The Second Apocalypse
Earwa => The Aspect-Emperor => The Unholy Consult => Topic started by: Jorram on August 22, 2017, 12:13:55 pm
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Hi there,
I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.
(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.
I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.
(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.
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Welcome back to the Second Apocalypse, Jorram.
I'll probably finish reading today but I'll keep an eye out for code talk - especially given that Bakker shut down "simulation theory" on the recent r/fantasy AMA.
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Hi there,
I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.
(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.
I'm equally surprised that this hasn't been discussed more. My best guess is that upon death, the means by which a soul travels back to the outside is somehow perceivable by Ark. And that if enough souls are lost, the passage between the World and Outside can be identified and blocked.
Why the first apocalypse wasn't enough death, however, is unclear.
I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.
Well, in Bakker's world, revelation = hint and hint = something so obscure no one notices. So I'm not surprised we didn't get a concrete answer to this despite his claims.
Going into TUC I was convinced that all *men* were damned. And lo and behold, this was confirmed when Mimara looked upon Esme with TJE. But then she saw Serwa as a Ciphrang. So scratch that...
The only people who aren't damned are Mimara and Esme. Who aside from looking alike, are both former prostitutes. I'm not too familiar with Mary Magdalene's story. Was her former occupation significant?
(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.
I agree, this is important.
As for why TJE doesn't judge the NG, I figure this is because it's a soulless creation.
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Hi there,
I haven't really participated in the discussion here, as I rarely have the time to actively follow-up on posts but I've been reading a lot on the forum since I finished TUC. There are two thing that - to my surprise - I haven't seen being discussed and I wonder about your take on them.
(1) There hasn't to my knowledge been a very serious discussion about what the Mutilated mean when they say the No-God can read the code of Earwa by using deaths. Up to this point, the acquired wisdom has been that the No-God is a means to cut off the number of living souls and thus seal Earwa (and maybe other worlds as well) to the Outside. The entire code-reading narrative goes into an altogether different direction, signifying, at least to me, that the Ark was designed to gleam meaning from the specialness of Earwa where the Outside is closest to the physical reality and thus achieve world-sealing in some other, scientific, way.
I find it irritating that while Bakker claimed TUC would reveal or at least hint at who is right and who is wrong w/r/t understanding of Earwan metaphysics, he in fact only introduced further uncertainty. For example, Cet'inigra muses that the Oblivion approach of the Nonmen is fallacious although the text makes special effort to show that at least one Erratic does in fact escape Hell (granted, this might have been a special case, as has been discussed here). The book therefore keeps lacking clear authority on what exactly is the proper way to achieve salvation and what mechanisms allow it, and therefore fails to deliver at least on that front of Bakker's promises.
(2) More excitingly though, don't you find it highly revelatory that unlike Cnaiur/Ajokli, Mimara was in fact able to see the No-God with the Judging Eye? Literally leading to the important conclusion that the eschaton/invisibility argument doesn't extend to the God of Gods itself but just to the Hundred. I think this has immense metaphysical implications, which I am not altogether ready to summarize. It's also noteworthy that her perception of the sarcophagus didn't involve any descriptions of either damnation or salvation that have hitherto been present when she sees other entities with the Eye.
I think the code idea might just relate to how the Tekne works in general, that all things are mechanical. If we think of the universe as sort of a system (souls in, souls out, maybe souls back in or something) then the 'code' would more-so be Ark trying to understand this system through mass-death and how to shut it down. At least that was kind of how I read it, though it still raises the question of why the 144,000 if quantity of death is more important than remainder of life. Given we know the how is important, not the what (human extinction).
Can you elaborate how Cet'inigra implies/says Oblivion is fallacious? I might have just missed that part. I figured his 'we're all damned' thing was more the concept that damnation is nigh universal, not literally so. Unless I missed something specific in his musing. Though, I share your pain in regards to some of the unclearness of the layout of things.
As for the Judging Eye, I actually missed the part until someone pointed it out, and it seems terribly interesting. I really don't have enough on the concept of the Judging Eye, God of Gods, and how they relate/exist. Though, ever since the Survivor, I've felt like it might relate to the idea of Oblivion.
