The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Madness on May 23, 2017, 06:22:33 pm

Title: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Madness on May 23, 2017, 06:22:33 pm
Lol. It's come up in Quorum twice now but I felt like it deserved a thread. Here we can collect all the "loose ends" Bakker's left across the series so far, up to and including TGO.

EDIT: Gave the thread a new name :).
Title: Re: The Unresolved Mysteries of Detective pail
Post by: Hiro on May 23, 2017, 06:56:27 pm
Perhaps something I cannot pinpoint as of yet in the text, but how far did Kellhus prepare for his battle with Golgotterath...did he say scout around there, translocating and all in the years before the Ordeal marched...?
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Madness on May 25, 2017, 01:16:15 am
Just for cataloguing for fun and for pail:

- What did Inrau find in Maithanet's apartments?
- Crazy or not: What is Cnaiur talking about in a section of TWP when he "reassembles her face from broken shards?" (badly paraphrasing)
- What's up with Simas the Sorcerous Skin-Spy?

I will keep collecting as pail, Hiro, and others reread.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: TaoHorror on May 25, 2017, 02:26:53 am
What the hell is going on in the rest of Earwa? This is only one continent or even just part of a continent. Was it mentioned anywhere this is the only land mass on the planet? Me thinks it would be wild to have a completely different story line for "everywhere else", so see isolated groups of life evolving separably, could really show off some of Bakker's muscle. The Non-men seemed pretty powerful, intelligent and advanced - no explorers among them? Or did they all think the world was flat ...
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Madness on May 25, 2017, 02:34:50 am
Bakker always played remarkably coy about Eanna over the years but that still doesn't answer your continent question really.

There are a couple interviews where he's mentioned that "the map runs out" is kind of his logic behind it though.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Madness on May 25, 2017, 07:02:01 pm
"Forgotten mystery" ;) :

Quote from: pail
The real reason for Moenghus leaving Ishual due to the apparent contradiction between Kellhus seeming to not know about Sranc during the Leweth episode (though there was a little wiggle room to argue that he did in fact know of them), but citing Sranc as the reason Moenghus left.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Hiro on May 26, 2017, 12:24:48 pm
Where is the Heron Spear...?
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Wilshire on May 26, 2017, 11:04:35 pm
What the hell is going on in the rest of Earwa? This is only one continent or even just part of a continent. Was it mentioned anywhere this is the only land mass on the planet? Me thinks it would be wild to have a completely different story line for "everywhere else", so see isolated groups of life evolving separably, could really show off some of Bakker's muscle. The Non-men seemed pretty powerful, intelligent and advanced - no explorers among them? Or did they all think the world was flat ...

Think ancient times. There is no 'the rest of the map' as far as we are concerned.

At some point this is a story that begins somewhere in the middle. The homeworld of the inchoroi, the rest of Earworld, they just aren't part of it.

That said, those stories are ripe for fanfic.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: themerchant on May 27, 2017, 03:21:18 pm
What the hell is going on in the rest of Earwa? This is only one continent or even just part of a continent. Was it mentioned anywhere this is the only land mass on the planet? Me thinks it would be wild to have a completely different story line for "everywhere else", so see isolated groups of life evolving separably, could really show off some of Bakker's muscle. The Non-men seemed pretty powerful, intelligent and advanced - no explorers among them? Or did they all think the world was flat ...

Bakker was asked about this, my recollection of the answer is. Nonmen don't seek to dominate territory like humans would. It's about power over other non-men so their species wasn't interested in traveling as opposed to dominating each other.

I'm sure someone else will remember better than me.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Werthead on May 28, 2017, 10:44:47 pm
Quote
What the hell is going on in the rest of Earwa? This is only one continent or even just part of a continent. Was it mentioned anywhere this is the only land mass on the planet? Me thinks it would be wild to have a completely different story line for "everywhere else", so see isolated groups of life evolving separably, could really show off some of Bakker's muscle. The Non-men seemed pretty powerful, intelligent and advanced - no explorers among them? Or did they all think the world was flat ...

The Nonmen were largely not interested in ocean travel, apart from those of Illisseru:

(from TUC glossary, absolutely no spoilers for the plot but some new backstory information)

(click to show/hide)

More to the point, the Nonmen birth rate was very low and they expanded across Earwa very slowly, establishing only nine large Mansions (populations in the tens to low hundreds of thousands) over 10,000-20,000 odd years. Without population pressures and with apparently no other civilisation elsewhere on the planet, they was no economic or population pressure to expand or explore the rest of the planet at that time.

For the present era, it sounds like the terrain on the far side of the Kayarsus is not particularly pleasant and there is no real impetus to explore eastwards across the rest of the continent. If there was a powerful kingdom or empire out there, you'd assume it would have made itself known. As such, civilisation in Eanna is probably far less sophisticated than in Earwa. There's been no reliable intercontinental contact for 2,000+ years, since the Xiuhianni attacked Jekk over the South Kayarsus, which might have been the last gasp of a dying or less sophisticated race.

