The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => General Earwa => Topic started by: greatbigsky on August 28, 2013, 09:34:25 pm

Title: Chorae
Post by: greatbigsky on August 28, 2013, 09:34:25 pm
Hi everyone, I am new here.  I have been reading for a while but just now posted.
I have just finished The Thousandfold Thought and can't wait to start the next book!
I apologize if this has already been covered somewhere, I did look to try to find it.  My husband and I were talking and we both wonder; why do the sorcerers not wear some kind of armor?  It seems that chorae work by skin contact with someone with the Mark.  Why not wear some type of armor or other body covering to help prevent this skin contact?  Does Bakker ever address this?
Thanks in advance and thanks for the fascinating forum!
Cheers
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Francis Buck on August 28, 2013, 10:33:54 pm
Welcome, and this is a good question. I vaguely remember some discussion of this over on Westeros.org, but it was awhile ago. Bakker does address it later on to some degree. I think the issue has been left purposefully vague. Sorcerers (particularly very powerful ones) seem to get affected by chorae even at a distance, but I don't think we've seen someone die from one without direct skin-contact, which does make me wonder why some kind of armor isn't employed more often (I don't know how much you want spoiled so I won't say anything specific, but the issue is brought up eventually, though for me personally it actually created more questions than it answered). 
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on August 29, 2013, 12:22:16 am
My take is that schoolmen are more philosopher than warrior. They study all day in dimly lit rooms and memorize spells and such. Take dear old Akka for example, he's a fat middle-aged man. I just can't see him getting very far in full platemail armor.

At least that is the way I always justified it. Schoolmen tend to think themselves invincible and tend to be full of themselves. It could just be a big ego that gets in the way.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on August 29, 2013, 01:25:41 am
I also believe it might have something to do with societal caste prohibitions.  The warrior caste has access to arms and armament with nary a question raised because they need those items to fulfill their duties.  I doubt jnan would allow for cross-caste access to the accoutrement of other castes.  Certainly caste-menials would not be allowed arms and armament.  I think when you become a schoolman, you're automatically prohibited from owning or at least displaying certain items, armor probably being one of them.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2013, 12:04:01 am
Welcome to The Second Apocalypse, greatbigsky. Or posting here, anyhow :).

I think the opinions offered so far miss some crucial bullet-points of interaction and balance of power. Wilshire almost raises it but then segues with a joke.

The Scholastic Wars have been fought in Earwa and humanity's Few won. Moreover, the only people who own Chorae are caste-nobility as Somnambulist suggested.

Though we know very little of the actualities of the Scholastic Wars, I'd hazard that in Earwa's historical notation consequences of the existence of the sorcery is a common fulcrum. We have the Shriah calling a holy war against the Schools, which marks the only point of an organized attempt at fielding Chorae against Sorcerers in the current age of Earwa.

I figure there was no generative moment for the advent of armor for Schoolmen because the Schools have only fought eachother, otherwise. Though there might have been some attempts during the aforementioned wars...
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on August 30, 2013, 01:01:26 am
One thing that gets me is that in the beginning it was said the chorae are basically the most valuable thing in Earwa. Something about the marriage dowry of two royal families being the only suitable occasion to give/receive such a valuable and precious artifact.

Then, 5 books later, everyone and their brother has a chorae and some people have several,
Quote
not to mention the great chorae hoard hold and the legions of sranc/bashrag that apparently have them

Or chorae bowman!? That really is the one that kills me. You actually have bowman shooting arrows tipped with the Tears of God (HA the god weeps and the sky rains righteous water, but i digress).... That would be like shooting the entire wealth of Nations into the air per volley.

Sounds to me a bit like a renege.

Anyway, I was serious about the ego thing. Schoolmen could be whole cities in a few days, but they refuse to do any menial task with their power. I seriously doubt they would stoop so low as to wear the armor of a lowly soldier.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on August 30, 2013, 06:22:59 pm
Anyway, I was serious about the ego thing. Schoolmen could be whole cities in a few days, but they refuse to do any menial task with their power. I seriously doubt they would stoop so low as to wear the armor of a lowly soldier.

This point is actually born out in the major battle scenes at the end of TTT.  The Scarlet Schoolmen are virtually surrounded by shield bearers to deflect incoming charae, yet would not deign to protect themselves with armor of their own.  Plus, they were all relatively old(er) and would most likely find it more difficult to step into the sky, or even move about generally, wearing heavy armor.  I think you touched on this earlier with the Akka comment, as well.