@profgrape - I'm not sure we should consider the No-God soulless. It required a soul, eh?
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Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie - I took that to reference the idea that they can find Oblivion and hide from damnation. This is why he understood that Nil'giccas and the rest of his people won't really believe, or rather accept such a revelation, because it would render all the strife and hopes in their lives to this point meaningless. One has to see the Inverse Fire to believe.
But then that Erratic's soul did slip the Ciphrang (again, that might be just a lucky circumstance, as has been posited).
With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God - why I think this is hugely important is because to some extent it puts the God of Gods outside the continuum as well (otherwise inability to perceive the NG follows), which lends credence to the Solitary God interpretation. On the other hand, Bakker seems to have said that the Fanim have it totally wrong....
(this feels like we are discussing the nature of quantum mechanics back in the 1920s :D)
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Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie
We should take that as his educated opinion as opposed to being unequivocally true.
With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God
When Cnaiur is still in possession of his own eyes, he sees the Sarcophagus even while being possessed by Ajokli. He stops seeing it when he sees "with Hell's own eyes".
First:
And in the heart of the Whirlwind he glimpsed rumours of it, the black shining jewel.
Then:
Even as it blinded the wind laid bare, exposing structures, devouring them, displaying the lurid layers beneath. With Hell’s own eyes, Cnaiür urs Skiötha peered up into the void and saw ... nothing.
Now compare it to what Mimara sees before the Whirlwind starts:
And she blinks and she blinks and yet still it hangs there ... scarab shining ...
“What is it?” Anasûrimbor Kellhus says, though he is nowhere to be seen. “What ails thee, Mimara?”
A sarcophagus, iridescent black, hovering where her stepfather stands robed in shining white ...
To me, it all reads not as clear as presented in the opening post.
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Well, Cet'inigra explicitly says that what the Nonmen believed in was a lie - I took that to reference the idea that they can find Oblivion and hide from damnation. This is why he understood that Nil'giccas and the rest of his people won't really believe, or rather accept such a revelation, because it would render all the strife and hopes in their lives to this point meaningless. One has to see the Inverse Fire to believe.
But then that Erratic's soul did slip the Ciphrang (again, that might be just a lucky circumstance, as has been posited).
With regards to the JE being able to see the No-God - why I think this is hugely important is because to some extent it puts the God of Gods outside the continuum as well (otherwise inability to perceive the NG follows), which lends credence to the Solitary God interpretation. On the other hand, Bakker seems to have said that the Fanim have it totally wrong....
(this feels like we are discussing the nature of quantum mechanics back in the 1920s :D)
For Cet'inigra, I think it is so much hubris and/or assumption. The fact being that most people seemingly are damned and the paths to Oblivion are what, 'tight as an arrow's notch'. Aurang said something very similar as well in regards to damnation being inevitable. I think either some Non-men had more liberal views on finding Oblivion before (that it wasn't quite so hard) or seeing the Inverse Fire is horrifying enough to convince him it wasn't possible. And there might be yet further aspects to Elision and how finding Oblivion works that is unknown.
As for the Judging Eye, I still have to wonder how it works. The entire scene where The Survivor gets high still seems like it might hold more clues. But I think whatever it is, the God of Gods, Oblivion, whatever, that it certainly differs from the ordinary gods (imo).
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The only people who aren't damned are Mimara and Esme. Who aside from looking alike, are both former prostitutes. I'm not too familiar with Mary Magdalene's story. Was her former occupation significant?
Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.
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Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.
Sorweel is also saved.
And possibly Celmomas, since Gilgaol takes him after giving him the prophecy. Not completely sure about this, though, need to re-read it.
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Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.
Sorweel is also saved.
And possibly Celmomas, since Gilgaol takes him after giving him the prophecy. Not completely sure about this, though, need to re-read it.
From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.
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From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.
Thank you! I remembered it wasn't very clear, not to mention happening in a dream of undetermined credibility.