Zeum apparently has superior naval technology to the Three Seas and may have explored further into the ocean, but if they've found anything, they've not told anyone else. They may have explored the coast of Kutnarmu as well, but I think we can assume that northern Kutnarmu is Africa 2.0 and just uninhabitable desert apart from Cingulat.

More simply, Earwa is Europe somewhere between Ancient Greece and the Crusades, during which time exploring for exploration's sake really didn't happen, and it took 2,000 years from making the first reliable maps of the North Africa coast and finally founding the far southern tip.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Madness on May 28, 2017, 11:25:59 pm
More simply, Earwa is Europe somewhere between Ancient Greece and the Crusades, during which time exploring for exploration's sake really didn't happen, and it took 2,000 years from making the first reliable maps of the North Africa coast and finally founding the far southern tip.

"Earwa is actually some four or five times the size of Europe. I put that allusory analogue of the Norwegian coast along the top as a sneaky way to guage the land masses involved." (http://forum.three-seas.com/posts/4852)

Damn, that's probably one of the first posts referring to The Second Apocalypse.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Werthead on May 29, 2017, 02:59:34 pm
Yeah, that's what Som used as the basis for the scale on his maps, right? Earwa is pretty massive. Although I remain intrigued by the shape similarities between the Sea of Cerish and the Black Sea, as well as the proto-Scandinavia shape of the north-west coast.

Always worth a look is Scott's original map of Earwa (or "Rior") from back in the day (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Cpe30DzcOkw/VI3-IsqTxMI/AAAAAAAAKv4/URrKxbQYJfY/s1600/Original%2BMap%2BPrince%2Bof%2BNothing.png).
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Hopper8r on May 29, 2017, 03:10:08 pm
Interesting (map of Rior).  I see 'scalding' rings....but no Golgotterath?
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Madness on May 29, 2017, 03:13:09 pm
I'd have to check, Wert.

I do know Som made a thread regarding the process (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1439.0) contemporary of when he was making it. I feel like I recall that he used the one from www.rscottbakker.com, which Scott mentioned somewhere is a meticulous pixel by pixel creation. Lol.

That Rior is one cool map.

Lol, I don't think I ever noticed that that map is labelled "Second Age of the Tusk," not year of.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: Werthead on May 29, 2017, 07:42:33 pm
Interesting (map of Rior).  I see 'scalding' rings....but no Golgotterath?

I think Golgotterath was always going to be in that ballpark, but maybe this map was designed not to have it on there as a means of mystery.

If this map was drawn up in the 1980s, I wonder if Scott was following traditional "grid map" conventions from back then (where each side of a square is 100 miles)?

Also, I don't think those are scalding rings. If they were nuke craters, they'd be from explosions so massive they'd probably have sterilised the planet from fallout. I suspect more ancient impact craters.
Title: Re: Detective pail's Unresolved Meticulous Mysteries
Post by: themerchant on May 29, 2017, 08:49:30 pm
Maybe that was his gaming Map for when he played D&D and then as the story of the 2nd apocalypse grew in his mind he adapted it.

I love the maps and the details though :)
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Madness on May 30, 2017, 12:26:46 am
Likely that it was one of their D&D maps, merchant.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hopper8r on May 30, 2017, 11:11:40 am
The detail and imagination behind it is impressive.  I cannot imagine the wild flux of emotions Scott must be feeling bringing his story to light after so many years.

THE COFFERS!
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: H on May 30, 2017, 01:40:33 pm
Other things we don't really know about:

How did the Dunyain find Ishuäl?  (Was it really an accident?)

What the hell is the Worldhorn, really?  (And what did it actually do?)

Where did the Heron Spear go to?  (Was it even real in the first place?)

What are Wracu even, really?  Why do Chorae affect them?  Where are the rest of them (post-TFA)?  Which one was at the bottom of Cil-Aujas?

What is the Nail of Heaven actually?

Who was it that caused the "Burning of the White Ships" during TFA?  Was it skin spies?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Walter on May 30, 2017, 05:00:11 pm
What's up with anarcane ground?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: TaoHorror on May 30, 2017, 06:27:36 pm
Other things we don't really know about:

How did the Dunyain find Ishuäl?  (Was it really an accident?)  ... good point, it did seem they were just kinda walking down the road looking for a dungeon ( since it was brought up, D&D reference )

What the hell is the Worldhorn, really?  (And what did it actually do?) Since everything on the internet is true, according to PON Wiki: Worldhorn is a ceremonial sorcerous artifact belonging to the Aörsic House of the Anasûrimbor and lost in the destruction of Shiarau in 2136. Reference: Encyclopedic Glossary, ‘Worldhorn’ ... I'm thinking it was nabbed by the Shriekers when the Inchoroi ransacked Ishual