I'll buy that.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 30, 2013, 10:58:29 pm
One thing that gets me is that in the beginning it was said the chorae are basically the most valuable thing in Earwa. Something about the marriage dowry of two royal families being the only suitable occasion to give/receive such a valuable and precious artifact.

Then, 5 books later, everyone and their brother has a chorae and some people have several,
Quote
not to mention the great chorae hoard hold and the legions of sranc/bashrag that apparently have them

Valuable in the Three-Seas, contemporaneously of the Holy War. Also, greatbigsky did mention reading only to TTT - though this is the notorious Misc. Chatter.

Or chorae bowman!? That really is the one that kills me. You actually have bowman shooting arrows tipped with the Tears of God (HA the god weeps and the sky rains righteous water, but i digress).... That would be like shooting the entire wealth of Nations into the air per volley.

Sounds to me a bit like a renege.

I think there is a quote referencing their collection after battles. Even still the Scarlet Spires almost certainly would affect their collection, if they weren't systematically scavenged by the caste-nobles.

This point is actually born out in the major battle scenes at the end of TTT.  The Scarlet Schoolmen are virtually surrounded by shield bearers to deflect incoming charae, yet would not deign to protect themselves with armor of their own.  Plus, they were all relatively old(er) and would most likely find it more difficult to step into the sky, or even move about generally, wearing heavy armor.  I think you touched on this earlier with the Akka comment, as well.

I'll buy that.

Truth.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: EkyannusIII on October 16, 2013, 06:11:32 pm
Randumb question - could a Chorae be sterilized and then surgically implanted using high medieval medicine? Keep in mind that these things are only possessed by the elite, so the best medical care of the day would be available to them, not the butchery of the village medicine man.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on October 16, 2013, 07:12:55 pm
Sure, why not? I mean, we might have to suspend judgement concerning rejection of metals implanted in the skin and complications and death associated with toxicity but...
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Garet Jax on October 16, 2013, 08:17:21 pm
I think I read it in TTT and can't remember clearly, but did the Inchoroi make the Chorae themselves after learning of the Aporos or was it the Nonmen that they seduced who actually made them?

At work again... getting my Bakker fix.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on October 16, 2013, 09:24:49 pm
Lol, I just posted this in another thread but:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, 2005
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

Also:

Quote from: TTT Glossary, p545
After the disaster of Pir Pahal, the Inchoroi had seduced the practitioners of the Aporos, who had been forbidden from pursuing their art. Poisoned by knowledge, they devised the first of the Chorae to render their master immune to Cunoroi magic.
Title: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 02:21:34 pm
No other Cish uses either Skype or BFoLF in the entire series that we are aware of, neh?

Not the same but Inrau's sorcerous punching speed?

I'd like to point out that Kellhus didn't use any sorcery when he fought the thing.

I love when Kellhus fights the skin-spies through Caraskand... so epic, gall.

I mean, sorcery is cool and all but...

It seems to me that useing sorcery to agument your own person like Inrau did would make someone like Kellhus unstoppable because it circumvents the immunity of the chorae barer.
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 05:22:40 pm
Why? It's Sarcellus', non-Chorae having, companion skin-spy who gets his heart ripped out...
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 05:40:34 pm
Why? It's Sarcellus', non-Chorae having, companion skin-spy who gets his heart ripped out...
Sure but it seems like a general rule that the chorae only makes you immune to the metaphysical. Pick up a rock and throw it with sorcery and it still hurts. I can't imagine why this wouldn't extend to the body of the caster.
I guess the schoolman would still have to worry about being hit by the chorae. Wouldn't want to plunge your hand through a suit of armor and clip a chorae on your way in. Instasalt.

Still though moving at hyper speeds would have a lot of advantages.
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 05:49:17 pm
Why? It's Sarcellus', non-Chorae having, companion skin-spy who gets his heart ripped out...
Sure but it seems like a general rule that the chorae only makes you immune to the metaphysical. Pick up a rock and throw it with sorcery and it still hurts. I can't imagine why this wouldn't extend to the body of the caster.
I guess the schoolman would still have to worry about being hit by the chorae. Wouldn't want to plunge your hand through a suit of armor and clip a chorae on your way in. Instasalt.

Still though moving at hyper speeds would have a lot of advantages.

You've been hovering around Westeros? This seems to reflect the flavour of the day there...

