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: February 23, 2015, 07:45:12 am »
Look at kellhus' rapist/pedophile rationalization for raping Leweth's soul.  Leweth was like a child and could be controlled, so kellhus exalted in controlling for controls sake, Leweth was asking for it, so to speak, Leweth "liked" it in the end, kellhus was smarter/more mature/stronger/better so he was entitled to Leweth's soul because of those things, Leweth's consent was irrelevant to kellhus slaying his unquenchable desires.  And of course kellhus eventually hunts down Leweth's soul and rapes it the way the bard hunted down the bastard  and raped him a few pages earlier.

But kellhus rationalized away all his crimes, his motivations, his emotions, dismissing them by claiming he was above them.

Honestly I can't think of anything truly awful that Kellhus has done.  About the worst of it are some lies.  I'd like some concrete examples of ways Kellhus may have damned himself if that is what people are suggesting.

The assumed lack of 'consent' itself is suspect until it can prove consent wasn't given by Leweth for all of it. 

'He makes us love!'


The world is simply more visible to Kellhus - he was conditioned for it in ways beyond his own comprehension.

9
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: February 15, 2015, 11:11:55 pm »
The Dunyain today could be as ignorant of the Darkness that came before them, even as they were the ones that created it.

This is why I believe the Celmomian Prophecy could be a Dunyain plot, the beginning of an attempt to reach beyond the Empirical Priority Principle and produce a "self-moving soul".  This explains how the Dunyain came to find Ishual - the hidden fastness of the Anasurimbor line - as either Celmomas or Seswatha or both would have been involved.

The proximity of the establishing of the Dunyain and the first apocalypse also makes it unlikely that they simply didn't know about sorcery, and their founding principles suggest that they would only omit the existence of sorcery intentionally, an omission which on the surface seems to contradict their mission of grasping all that comes before.

10
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: February 15, 2015, 12:16:57 pm »
@Simas:

All of the possibilities you lay out for explaining the Dunyain omission of the reality of Sorcery suggests a sort of carelessness I'm unlikely to attribute to the Dunyain.  When Kellhus discovers Sorcery he begins to question everything the Dunyain have taught him, because the Dunyain teach a way of thinking which endlessly revises metaphysical and core truths such as the reality of sin and damnation, the simple existence of hell and 'the Mark', the hidden nature of the onta.

It seems far more likely that the Dunyain were created to produce a single event that would change the course of the world: the creation of the event that is Anasurimbor Kellhus, "a soul utterly transparent to the Logos", a soul which lay outside of the cycle of causation like the Logos which could account for all that preceeded. 

Like Kellhus is also a White-Luck Warrior.

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The White-Luck Warrior / Re: The Harbinger
« on: February 09, 2015, 01:21:12 am »
That's fine. I see no reason to believe any of those things though, and there are simpler explanations requiring less faith.

Okay so how would you explain the Kelmomian prophecies now that Kellhus leads the great ordeal?

12
General Earwa / Re: Akka's "Power Level"?
« on: February 09, 2015, 01:15:59 am »
Could just be that as a Mandate schoolman gets older their dreams change.  Achaymian is really old after all.

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General Earwa / Re: Akka's "Power Level"?
« on: February 07, 2015, 01:34:11 pm »
I don't think Esmenet is a direct descendant or a reincarnation (which isn't possible for Earwa as the soul is clearly eternal, i.e. damnation) of the High Kings wife, but Seswatha and Akka have too much in common to ignore.  Perhaps the whelming and the Mandate itself were created by Seswatha to create people capable of playing his role to Anaxophus - whatever that was exactly.  And this assumption leads me to Akka being the modern Seswatha.

14
General Earwa / Re: Fane Was Right, and he is the prophet
« on: February 07, 2015, 01:26:41 pm »
He claims Kellhus is insane, 'broken by the wild' I think, which is a pretty substantial accusation.  We never figure out if its true, and even Kellhus wonders.

15
General Earwa / Re: The Dûnyain
« on: February 07, 2015, 01:20:56 pm »
In suggesting that the Dunyain were conceived of to create someone capable of fulfilling the Kelmomian Prophecies I'm attempting to pull together some loose ends and several narrative threads. 

First, why did the Dunyain lie to their antecedants about sorcery when they surely knew it was around and not a lie? It goes well against their teachings to hide this knowledge, although it is unlikely the forgetting of sorcery by the Dunyain was not deliberate.  Perhaps it was necessary that the Harbinger discover sorcery for himself. 

Second, why did Moenghus leave or get exiled or whatever? Certainly we know he sends for not just another Dunyain but his son is specific, an Anasurimbor, in order to help him solve the riddle of the skin spies, but Kellhus knows truths Moenghus has yet to accept: the reality of damnation and the true goals of the Consult. 

Third, the glossary from TTT offers a definition of Dunyain that suggests their goal is the creation of a 'self-moving soul' through generations of training and breeding.  This already suggests they already had a reason to want to create this person, so it is possible that their desire to create this person would not have been coincidental to the Kelmomian prophecies but driven by it.  The Kelmomian Prophecies as the Dunyain attempt to move beyond 'the circle of before and after'. 

Finally, their fastness being in Ishual suggests a knowledge of the High Kings secrets, secrets which likely only a handful of souls knew.  Perhaps Ishual was built for the Dunyain, or the Dunyain were concieved of by Seswatha or someone close to him in hopes of one day creating someone capable of ridding the world of the consult.  Perhaps the prophecy itself was based on this plan to create the Dunyain.

Just an idea anyway.

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