Where did the Heron Spear go to?  (Was it even real in the first place?) Seemed like it got pass around and then "lost" ... either someone hid it and died leaving no evidence or word behind where they put it or it's broke, hanging in a non-mansion as a wall hanging. I don't see it making a return, or in Bakker fashion, there will be a "quest" to find it only to discover it's now useless ( even better, it still works, but the new and improved Mog can defend against it )

What are Wracu even, really?  Why do Chorae affect them?  Where are the rest of them (post-TFA)?  Which one was at the bottom of Cil-Aujas?  ... From my personal deduction: they were "dragons" manufactured to use sorcery, so they have the stain. Some killed off, some flew away hiding, some appear to be un-dead ...

What is the Nail of Heaven actually? ... I simply thought it was the brightest start in the heavens ( like the North star ),
 but it does get mentioned/referenced a lot and apparently the Ark "came" from it with it getting bright, etc ... could be the Inchoroi created a worm hole inside a star to travel from system to system ... or a black hole that obscured a star.

Who was it that caused the "Burning of the White Ships" during TFA?  Was it skin spies? ... I don't know
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on May 30, 2017, 10:12:02 pm
What's up with anarcane ground?

http://princeofnothing.wikia.com/wiki

Which doesn't make sense as Kellhus had no problem. But, it Kellhus we're talking about.....
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: locke on May 30, 2017, 11:00:32 pm
Off the top of my head :

What's up with HITB?

How did cnaiur get through kellhus defenses when they first dueled?

Who did kellhus converse with when on the circumfix (and later in TGO)?

Why does serwe see halos on the skin spy?

How is serwe the cipher for ____?

Why did moenghus really leave Ishual?

Did moenghus tutor conphas?

How much of cnaiurs role did moenghus condition deliberately?

Did moenghus prevent cnaiur from attacking conphas after the battle of kiyuth?

Was kellhus supposed to join the holy war or avoid it? (He only joins because they run into serwe, he was going to kill cnaiur and head south before that)

What's up with the ensouled skin spy, is it a consult or moenghus artifact?

How come the synthese can find the skin spy with mimara but not moenghus imprisoned skin spies in kyudea?

Just what did mimara accomplish when she passed through the chorae (an event that presages the first appearance of the wight)?

Akka says the topos was supposed to negate the chorae with the wight and the seal, mimara used it anyway, successfully, was this use novel and unique to her or antique (but forgotten lost over the years) ? Why did the chorae continue to salt Akka and cleric in the topos?

When maithanet says his siblings were drowned is that literally mean they were killed or figuratively indicate some sort of baptism like ceremony?

Was maithanet killed or a body double?

Was theliopas stutter a result of inrilatus' abuses?

Who was theliopa named after?

Was kellhus path to leweth conditioned (aka, why no sranc)?

Why did mekeritrig let kellhus go?

What is the crab handed boys name?

What is going on with Kelmomas and his voice?

What kind of singing did serwa do, mundane or sorcerous?

Who is emilidis, is he still alive? Any more artifacts?

Is the inverse fire true or false?

Is Meppa alive?

Do cishaurim salt when choraed?

Are skin spies repurposed sex dolls?

Was wutteat the last wracu?

Are wracu machines, organic machines, or organic entirely?

What's up with wreoleth and the survivors of said?

Really? Nukes? Are there more? deliberately triggered or a foiled plot?

Was the person in the line going to the golden room nau cayuti?

Was nau cayuti the no god?

What is the no god?

Did the heron spear successfully kill the no god as in legend or misfire (as in Akkas last dream in TTT)?

Where is the heron spear?

What was the crab handed boy doing when he caused squirrel and the chorae to interact and "make light"?

Is the zero God a thing or a red herring?

Can you make qirri from sranc?

Can you make sranc from humans?

Who is the traveler from the TJE prologue?

Is kellhus guiding Akkas changed dreams?

Is Akka right about the judging eye? Will mimara lose it when she gives birth.





Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: codebread on May 31, 2017, 12:26:44 am
Doing a re-read of TTT right now and the three questions I have off the top of my head so far (that haven't been mentioned yet):

1) What's up with the halos on Kellhus' hands? Other characters have seen them, so it's not something Kellhus is imagining

2) What did Kellhus do when he hypnotized Akka in TTT and "spoke with Seswatha"? How did he know he could do it? It mentions that Kellhus "stared at a point between [akka and Kellhus]" before realizing it was Seswatha that was stopping Akka from yielding the Gnosis.