I just don't know then, Wilshire. I'm thinking that Inrau's hand would have been stopped wherever the boundary of a Chorae extends to (whatever that is; a foot away, at the armor, at the skin, etc) if he'd tried that shit on Sarcellus.
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 06:03:21 pm
As a rule I try to avoid the-forum-that-shall-not-be-named.  ;). So no I haven't been lurking.


What makes the hand different than a rock in this situation? The Swayali cloth blocks chorae quite nicely, and Kellhus' little rock whirlwind in Shimeh kept him alive as well.
Also, Achamian dropping the roof on the Javreh killed all of them.

Why not your hand?
If not the hand, then what about if it was gloved, either in mail or in leather or even cloth?
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 06:09:09 pm
Lol - so either:

You're holding a Chorae in your hand held above your head and I punch through your chest with sorcerous speed, you die and the Chorae affords you no protection because it didn't touch me directly?

OR

You're holding a Chorae in your hand above your head and I go to punch through your chest with sorcerous speed but turn to salt the second we make skin-to-skin contact?

Tedium-extraordinaire ;).
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Wilshire on November 28, 2013, 06:14:03 pm
I guess thats the conundrum.

But to me, since the clothing still flutters with sorcerous wind as its struck by the chorae arrows, or since the rocks still spin around when they are struck, it seems to me that their magical enchantment isn't removed with the contact.

Also, we know that there is some distance affect of the chorae effect (I'm sorry for using affect/effect incorrectly if I did), so do certain parts of the body have less protection than others? Like if held in the right hand, is the left under less anti-magic shielding?

btw, does the chorae remove the mark? Does the salt pillar lose the bruise, and is the scarred battle ground of an arcane standoff healed? We know that objects that are worked, such as the ground hit by The Culling (or whatever its called when the schoolmen try to kill the sranc), bares the mark. The physical ground is not "reknit" when the chorae pass by, but is the bruise healed?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on November 28, 2013, 08:04:43 pm
But to me, since the clothing still flutters with sorcerous wind as its struck by the chorae arrows, or since the rocks still spin around when they are struck, it seems to me that their magical enchantment isn't removed with the contact.

Noted. Good call.

Also, we know that there is some distance affect of the chorae effect (I'm sorry for using affect/effect incorrectly if I did), so do certain parts of the body have less protection than others? Like if held in the right hand, is the left under less anti-magic shielding?

I think you're good on affect/effect but I question it notoriously myself.

To the bold, I don't know but it's a distinction that should be described.

btw, does the chorae remove the mark? Does the salt pillar lose the bruise, and is the scarred battle ground of an arcane standoff healed? We know that objects that are worked, such as the ground hit by The Culling (or whatever its called when the schoolmen try to kill the sranc), bares the mark. The physical ground is not "reknit" when the chorae pass by, but is the bruise healed?

I hazard that there is no Mark on Salt Pillar Sorcerers. The fact that they salt and Cishaurim don't and that the only distinction between them is the difference in Mark...

The Chorae seems to be interacting specifically with the Mark, not the fact that it encounters sorcery (as different kinds and skill-levels of sorcery establish noticably different Marks - Titirga and the Cishaurim offering a narrative cypher of sorts).

While Salting seems to happen immediately once touched, I would guess that if it happened slow enough to watch the unsalted portion of the sorcerer would still carry the Mark but the salted portion would not.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2013, 12:13:00 am
While Salting seems to happen immediately once touched, I would guess that if it happened slow enough to watch the unsalted portion of the sorcerer would still carry the Mark but the salted portion would not.
Lol that would be sweet. Plugging in a super high speed camera and watching a chorae work its "magic" on a schoolman. The slow transmutation of flesh into salt.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 01, 2013, 01:53:21 pm
Pfft. You know that will be a thing whenever a visual medium is adapted to TSA :)).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Ishammael on December 02, 2013, 06:02:43 pm
To drive into further needless questions...

If you cut the arm off a person with the Mark, and then hit it with a chorae... will the arm salt?  Will you see the Mark on the arm after it is cut off? 

What about the hair of a Marked man?  After he gets a haircut, will it have the Mark and/or be saltable?

I honestly doubt that these sorts of questions have any relevancy in the story and I don't think that Bakker has probably pondered the nuance... but still fun to question!
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 02, 2013, 11:27:59 pm
Chorae undo the changes wrought by sorcery. 

In the case of salting sorcerers, it seems to be an action that occurs on the sorcerer's soul (which is the mechanism of sorcery) rather than their body.  When chorae cancel the effects of a sorcerous assault there is no salty residue.  I imagine touching a dismembered arm would not turn it to salt because the sorcerer's soul is no longer connected.