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Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.
Yes, your correct. I forget who though. I will try and find the quote.
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Perhaps I misread or misinterpreted it, but wasn't one warrior of the Ordeal saved toward the end? He died and was carried into the arms of Gilgaol or some such.
Yes, your correct. I forget who though. I will try and find the quote.
It's the leader of the guys with two hearts. It happens when Serwa (already burned) saves Esmenet, Mimara, and Akka.
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This was how King Coithus Narnol was maimed and forced to retire back to the Canal, and how Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...
Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.
There you go! I remembered this also when reading your post just now.
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From what I recall, this was when Akka was seeing Seswatha's vision through Celmomas, so the situation remains in question. And I think he wakes up before he dies as well. But that's the thought he has 'Gilgoal came for him' rather. And sees what he thinks is Gilgoal. Though, with Kellhus in the vision and 'four horns', hard to say.
Thank you! I remembered it wasn't very clear, not to mention happening in a dream of undetermined credibility.
I was actually reading it in regards to the Celmoman Prophechy.
Also, it was High Thane Sosering Rauchurl of the Holca who is noted as going to the war god.
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Going into TUC I was convinced that all *men* were damned. And lo and behold, this was confirmed when Mimara looked upon Esme with TJE. But then she saw Serwa as a Ciphrang. So scratch that...
When did Mimara see Serwa as a Ciphrang? I totally missed that.... I need to re-read this book.
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I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.
Has Resumption bared the rest of the Hundred from interferring in the real world?
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
The source and method of delivery of the Celmoman Prophecy is entirely suspect. (Shows Kellhus from the future quite clearly, delivered whilst the No-god is rendering the Gods witless.) The only way it comes from the Gods is via Ajokli if he is immanent during the Apocalypse - which is merely my own speculation.
Re: Serwa; being seen as Ciphrang is not confirmed as being quite the same as damnation.
What is the significance of those the Judging Eye sees as ciphrang? Is this a sign of deep sin (extra-toasty damnation) or transcendent spiritual power?
Yes.
Yes implies an 'and/or' answer.
I don't think the Consult are correct in their overall interpretation of the fate of souls in the outside (outside of their own). In The False Sun Aurang also tells Tirtirga Oblivion is impossible and that everyone is damned.
“You worship the spaces between the Gods ...”
“Yes.”
A rasp like the screams of faraway children tangled in the wind. Inchoroi laughter. “You are already damned. All of you are already damned.”
“So say you.”
A deep chested rumble. Popping mucous. “So says the Inverse Fire.”
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All Men wailed. All Men burned all the time. They need only die to realize it.
Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 11936-11937). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.
I believe the Consult and the Dunyain are both clearly shown to be wrong about many things in TGO and TUC. The Truth they hold is just a part of the whole - and there are many other Truths that they deny.
Given the origins of the Inchoroi as outlined in TUC, we should remember that the Inverse Fire is primarily there to ensure they perform the Task the progenitors have set.
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Yeah the code thing is definitely something we could delve into more. Also, did Mimara actually use the Judging Eye to see the carapace? Like, maybe she just used her normal eyes. In fact, maybe it's the fact that the Judging Eye saw NOTHING which alerted her human eyes to the illusion at hand.
I'm pretty convinced Cet'ingira and The Consult are correct when it comes to Oblivion. It's there, but it's like the most rare out of the 3 fates in the Outside. This is possibly connected to premeditation. You can't actively seek oblivion, but it can come to you when you're a crazy Erratic who has lost most of his mental faculties.
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I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.
It was stated that the Gods could see and hear their followers just fine during the Apocalypse (somewhere in the Aspect-Emperor and maybe multiple times). They can't see the No-God, but they can see the World, at least while it isn't shut off completely, for which the No-God by itself isn't sufficient.