3) What's up with this "Head on a pole" thing from TGO?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: TaoHorror on May 31, 2017, 01:23:54 am
Doing a re-read of TTT right now and the three questions I have off the top of my head so far (that haven't been mentioned yet):

3) What's up with this "Head on a pole" thing from TGO? ... man, I had no clue what the deal was with all that, and I reread it like 5 times ... appears from chatter elsewhere in this forum he was "visiting" hell ... even knowing that, I fail to make sense of the text
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: TaoHorror on May 31, 2017, 01:30:56 am
Looks like you double posted, Locke - may want to delete one of them to make room.

Off the top of my head :

What's up with HITB?  … Who?

How did cnaiur get through kellhus defenses when they first dueled?  … Kell hasn’t fully “formed” or a manipulation to reduce his “threat” to Cnaiur.

Why did moenghus really leave Ishual?  … to get some descent Chinese takeout

Did moenghus tutor conphas? …  yes, sorta

How much of cnaiurs role did moenghus condition deliberately?  … Just about all of it

Did moenghus prevent cnaiur from attacking conphas after the battle of kiyuth?  … No

Was kellhus supposed to join the holy war or avoid it? (He only joins because they run into serwe, he was going to kill cnaiur and head south before that)  … he was in the midst of recalculating “sorcery” into his path to kill his father, thought bringing an army would do the trick

How come the synthese can find the skin spy with mimara but not moenghus imprisoned skin spies in kyudea?  … Who says he couldn’t? Maybe he did visit them from time to time, leveraging their imprisonment to leech more information.

Was maithanet killed or a body double?  … He was killed

Was theliopas stutter a result of inrilatus' abuses?  … Yes, but could have been done on purpose as her way of announcing the violation, constant reminder to her parents

Was kellhus path to leweth conditioned (aka, why no sranc)?  … No, while Scranc are numerous, they don’t cover every square inch of the North

Why did mekeritrig let kellhus go?  … Good question given all we now know – at the time, I simply bought the explanation that he hauled ass – but given the mad power of that dude, seems like he could have caught up with him

What is going on with Kelmomas and his voice?  … Insanity

Is the inverse fire true or false?  … Trick question? It’s both and neither.

Is Meppa alive?  … Yes

Are wracu machines, organic machines, or organic entirely?  … organic machines ( the smell of kerosene, but they are sentient – maybe AI, but the Inchoroi are big on constructing life, so organic “machinery” like the Shranc and Bashrag

Really? Nukes? Are there more? deliberately triggered or a foiled plot?  … unclear it was a “nuke” … if it were, Nagliash would be uninhabitable for 1,000+ years … appears it was a “bomb”, but it’s complete nature is unclear given the area of effects ( that and radiation is not catchy, so either the afflicted HAD to be abandoned as contagious which suggest not nuclear or they were abandoned for other reasons – seems culling the herd is in vogue with the story - that or a rouse by Kell to get the unaffected to be able to abandon their brothers so they can continue unencumbered)

Was nau cayuti the no god?  … No

What is the no god?  … either gone, baby, gone or being reconstructed Ha! I misread this as "Where" at first - will leave my original response, but the No God is a creation of the Inchoroi, a super weapon of sorts

Did the heron spear successfully kill the no god as in legend or misfire (as in Akkas last dream in TTT)?  … It did, but unclear if more was done in concert with other attacks to achieve ultimate defeat

Is the zero God a thing or a red herring?  … it did exist, unsure if it’s making a return

Can you make qirri from sranc?  … No, but it makes one hell of a fondue

Can you make sranc from humans?  … No, but could come up with sorta the same thing with a human face – but it would be at least slightly different if not wholesale something way different

Who is the traveler from the TJE prologue?  … The White Luck Warrior

Is kellhus guiding Akkas changed dreams?  … No

Is Akka right about the judging eye? Will mimara lose it when she gives birth.  … would be true, but she won’t be giving birth

[EDIT Madness: Fixed locke's double post.]
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: locke on May 31, 2017, 04:33:58 am
Tapatalk double posts every time I try to post!
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Madness on May 31, 2017, 04:46:07 am
I'll look into that.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on May 31, 2017, 08:54:05 am
Doing a re-read of TTT right now and the three questions I have off the top of my head so far (that haven't been mentioned yet):

1) What's up with the halos on Kellhus' hands? Other characters have seen them, so it's not something Kellhus is imagining

2) What did Kellhus do when he hypnotized Akka in TTT and "spoke with Seswatha"? How did he know he could do it? It mentions that Kellhus "stared at a point between [akka and Kellhus]" before realizing it was Seswatha that was stopping Akka from yielding the Gnosis.

3) What's up with this "Head on a pole" thing from TGO?

Regarding 1, the halos start already being seen by other characters in TWP, starting with Serwë. At that time I thought, illusion from someone who is not quite 100% mentally coherent. Yet later on, the halos are seen or glimpsed by others as well. I dunno...
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: H on May 31, 2017, 10:09:40 am
Who was theliopa named after?