Touching a wathi doll might create a little pile of salt though.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on December 02, 2013, 11:43:13 pm
Chorae undo the changes wrought by sorcery. 
I thought chorae semantically negated (or perhaps are semantically not overridden) by sorcery.

Or it could just be a chorae is inscribed with:

+++Divide by Cucumber error.

Please reinstall soul and reboot.+++

which would naturally turn anyone into salt. being rebooted is not so good for the sack-o-flesh human.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 03, 2013, 12:17:09 am
Sorry I misspoke. 
By changes, I meant the semantic regression. The soul is the source of the regression. Chorae negate sorcery as it occurs.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 03, 2013, 05:18:03 pm
To drive into further needless questions...

1) If you cut the arm off a person with the Mark, and then hit it with a chorae... will the arm salt?  2) Will you see the Mark on the arm after it is cut off? 

3) What about the hair of a Marked man?  4) After he gets a haircut, will it have the Mark and/or be saltable?

I honestly doubt that these sorts of questions have any relevancy in the story and I don't think that Bakker has probably pondered the nuance... but still fun to question!

Measure is unceasing ;).

1 - 4: I think the Salting depends on the appendage remaining attached to the soul. So arm/hair would remained Marked, like other inert objects (Achamian mentions the trees carrying the Mark of his battles with Sranc around his tower long after they've ceased happening and Serwa remarks on the "Nameless Ruins" in Wilshire's Ch. 3 Excerpt summary carrying a "strange Mark"). The argument would be then that Marked inert objects don't react to the Chorae because it is not ensoulled.

Like...

I imagine touching a dismembered arm would not turn it to salt because the sorcerer's soul is no longer connected.

Touching a wathi doll might create a little pile of salt though.

+1.

Chorae undo the changes wrought by sorcery. 
I thought chorae semantically negated (or perhaps are semantically not overridden) by sorcery.

Or it could just be a chorae is inscribed with:

+++Divide by Cucumber error.

Please reinstall soul and reboot.+++

which would naturally turn anyone into salt. being rebooted is not so good for the sack-o-flesh human.

I Lol'd.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on December 03, 2013, 07:17:39 pm

1 - 4: I think the Salting depends on the appendage remaining attached to the soul. So arm/hair would remained Marked, like other inert objects (Achamian mentions the trees carrying the Mark of his battles with Sranc around his tower long after they've ceased happening and Serwa remarks on the "Nameless Ruins" in Wilshire's Ch. 3 Excerpt summary carrying a "strange Mark"). The argument would be then that Marked inert objects don't react to the Chorae because it is not ensoulled.



iirc, Kellhus sees the mark on the nameless ruins he encounters pre-Leweth.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 04, 2013, 10:58:20 am
False Prophecy (http://second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=453.msg2052#msg2052):
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: Madness
Lol - well, lockesnow +1. Thank you... I just realized that the ruins Moenghus the Younger dubs "Nameless" in TUC, Ch. 3 are one of the two ruins from the Prologue of TDTCB - if Wilshire remembers a dead tree, then certainly the Nonmen ruins South-West of Ishual and Leweth's camp where Kellhus fights Mekeritrig.

Alright well I recall no tree, sorry about that.  IIRC they were in a field. I also seem to think that they where on the west side of the mountain range, rather than the east where Kellhus would have been running through.

If you could be so kind, would you direct me to the relevant section in TDTCB. I'll read it over and see if my faded memory comes up with any similarities.

Quote from: TDTCB, p9
The ruins were far too old to contradict the forest outright. They had been submerged, worn and unbalanced by the ages of its weight. Sheltered in mossy hollows, walls breached earthen mounds, only to suddenly end, as though restrained by vines that wrapped them like great veins over bone.

But there was something in them, something not now, that bent Kellhus toward unfamiliar passions. When he brushed his hands across the stone, he knew he touched the breath and toil of Men - the mark of a destroyed people.

The ground wheeled. He leaned forward and pressed his cheek against the stone. Grit, and the cold uncovered earth. Above, the sunlight was broken by a span of knotted branches. Men... here in the stone. Old and untouched by the rigour of the Dunyain. Somehow they had resisted the sleep, had raised the work of hands against the wilderness.

I'm not sure how to read it. And Wilshire does suggest above that the three amigos are on the westside of the mountains.