Here's a quote (https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl2b14m/):
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
The Gods losing their memories doesn't mean they can't see the world. They can't correctly interpret it and are prone to being subverted, but they are still a factor. There is also no reason to consider Ajokli being somehow exempt from this rule. The fact that he could manifest fully or almost fully in the Golden Room doesn't necessarily make him more of a power than he was before (I don't see why it should), nor does it change his nature, since his nature is atemporal (this also works for considering him more powerful because of entering the world). Actually, if entering the world somehow changed Ajokli, then he was always changed. Perhaps that's what sets him apart from the other Gods, which was referenced in the narrative and the Glossary.
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@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already. ;)
I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything. We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.
No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.
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The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve. What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment. So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.
I don't think Celmomas was saved at all. Seems like no one gets saved while the No-god walks. The Gods can't perceive the World at all.
It was stated that the Gods could see and hear their followers just fine during the Apocalypse (somewhere in the Aspect-Emperor and maybe multiple times). They can't see the No-God, but they can see the World, at least while it isn't shut off completely, for which the No-God by itself isn't sufficient.
While it is true that the world is no sealed pre-144k and that the No-God is a tool to both achieve 144k and to seal the world once it is achieved, we do have anecdotal evidence that Celmomas would not be saved, via Skafra's talk with Seswatha. It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.
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The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve. What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment. So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.
Probably wildly off-topic but we should also note that that specific Nonmen was fighting for the Consult.
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The thing is Bakker already told us, both extra-textually and in the books themselves that Oblivion is both real and possible, just very difficult to achieve. What the Inverse Fire does is tell you things as they are at that moment. So, it's no real surprise that everyone that has looked in it would see damnation, because redemption or Oblivion is probably (for most) a lifelong journey, with only the end being the final straw that casts your soul's lot for good.
Probably wildly off-topic but we should also note that that specific Nonmen was fighting for the Consult.
Interesting, but that would sort of make sense, in that Oblivion is less a judgement that an achievement?
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I still want to hear about Redemption and Angelic-Ciphrang...
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@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already. ;)
I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything. We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.
No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.
Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.
@H - Is that how it works (the Inverse Fire)? Kellhus' statements and the glossary imply to me that whatever they see is a sure thing. Granted, Kellhus may or may not understand the device, but he seems to grasp it quickly. And basically seemed to say 'it finds your soul in eternity then parses it so you can understand in the now'. Which, if that's the case, then the soul is already one way or another. Except for the No-God being the force that can change eternity.
Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.
@TwoMinutesToApocalypse - I know it mentions her seeing a witch as a slender ciphrang above them in the battle.
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Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.
Right, so if we put together the (presumable) source of the name Cara-Sincurimoi "Angel of Endless Hunger," with Skfra's comment there about tasting his passing, and "souls that encounter him pass no further," the implication there would seem to me to be that the No-God is not allowing souls to pass through to the Outside, presumably this is how it "broke" the great Cycle of Souls.
It's plausible though that this is a mistake, rather it's a case of the "taste" is the "code-flash" and the cycle is broken by simply just not allowing souls back in. This doesn't, however, square away the souls passing no further, so I rate it as less plausible.
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@SmilerLoki, I included those quotes already. ;)
I know, I just added the link.
I have no idea how you conclude that Gods with Alzeihmers can do anything.
The same way that people with it do. They forget some things, but not all things. Their memory is not erased completely and instantaneously. By analogy, the Gods are uncomprehending to some things now, but not to all things. What they still know, they can interact with.
We're talking about an inability to grasp or form memories in creatures that depend entirely on the memories they harvest from souls.
We have no evidence of the Gods needing souls to have memory. We still have no idea whether the Gods are dependent on humans/souls, and if so, then why. They don't seem to be D&D types of divinities, or at least not even close to fully. And if the Gods are dependent on humans, then if their connection to the world is severed as you postulate, then they should cease to exist. I do think it's what the No-God is for, but I don't think it's accomplished. I think it only really starts when the population is cut down to the 144k.
No more babies = no more souls. Maybe they can peer uncomprehendingly through birds or whatnot, but I don't believe the Gods can intercede from the outside.
There are still living people, who have souls, even working under your assumptions.