Bakker actually said she was named from some actual Latin name he heard and decided that was what he wanted to use.  It was in one of the more recent podcast interviews.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: H on May 31, 2017, 11:19:31 am
Why did mekeritrig let kellhus go?

This reminds me that we don't actually know how Seswatha got off the Wall of the Dead either.  Did Mek let him go?  Or did he escape the same sort of way Akka did from the SS?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Madness on May 31, 2017, 12:57:05 pm
Who was theliopa named after?

Bakker actually said she was named from some actual Latin name he heard and decided that was what he wanted to use.  It was in one of the more recent podcast interviews.

"Recent podcast" is not necessarily inaccurate? I mean, it was Grim Tidings podcast (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1721.msg28910#msg28910), which is the third most recent almost a year ago ;)?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: H on May 31, 2017, 01:00:30 pm
Who was theliopa named after?

Bakker actually said she was named from some actual Latin name he heard and decided that was what he wanted to use.  It was in one of the more recent podcast interviews.

"Recent podcast" is not necessarily inaccurate? I mean, it was Grim Tidings podcast (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1721.msg28910#msg28910), which is the third most recent almost a year ago ;)?

You got me, I have no idea what day or year it is any more.   :-\
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Monkhound on June 01, 2017, 06:22:23 am
Doing a re-read of TTT right now and the three questions I have off the top of my head so far (that haven't been mentioned yet):

1) What's up with the halos on Kellhus' hands? Other characters have seen them, so it's not something Kellhus is imagining

2) What did Kellhus do when he hypnotized Akka in TTT and "spoke with Seswatha"? How did he know he could do it? It mentions that Kellhus "stared at a point between [akka and Kellhus]" before realizing it was Seswatha that was stopping Akka from yielding the Gnosis.

3) What's up with this "Head on a pole" thing from TGO?

Regarding 1, the halos start already being seen by other characters in TWP, starting with Serwë. At that time I thought, illusion from someone who is not quite 100% mentally coherent. Yet later on, the halos are seen or glimpsed by others as well. I dunno...

That could alternatively mean that by the time of TAE everybody is "not quite mentally coherent"... which is plausible as well.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: codebread on June 02, 2017, 01:46:47 am
Doing a re-read of TTT right now and the three questions I have off the top of my head so far (that haven't been mentioned yet):

1) What's up with the halos on Kellhus' hands? Other characters have seen them, so it's not something Kellhus is imagining

2) What did Kellhus do when he hypnotized Akka in TTT and "spoke with Seswatha"? How did he know he could do it? It mentions that Kellhus "stared at a point between [akka and Kellhus]" before realizing it was Seswatha that was stopping Akka from yielding the Gnosis.

3) What's up with this "Head on a pole" thing from TGO?

Regarding 1, the halos start already being seen by other characters in TWP, starting with Serwë. At that time I thought, illusion from someone who is not quite 100% mentally coherent. Yet later on, the halos are seen or glimpsed by others as well. I dunno...

That could alternatively mean that by the time of TAE everybody is "not quite mentally coherent"... which is plausible as well.

Akka notices it in The Thousandfold Thought. He seems pretty sane at the time, but questions whether or not he's seeing things. I doubt that there are so many major characters imagining them.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Francis Buck on June 02, 2017, 05:11:40 am
Who was theliopa named after?

Bakker actually said she was named from some actual Latin name he heard and decided that was what he wanted to use.  It was in one of the more recent podcast interviews.

I've wondered for a while now if Bakker has in small ways drawn from, or was moderately influenced by, William Blake's mythologies. One entry into that mythos is The Book of Thel. This commentary from the wiki page has stuck in my head:

Quote
Thel – The word in Greek (θέλ) means “will” or “wish” or “desire.”[5] The name is often viewed as a reflection of the poem’s allegory of desire. Others have attempted to connect Thel's name with the word “female”.[5] Various interpretations of the character have been proposed, including the idea that she is an unborn soul who refuses to live as a mortal in the material world[6] or that Thel is an immature human virgin who shies away from the life of mature sexuality.[6] Another popular interpretation sees Thel as emblematic not only of the surface of female frailty, but of the feminine frailty of humankind in general.[7]

Obviously that's Greek (where there's a bunch of other "Thel-" or "Thal-" deities, mostly feminine), so whether he just found a similar sounding Latin name or if it means absolutely nothing at all, I have no clue. But it's interesting either way! (to me anway)
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 09, 2017, 06:42:25 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 09, 2017, 09:24:41 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 10, 2017, 06:31:35 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.

Really? I would like to see that argument. I looked back at that scene, and the text is quite clear that the traveler is new to the Skin Eaters. He speaks as 'we', and knows about the nickname, - Ironsoul -, Kellhus gave Kosoter during the Unification Wars. He says he's looking for the one who is called 'Ironsoul'. Sarl was there, or at least he says so to Akka, when Kellhus named Kosoter Ironsoul. That does not seem to be the same person.