Maybe it is laced and Titirga laid waste to an ancient people there.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 04, 2013, 11:02:40 pm
iirc, Kellhus sees the mark on the nameless ruins he encounters pre-Leweth.
After reading Madness' quote, I'd have to disagree. Reminds me a lot more of a Topos than of a marked place. "Something not now" and "he touched the breadth and toil of man" drive me towards Topos. However, I only see it when I'm looking hard for it. Hard to say if there is anything actually there at all.
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Francis Buck on December 06, 2013, 02:18:12 am
What makes the hand different than a rock in this situation? The Swayali cloth blocks chorae quite nicely, and Kellhus' little rock whirlwind in Shimeh kept him alive as well.

Is there a specific example of the Swayali cloth blocking chorae, and then what happens afterwards? I just recently re-read the Kellhus/whirlwind part, and it does say specifically that a chorae arrow glances off a rock, cracking the sorcery that bound it there.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2013, 03:02:02 am
Nope I have no specific proof, other than a faulty memory. You're correct, it does say "cracked the sorcery that bound it there".
Oh well there goes that line of though. Thanks for the correction.

BTW from reading that scene, a few things jumped out.

1) Kellhus was losing the battle with the 4 Cish. Guess he wasn't quite yet omnipotent yet. The only reason he won was because he did his little transposing stunt.

2) He 'tranposes' behind 2 of the Cish in quick succession, then catches a flying chorae bolt, throws it at the 3rd, and then destroys that last Cish.
2a) 2 jumps in a row didn't seem to cause him to be too tired. Not quite 100 jumps back to the empire but still...
2b) He catches the chorae bolt and is still able to maintain his flight. Or at least I assume he was flying since the bolt was fired from below. Maybe its just me, but I imagine this scene with all the schoolmen floating.
2c) Another description of a Cish being hit by a chorae. I had thought that Moenghus was the only one:

Quote
Proyas saw Kellhus jerk as the body tumbled down, realized he had caught a crossbow bolt fired from below. In a single snapping motion, he threw it like a knife at the nearest sorcerer-priest. There was a burst of incandescence rimmed by a nacre of black. The figure dropped.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02 04:00:00+00:00). The Thousandfold Thought (Kindle Locations 7630-7631). Overlook. Kindle Edition.
My bold. It would seem Moe's death wasn't unique.

EDIT:
The only other time the word nacre is used in TTT is from the POV of Eleäzaras:
Quote
There was a flash, white ringed with a nacre of black. One of their number, Rimon, plummeted to ground, where he shattered salt. The others ran across sky.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02 04:00:00+00:00). The Thousandfold Thought (Kindle Locations 6774-6776). Overlook. Kindle Edition. 
It seems that the Cish and the other schoolmen all die the same. I know this has been discussed before, but I don't know if anyone ever came to a conclusion.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Francis Buck on December 06, 2013, 03:20:22 am
What's interesting is that the word "salt" or "salting" never seems to be used, to my knowledge, in regards to the death of Cish. Perhaps most notably, in this case of Moe, he's referred to as a corpse. And, of course, his eyes flash with light, implying non-psukhe related sorcery.

All in all, I think the nature of a Cish death is left intentionally vague, specifically because it pertains to whatever the hell is going on with Moe (and I'm a pretty big proponent of Moe being alive, so yeah).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 06, 2013, 03:30:21 am
You remain unconvinced even though the description of the Rimon looks a lot like the Cish quoted above it? Damn. Well you can't blame a fellow for trying. It was a loose connection anyway.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Francis Buck on December 06, 2013, 04:35:05 am
Ah! I missed that bit. Color me satisfied, then. Well, not ENTIRELY stupified, but I must certainly rethink my assumptions.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Francis Buck on December 06, 2013, 04:41:20 am
Fuck. Take note that I'm writing from kindle. It makes it very hard to be specific.

Soon I shall have a working computer, and then, you know, I'll be able to communicate like a normal person.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Callan S. on December 06, 2013, 09:01:11 am
Side point, but it'd suck if Cish get damned/put in the torture machine if they get salted - like suddenly the big robot brain running it suddenly recognises it (given they all die the same way to chorae) and goes 'HAE! HACKS! BAN HAMMER TO DAMNATION LAND 4 U!'