Basically, saying the Gods cannot intercede means the Outside cannot intercede, which would mean it's shut off. It isn't. It's impeded in some ways, mainly concerning the Gods, but not at all in others (at least we have no evidence of that), like sorcery.
It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.
I also don't think he was lying here. What he easily could've been, though, is mistaken (completely or partially). As creatures of the Inchoroi, dragons seem to be heavily indoctrinated. And their "religion" had already been ill-understood by the Inchoroi when they created Wracu.
That being said, it's clear to me (since I find textual evidence of it) that the No-God indeed interacts with souls. But the extent, method, and end-result of this interaction are all completely unclear. And not in a "I can't imagine what happens here"-kind of way. It's much worse, actually, since I can concoct dozens of workable theories. The problem with all of them is the same: lack of information. Right now the effects of the No-God are defined so vaguely they can be interpreted in contradictory ways. And there is no opportunity to test theories. So when a need to explain something in one specific way arises, it basically means there is no possibility to consider that theory true. It becomes just one of many equally probable speculative outlooks.
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There is one more important thing to consider about Skafra's words. During the Apocalypse operation of the System was terminated in an unexpected way, and there is no information on what would that entail. In particular, for Celmomas's soul.
We know the Indigo Plague happened soon afterward, but that's pretty much it.
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It could be that Skafra is lying, but I don't really find any reason to think he is, plus the further anecdotal evidence point to the fact of "souls that encounter the No-God pass no further" as being true.
I also don't think he was lying here. What he easily could've been, though, is mistaken (completely or partially). As creatures of the Inchoroi, dragons seem to be heavily indoctrinated. And their "religion" had already been ill-understood by the Inchoroi when they created Wracu.
That being said, it's clear to me (since I find textual evidence of it) that the No-God indeed interacts with souls. But the extent, method, and end-result of this interaction are all completely unclear. And not in a "I can't imagine what happens here"-kind of way. It's much worse, actually, since I can concoct dozens of workable theories. The problem with all of them is the same: lack of information. Right now the effects of the No-God are defined so vaguely they can be interpreted in contradictory ways. And there is no opportunity to test theories. So when a need to explain something in one specific way arises, it basically means there is no possibility to consider that theory true. It becomes just one of many equally probable speculative outlooks.
True, I try my best to frame my posts in such a way to not attempt to play at facts. Rather, I usually try to use evidence in the books, or from what Bakker said, to construct hypothetical plausible explanations of things. In the end though, the true fact of the matter is that we don't know exactly how the No-God functions and we probably never will.
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Also, what does Skafra say that implies Celmomas wouldn't have been saved? All I saw from him was mentioning, 'our lord hath tasted thy king's passing', which seemed a reference to just knowing he died.
Right, so if we put together the (presumable) source of the name Cara-Sincurimoi "Angel of Endless Hunger," with Skfra's comment there about tasting his passing, and "souls that encounter him pass no further," the implication there would seem to me to be that the No-God is not allowing souls to pass through to the Outside, presumably this is how it "broke" the great Cycle of Souls.
It's plausible though that this is a mistake, rather it's a case of the "taste" is the "code-flash" and the cycle is broken by simply just not allowing souls back in. This doesn't, however, square away the souls passing no further, so I rate it as less plausible.
I think the latter is more likely, as 'tasted his passing' to me reads much more as having noticed his death, just the wording in general. If it meant to imply he ate his soul, I would think 'tasted his soul' or something would fit.
Also, as for the 'shall not pass' line, I always saw that as a reference (from the context) to the unique nature of the battleplain as the location of the No-God's death. They think it is an ongoing issue. This isn't hard evidence against, but Akka doesn't seem to question the prophecy dream for consistency in that aspect. He doesn't say, 'weird that Gilgoal showed up because he wouldn't be able to.'
The Angel of Endless Hunger certainly could be interpreted different ways as well. Note, I'm not adamantly against the idea. I feel like there must be some line about the Gods and the No-God that probably explains it. Just not a reading that feels intuitive to me. But that's just me.
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Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.