The 'we' implies that the traveller is an agent from one institution or another. I guess the Empire. And I furthermore think now, as others have suggested as well, that it is indeed Akka's slave, Geraus. As we later learn that he has prepared Akka's meeting the Skin Eaters. Geraus could very well be an agent from the Empire, keeping a close eye to Akka.

Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 10, 2017, 09:47:37 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.

Really? I would like to see that argument. I looked back at that scene, and the text is quite clear that the traveler is new to the Skin Eaters. He speaks as 'we', and knows about the nickname, - Ironsoul -, Kellhus gave Kosoter during the Unification Wars. He says he's looking for the one who is called 'Ironsoul'. Sarl was there, or at least he says so to Akka, when Kellhus named Kosoter Ironsoul. That does not seem to be the same person.

The 'we' implies that the traveller is an agent from one institution or another. I guess the Empire. And I furthermore think now, as others have suggested as well, that it is indeed Akka's slave, Geraus. As we later learn that he has prepared Akka's meeting the Skin Eaters. Geraus could very well be an agent from the Empire, keeping a close eye to Akka.

Ill see if I find it it is very convincing and based off of euphimisms Sarl uses.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Francis Buck on June 15, 2017, 06:32:48 am
I love Geraus as a spy. That being said, I feel the identity of the Traveler is very wide open. What if it was Cleric? Or even an agent of the Consult...
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 22, 2017, 04:32:46 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.

Really? I would like to see that argument. I looked back at that scene, and the text is quite clear that the traveler is new to the Skin Eaters. He speaks as 'we', and knows about the nickname, - Ironsoul -, Kellhus gave Kosoter during the Unification Wars. He says he's looking for the one who is called 'Ironsoul'. Sarl was there, or at least he says so to Akka, when Kellhus named Kosoter Ironsoul. That does not seem to be the same person.

The 'we' implies that the traveller is an agent from one institution or another. I guess the Empire. And I furthermore think now, as others have suggested as well, that it is indeed Akka's slave, Geraus. As we later learn that he has prepared Akka's meeting the Skin Eaters. Geraus could very well be an agent from the Empire, keeping a close eye to Akka.

Ill see if I find it it is very convincing and based off of euphimisms Sarl uses.

In WLW Mimara ponders that Sarl has know Kosoter since the Unification Wars, according to Akka.

Regarding possible others, other than Geraus, it could indeed be Soma the Skin-spy. Cleric not, I think, I suspect he and Kosoter go back a while as well, and he seems less lucid than the traveler.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 22, 2017, 11:26:49 pm
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.

Really? I would like to see that argument. I looked back at that scene, and the text is quite clear that the traveler is new to the Skin Eaters. He speaks as 'we', and knows about the nickname, - Ironsoul -, Kellhus gave Kosoter during the Unification Wars. He says he's looking for the one who is called 'Ironsoul'. Sarl was there, or at least he says so to Akka, when Kellhus named Kosoter Ironsoul. That does not seem to be the same person.

The 'we' implies that the traveller is an agent from one institution or another. I guess the Empire. And I furthermore think now, as others have suggested as well, that it is indeed Akka's slave, Geraus. As we later learn that he has prepared Akka's meeting the Skin Eaters. Geraus could very well be an agent from the Empire, keeping a close eye to Akka.

Ill see if I find it it is very convincing and based off of euphimisms Sarl uses.

In WLW Mimara ponders that Sarl has know Kosoter since the Unification Wars, according to Akka.

Regarding possible others, other than Geraus, it could indeed be Soma the Skin-spy. Cleric not, I think, I suspect he and Kosoter go back a while as well, and he seems less lucid than the traveler.

I know there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, though if "summons Madness the link provider" you seen the evidence compiled for it being Sarl, its does make you think. What's to say Sarl is just lying to Akka about knowing the Captain all those years? Or even if he did, doesn't mean he isn't the traveller.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 23, 2017, 10:29:46 am
Who was that person who visited Kosoter in the TJE prologue...?

I have seen convincing argument from HP here somewhere that it was Sarl. By use of phrases he uses throughout.

Really? I would like to see that argument. I looked back at that scene, and the text is quite clear that the traveler is new to the Skin Eaters. He speaks as 'we', and knows about the nickname, - Ironsoul -, Kellhus gave Kosoter during the Unification Wars. He says he's looking for the one who is called 'Ironsoul'. Sarl was there, or at least he says so to Akka, when Kellhus named Kosoter Ironsoul. That does not seem to be the same person.

The 'we' implies that the traveller is an agent from one institution or another. I guess the Empire. And I furthermore think now, as others have suggested as well, that it is indeed Akka's slave, Geraus. As we later learn that he has prepared Akka's meeting the Skin Eaters. Geraus could very well be an agent from the Empire, keeping a close eye to Akka.