More on topic, Chorae seem to rip something out of sorcerers, I believe it's described as. It's possible the person went missing, physically, some time ago, in a way. What you're dealing with (or the scarlet spires is torturing) is like a mirror image.
Title: Re: Re: Sorcery
Post by: Madness on December 06, 2013, 12:11:07 pm
What makes the hand different than a rock in this situation? The Swayali cloth blocks chorae quite nicely, and Kellhus' little rock whirlwind in Shimeh kept him alive as well.

Is there a specific example of the Swayali cloth blocking chorae, and then what happens afterwards? I just recently re-read the Kellhus/whirlwind part, and it does say specifically that a chorae arrow glances off a rock, cracking the sorcery that bound it there.

Nothing explicit but...

Quote from: WLW, p543
With their billows, he [Kellhus] explained, the odds were good that any one Chorae strike could be survived, so long as someone uninjured could carry the one struck away from the Horde.

Quote
Proyas saw Kellhus jerk as the body tumbled down, realized he had caught a crossbow bolt fired from below. In a single snapping motion, he threw it like a knife at the nearest sorcerer-priest. There was a burst of incandescence rimmed by a nacre of black. The figure dropped.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02 04:00:00+00:00). The Thousandfold Thought (Kindle Locations 7630-7631). Overlook. Kindle Edition.
My bold. It would seem Moe's death wasn't unique.

EDIT:
The only other time the word nacre is used in TTT is from the POV of Eleäzaras:
Quote
There was a flash, white ringed with a nacre of black. One of their number, Rimon, plummeted to ground, where he shattered salt. The others ran across sky.

Bakker, R. Scott (2008-09-02 04:00:00+00:00). The Thousandfold Thought (Kindle Locations 6774-6776). Overlook. Kindle Edition. 
It seems that the Cish and the other schoolmen all die the same. I know this has been discussed before, but I don't know if anyone ever came to a conclusion.

There are three explicit instances of Cishaurim being hit by Chorae. Moenghus, the one Kellhus kills above, and the one Proyas kills before either. Both Proyas' and Kellhus' are described exactly the same - no Salt.

I actually thought it was a direct contrast between no Salt/no Nacre of Black, for awhile, and that Rimon quote still remains the only instance I can remember finding where a Schoolman has the nacre of black. [EDIT: Yeah, sorry, you said this lol...]

And, of course, his eyes flash with light, implying non-psukhe related sorcery.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Fuck. Take note that I'm writing from kindle. It makes it very hard to be specific.

Soon I shall have a working computer, and then, you know, I'll be able to communicate like a normal person.

Lol - how are you writing? On paper :o ;)?!
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 07, 2013, 02:12:45 am
Rimon is SS or Cish?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 07, 2013, 01:27:11 pm
Scarlet Spires, friend-o.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2013, 03:26:00 pm
It was from Eleäzaras' POV, so "one of their number" would be one of the SS.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 07, 2013, 11:44:19 pm
Ta.  So the bright flash and nacre of black is consistent, but still not sure if Cish turn to salt, yes?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 07, 2013, 11:55:47 pm
It seems that every time a schoolman dies, salt is specifically mentioned, except in the case of the Cish. They are still refereed to as "bodies" when they die so there is no proof positive (that I can remember) that they turn to salt. They are at least killed though.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Duskweaver on December 08, 2013, 01:50:45 pm
I seem to recall a description of a choraed Cishaurim as resembling a "sodden rag". That sounds like it's intended as an inversion of the salting (dessication?) of Schoolmen. :-\

As for how the Swayali billows work, it always seemed obvious to me that disenchanting something that is moving by sorcery would not eliminate the momentum that sorcery had already imparted to the object.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 08, 2013, 02:48:53 pm
Quote
Ta.  So the bright flash and nacre of black is consistent, but still not sure if Cish turn to salt, yes?

It seems that every time a schoolman dies, salt is specifically mentioned, except in the case of the Cish. They are still refereed to as "bodies" when they die so there is no proof positive (that I can remember) that they turn to salt. They are at least killed though.

I seem to recall a description of a choraed Cishaurim as resembling a "sodden rag". That sounds like it's intended as an inversion of the salting (dessication?) of Schoolmen. :-\

As for how the Swayali billows work, it always seemed obvious to me that disenchanting something that is moving by sorcery would not eliminate the momentum that sorcery had already imparted to the object.

I liken the Cishaurim's death to the Christian conception of Rapture. If Cishaurim are the Righteous and Chorae are actually Holy Objects that Mimara sees them to be, then Cishaurim, bodies and all, might just be subsumed into... wherever the true God resides.

Leaving behind neatly folded cassocks ;).