Thing is that the Gods dwell in sub-realities where reality conforms to desire. The things in those realities are harvested from memories of the real world. They interact with reality through souls like Sorweel and Psatma primarily via memories.
Does the Celmoman prophecy seem like it was delivered by someone with Alzhiemers?
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Thing is that the Gods dwell in sub-realities where reality conforms to desire. The things in those realities are harvested from memories of the real world.
Why do you think so?
I can propose another explanation. The Gods, being intrinsically connected with Men and anthropomorphic, conform to cultural reality. Or some mainly subconscious rendering of it. Their realms are shaped by all Men throughout history simultaneously, and their connection to souls in this framework is ever-present, i.e. they are connected with the entirety of Mankind, which in turn creates the Gods the way the are. So the Gods are what Men imagine nature and life to be, only real and affirming their existence.
But there are other ways to think about it.
Does the Celmoman prophecy seem like it was delivered by someone with Alzhiemers?
Here, I fear, we can have it both ways, and also every way in between.
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Well, not to be critical of the analogy, but people with Alzheimer's can influenced the world. Memory issues don't preclude the ability to interact with things. And given Kellhus in the vision, for all we know, he was aiding Gilgoal or Ajokli for some reason. Now, I'm not sure one way or another, I imagine there are other textual statements on the matter. Just saying for the sake of that answer, it isn't clear they could or couldn't manifest influence.
Thing is that the Gods dwell in sub-realities where reality conforms to desire. The things in those realities are harvested from memories of the real world. They interact with reality through souls like Sorweel and Psatma primarily via memories.
Does the Celmoman prophecy seem like it was delivered by someone with Alzhiemers?
Really? I always thought they were just using visions for Sorweel. They also use that mud-face that the one slave makes. And he's always seeing that bird (heron? stork?). Either way, I still don't find the terminology compelling to say they are literally unable to influence the world.
The Celmoman prophecy seems like it was delivered by someone who is bad at giving messages.
"Brave King…
Brave, broken King…
Behold the son of a hundred fathers…
Behold the end of the World…"
If the wording is to be believed, though there might be more because it seems a stretch to interpret that into 'they said another Anasurimbor will come at the end of the world' with nothing else.
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The Celmoman prophecy seems like it was delivered by someone who is bad at giving messages.
"Brave King…
Brave, broken King…
Behold the son of a hundred fathers…
Behold the end of the World…"
If the wording is to be believed, though there might be more because it seems a stretch to interpret that into 'they said another Anasurimbor will come at the end of the world' with nothing else.
Obscure like all the prophecies.
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Well and good. I think the Gods are largely neutralized while the No-God is functional, but we shall see.
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Well and good. I think the Gods are largely neutralized while the No-God is functional, but we shall see.
From what we have seen, they shouldn't be able to at least directly oppose the No-God.
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Well and good. I think the Gods are largely neutralized while the No-God is functional, but we shall see.
From what we have seen, they shouldn't be able to at least directly oppose the No-God.
Not that we can know, really, but things could be different this time, given Ajokli's presence in Eärwa now and the possibility he thinks Kellhus is in the Sarcophagus.
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I kind of back the idea that Ajokli retains agency via having some portion of himself in the material realm.
But it's equally likely to me that it just took some time for the No God's "virus" to erase his mind - even as he manifested through Cnaiur.
At any rate, he seems like the most demonic and evil out of the Hundred so I don't know if it would be a good thing.
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I think it's narratively tempting to use Ajokli as a plot device somewhere down the line.
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Well and good. I think the Gods are largely neutralized while the No-God is functional, but we shall see.
From what we have seen, they shouldn't be able to at least directly oppose the No-God.
Not that we can know, really, but things could be different this time, given Ajokli's presence in Eärwa now and the possibility he thinks Kellhus is in the Sarcophagus.
Well, it seemed like Cnaiür thought he was in there. Ajokli still couldn't see it.
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I forgot to mention this in my earlier post about "the code". But I think what they're talking about is "99 + 1". The fact that it's come up in two seemingly disconnected places feels like a hint.