Ill see if I find it it is very convincing and based off of euphimisms Sarl uses.

In WLW Mimara ponders that Sarl has know Kosoter since the Unification Wars, according to Akka.

Regarding possible others, other than Geraus, it could indeed be Soma the Skin-spy. Cleric not, I think, I suspect he and Kosoter go back a while as well, and he seems less lucid than the traveler.

I know there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, though if "summons Madness the link provider" you seen the evidence compiled for it being Sarl, its does make you think. What's to say Sarl is just lying to Akka about knowing the Captain all those years? Or even if he did, doesn't mean he isn't the traveller.

Let me put it in another way, *why*, that is for what narrative purpose would Sarl be the traveller? Does he warrant a mysterious introduction in the opening of the TAE series?
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: themerchant on June 23, 2017, 12:43:52 pm
It just sounds like another "Imperial" the same as the folk that told them to hunt skinnies but keep near Marrow.

Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 23, 2017, 05:02:13 pm
Let me put it in another way, *why*, that is for what narrative purpose would Sarl be the traveller? Does he warrant a mysterious introduction in the opening of the TAE series?

Well for what narrative purpose would anyone else be? There is no narrative purpose to the traveller, other than to tell Captain that Kellhus has a mission for him. The traveller is not that important. And, I wish I could find the thread where the evidence points to Sarl.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Madness on June 23, 2017, 05:05:38 pm
prologue (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=420.0)
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 23, 2017, 06:55:11 pm
prologue (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=420.0)

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 23, 2017, 08:42:04 pm
prologue (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=420.0)

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: themerchant on June 23, 2017, 09:06:09 pm
Geraus makes sense isn't there a line in TJE where Geraus's wife is angry as hell at Akka cause he takes too long to come home? Might be a detour to grab the "boys" back from the "slog".

Went and checked it's just his general absence, when he heads into Marrow 4 times a year.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 23, 2017, 09:19:33 pm
prologue (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=420.0)

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.

I'd venture to say Sarl is Zaudunyaini. Regardless Hiro, I just found her theory intriguing, with some circumstantial evidence to back it up. More than anyone else has gave, imo. Really, who the traveller is has little to no bearing on the narrative. I think Geraus is another compelling case, tbh. Though, it's not one of the mysteries I'm really concerned with. I really like reading the theories and evidence to back them up, though. Cheers, mate!
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: Hiro on June 24, 2017, 09:41:31 am
prologue (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=420.0)

Thanks, Madness! I knew you wouldn't let me down.

Anyway, it was Alia that proposed that it was Sarl, and she makes a very compelling case

Well. I've read through that thread. Thanks for the link, Madness. But compelling case, even a very compelling case, how so?

I've reread the prologue, and come on, the speech and thought pattern that is revealed from the traveler, do you find that to match Sarl in any shape or form? The evidence given is far from overwhelming, I would hesitate to even call it circumstantial. Alia herself qualifies this idea as 'crazy'.

Let's take one point:

Who's this 'we' then, the traveller is talking about? How does that relate to Sarl? The case made is that 'we' is actually Kosoter and the traveler -- specu-Sarl. How does one infer that from the text? How is that more likely than that the 'we' is referring to a not-the-Skin-Eaters-group or person? This all follows from the idea that the traveler is actually part of the company. Which is an idea *only* brought forward to try to support the traveler = Sarl theory. There is nothing in the text there nor elsewhere to support that reading.

Basically the argument is Sarl is lying and Akka is lying or misled as well. Other characters have more serious ground for misdirection than poor Sarl.

And, what function would Sarl in the prologue as the traveler have? The prologue introduces the Skin-Eaters anyway, no Sarl as the traveler required. It introduces scalping, no Sarl as the traveler required. In that case, there is actually no need for a traveler character at all, is there?

Therefore I claim that the traveler has a different function. Sarl doesn't set anything in motion if he would be the traveler. Others, however:

In that tread there are more interesting and compelling suggestions than Sarl, Kayatus for one. But I stand by Geraus, 'we' refers to the Empire. Or Soma, where 'we' can stand for a few things. As the Skin-Spy is, I am quite sure, originally sent by the Consult to keep track of Cleric. The Erratic King of Ishterebinth.

Those two options for the traveler at least have a narrative payoff. A mystery revealed, albeit indirectly.

I'd venture to say Sarl is Zaudunyaini. Regardless Hiro, I just found her theory intriguing, with some circumstantial evidence to back it up. More than anyone else has gave, imo. Really, who the traveller is has little to no bearing on the narrative. I think Geraus is another compelling case, tbh. Though, it's not one of the mysteries I'm really concerned with. I really like reading the theories and evidence to back them up, though. Cheers, mate!