Also, Duskweaver, do you think that if a Chorae hits an animated billow that those sorcerers/sorceresses are affected beyond that billow tail being de-sorcerized momentarily?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 08, 2013, 06:03:42 pm
I'd say that the enchanted object, once struck, would have to be re-enchanted.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Duskweaver on December 09, 2013, 10:18:56 am
Also, Duskweaver, do you think that if a Chorae hits an animated billow that those sorcerers/sorceresses are affected beyond that billow tail being de-sorcerized momentarily?
Honestly, I think the whole idea of the billows would be pointless if intercepting/deflecting a chorae still resulted in the sorcerer or witch plummeting out of the sky. Being splattered all over the landscape doesn't seem much of an improvement over being salted.

But then there's that WLW quote:
Quote
With their billows, he [Kellhus] explained, the odds were good that any one Chorae strike could be survived, so long as someone uninjured could carry the one struck away from the Horde.
that implies they do still plummet and have to be [caught and] carried by one of their companions. The actual catching seems implausible to me unless the witches/sorcerers stick really close together in the air, which would surely make it impossible to actually flutter their billows around sufficiently to act as a screen.

So I dunno. Maybe it's like in a Roadrunner cartoon where you don't actually start falling until you've had time to hold up a little wooden sign saying 'Help!', and that gives your friends time to fly over and catch you? ::) :P
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 09, 2013, 03:28:25 pm
I'd say that the enchanted object, once struck, would have to be re-enchanted.

Indeed. I was more wondering if Duskweaver thought that Chorae hitting the billow would affect the sorcerer/sorceress beyond de-animating the object.

But then there's that WLW quote:
Quote
With their billows, he [Kellhus] explained, the odds were good that any one Chorae strike could be survived, so long as someone uninjured could carry the one struck away from the Horde.
that implies they do still plummet and have to be [caught and] carried by one of their companions. The actual catching seems implausible to me unless the witches/sorcerers stick really close together in the air, which would surely make it impossible to actually flutter their billows around sufficiently to act as a screen.

So I dunno. Maybe it's like in a Roadrunner cartoon where you don't actually start falling until you've had time to hold up a little wooden sign saying 'Help!', and that gives your friends time to fly over and catch you? ::) :P

Lol'd. "Catching" might reflect a sorcerous Cant? Though, Serwa does carry Sorweel in her arms. (We do have it from Inrau's perspective that sorcerous speed is a thing; might sorcerous strength be a thing as well?)
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2013, 04:35:19 pm
Body enchantment magics must exist!

Anyway, I think it would matter how close the chorae got. If a flying chorae arrow made a glancing blow and was mostly defected by the fabric of the dress, then the which would stay afloat. If the arrow was nearly a direct hit and the folds of the dress mostly just prevented the chorae from touching skin, then the which would surely fall.

BTW, chorae are not pointed, just round balls of metal attached to an arrow. Since the chroae need to make direct skin contact, it seems improbably that any schoolperson would take the field in anything less thick padding. Close contact to the chrorae would knock you out, but even an inch of insolation would surely save your life (based on Akka getting slammed in the face by Ironsoul's closed first around a chorae, causing pain and minor salting) ( that happened right??).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on December 09, 2013, 07:11:07 pm
when does Mimara get the chorae, in cil aujus or before?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on December 09, 2013, 07:36:00 pm
Pretty sure she gets it inside of Cil' Aujas. I believe it might have been when all the scalpers were looking at the Wracu skeleton. I seem to recall the text saying something like Mimara "already made her fortune" during that scene. Or, actually, right before then. She might have picked it up off the ground, on a whim, during the proceeding fight/flight.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 10, 2013, 01:10:36 pm
During the fight.

(based on Akka getting slammed in the face by Ironsoul's closed first around a chorae, causing pain and minor salting) ( that happened right??).

Quote from: TJE, p580
The rapid creature [Sranc] howls, punches Achamian with its free hand, the one cramped about the Trinket...

...

Chorae. Tear of God. Trinket...

It wrenches the eyes even to glance at it, to see both the plain iron ball tacked in Sranc blood and the pit that scries into oblivion. She clutches it, she who is not yet cursed, and presses it against her breast and bodice. Nausea wrings her like a wineskin. The vomit surpises her mouth, her teeth.

And then she gets knocked out... I always dislike superfluous knockouts in fiction, which don't result in any kind of cursory damage.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Duskweaver on December 10, 2013, 01:29:08 pm
"Catching" might reflect a sorcerous Cant?
That makes more sense. Not as entertaining, though.