Deeper into WLW, I put forth a third option, as the SE's have been in the employ of the Empire to keep an eye on Akka.

The traveler could very well be an agent, Geraus or another, from the Empire. With the specific function to inform Kosoter that Mimara has fled from the palace, and is suspected to get to Achamian.

As the title of the book TJE, refers to Mimara as well, I lean to this option for now.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: MSJ on June 24, 2017, 09:47:30 am
Your assessment is very plausible and makes as much sense as any. I am neither for or against anyone being the Traveller, I just find it interesting to read everyone's ideas as to who it is.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: citizensnips on September 06, 2017, 07:46:39 pm
So in addition to intellect and motor reflexes, do the Dûnyain breed for insane finger strength? In TWP Kel survives an assassination attempt by reaching behind himself and catching the oncoming blade between his fingers.

Also, the first time he encounters a skin spy he reasons it's face is made of cartilage, "like a shark". How would he know what a shark is?

EDIT: These are probably less "loose threads" and more "little things that bugged me", but I've been needing to get that off my chest for a while now.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: SuJuroit on September 06, 2017, 08:50:04 pm
Quote
So in addition to intellect and motor reflexes, do the Dûnyain breed for insane finger strength? In TWP Kel survives an assassination attempt by reaching behind himself and catching the oncoming blade between his fingers.

The Dunyain are basically wuxia heroes.  They're as strong as they need to be in order to be awesome and badass.  Remember the scene where Kellhus dangled Cnaiur, a hulking mountain of muscle, over a cliff by his neck?  With one hand?  Yeah. 

Quote
Also, the first time he encounters a skin spy he reasons it's face is made of cartilage, "like a shark". How would he know what a shark is?

This one doesn't bug me too much. The Dunyain do have books and knowledge of mundane things, plus there's no telling what Kellhus picked up after he was "captured" by the Conriyans.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: themerchant on September 07, 2017, 10:21:05 am
I don't mind the one hand thing, I suspect Kellhus is significantly heavier than Cnaiur. He is of a bigger frame and has dense bones.

I just let it slide, cause then saying one thing and thinking the other makes a dragon appear from nowhere and breath fire would be a stretch for me to believe too.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: SuJuroit on September 07, 2017, 02:07:30 pm
I think Kellhus is taller than Cnaiur (who is himself described as pretty tall), but we don't see Kellhus described as especially muscular or strongly built, whereas we get countless descriptions of Cnaiur's incredibly broad shoulders, his bull-like chest, his heavily muscled arms, his "neckbreaking strength", etc.  You've got to figure a guy described like that (who is also described as tall) would have to weigh at the very least 200lbs, probably significantly more.  Considering a man of average strength might be able to hold 30-40lbs at arms length, shoulder height without dropping it or losing his balance, and a man of great strength might be able to handle twice that, but what Kellhus did was downright superhuman.

And I'm OK with that.  Like I said before, it's all part of establishing Kellhus as badass and explicitly superhuman.  He's quick and coordinated enough to snatch arrows from the air.  He's skilled enough to beat up his world's version of Conan the Barbarian.  He's strong enough to dangle said barbarian over a cliff with one hand.  He's persuasive enough to talk almost anybody into anything.  And it all works well within the context of the story.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: themerchant on September 07, 2017, 02:28:51 pm
Cnaiur is described as narrow waisted as well, so he could be built like Tommy Hearns.

"Cnaüir loomed above her. Broad shoulders and narrow hips" TDTCB chapter 14.

I believe bakker said there cnaiur was 2 inches shorter than Kellhus in a random chat ages ago.

I was just stating i think Kellhus would be a heavier than Cnaiur.

Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: SuJuroit on September 07, 2017, 03:50:58 pm
Arnold Schwarzenegger had narrow hips too, and Cnaiur is described as having that bodybuilder-esque triangle shape.  Tommy Hearns didn't have particularly broad shoulders for his size, he was kind of a narrow guy all around, and he certainly didn't have what I'd call a "bull-like chest". 

But I agree it's possible Kellhus weighs more than Cnaiur, especially if you factor in his super dense Dunyain bones (because naturally the Dunyain have more awesome bones than normal people).  We're repeatedly told that Kellhus is really tall, taller than almost all other characters except for guys like Yalgrota, so let's say he's 6'6, 250lbs?  Which would make Cnaiur 6'4, with a mighty frame, "strapped with muscle".  Maybe he's 220, 230lbs?  Those sizes work for my mental images of the characters.
Title: Re: Professor pail's Preponderance of Perplexing Puzzles
Post by: themerchant on September 07, 2017, 05:23:38 pm
Bakker has said that Kellhus was 6ft6 and Cnaiur 6ft4 back on 3 seas. So those seem the correct heights.

My original point is basically in the arena of suspension of disbelief, holding 200lb at arms length is always easier for me to believe than being able to do magic.