Quote
Though, Serwa does carry Sorweel in her arms. (We do have it from Inrau's perspective that sorcerous speed is a thing; might sorcerous strength be a thing as well?)
I don't see why not. In that particular case, though, I think Serwa is just naturally pretty strong. Dunyain genes rather than magic.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 10, 2013, 01:40:42 pm
"Catching" might reflect a sorcerous Cant?
That makes more sense. Not as entertaining, though.

Lol. I'm stretching and, as much as I do it here, I dislike stretching where more words on an author's part could have just answered the question for us.

Quote
Though, Serwa does carry Sorweel in her arms. (We do have it from Inrau's perspective that sorcerous speed is a thing; might sorcerous strength be a thing as well?)
I don't see why not. In that particular case, though, I think Serwa is just naturally pretty strong. Dunyain genes rather than magic.

Truth. But we can still extend Inrau's evidence to the Few having magical rather than mundane limits of strength.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Callan S. on December 11, 2013, 09:42:06 am
Here's a question - if you cut off a bit of a sorcerer (even a lock of their hair, for example), remove it from the vecinity of the mage and apply a chorae to the sample, will it salt?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 11, 2013, 09:59:26 am
Perhaps a deflection would destroy the sorcerer's incipient wards.  A staggering blow, where they can still stay airborne but require shielding assistance to quit the field and regroup lest they be struck by regular weapons.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on December 11, 2013, 02:24:17 pm
Here's a question - if you cut off a bit of a sorcerer (even a lock of their hair, for example), remove it from the vecinity of the mage and apply a chorae to the sample, will it salt?

To drive into further needless questions...

1) If you cut the arm off a person with the Mark, and then hit it with a chorae... will the arm salt?  2) Will you see the Mark on the arm after it is cut off? 

3) What about the hair of a Marked man?  4) After he gets a haircut, will it have the Mark and/or be saltable?

I honestly doubt that these sorts of questions have any relevancy in the story and I don't think that Bakker has probably pondered the nuance... but still fun to question!

Measure is unceasing ;).

1 - 4: I think the Salting depends on the appendage remaining attached to the soul. So arm/hair would remained Marked, like other inert objects (Achamian mentions the trees carrying the Mark of his battles with Sranc around his tower long after they've ceased happening and Serwa remarks on the "Nameless Ruins" in Wilshire's Ch. 3 Excerpt summary carrying a "strange Mark"). The argument would be then that Marked inert objects don't react to the Chorae because it is not ensoulled.

Like...

I imagine touching a dismembered arm would not turn it to salt because the sorcerer's soul is no longer connected.

Touching a wathi doll might create a little pile of salt though.

+1.

...

Perhaps a deflection would destroy the sorcerer's incipient wards.  A staggering blow, where they can still stay airborne but require shielding assistance to quit the field and regroup lest they be struck by regular weapons.

Perhaps.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 14, 2013, 11:10:54 am
In TTT the ciphrang explode in showers of salt when they are hit by chorae.  Relevant?

I'm thinking it's how the soul leaves the body that creates the salt.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on December 15, 2013, 08:47:45 am
worth remembering the salting is just a side effect. and that they also effect cishaurim is a metaphysical quirk. iirc from CC on ZTS
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on December 16, 2013, 12:46:47 am
A side effect?  No.  I think dying is a side effect of turning to salt.   ;)

Seriously though, Cish produce a metaphysical bang and die too.

Enchanted items just lose their endowed properties. (wlw)

I think it's likely to do with the way marked souls go to the outside.  Logically, Cish must bear an invisible (inward) mark.  Their metaphysics are simply invisible to regular sorcerers.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on February 14, 2014, 10:36:46 am
This clears and complicates this conversation:

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi, Jul 2004
But remember, though a sorcerous wind would blow mundane shafts away, it would have no effect on bolts fixed with Chorae.

If one the other hand, a Schoolman were to cause a low pressure cell that subsequently unleashed winds... Since sorcery interacts with the real world, it produces real effects that Chorae are useless against.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 14, 2014, 01:39:17 pm
That makes plenty of sense and is kind of how I imagined it. You only need  one level of separation to circumvent the chorae's protection. (Akka bringing down the roof on the Javreh is the first example of this, I think)

I think the real complication here is, again, that the chorae cancels the affects of sorcery on the entire object that it is touching. For me, that brings about the problem of scope and distance. If a single chorae is dropped on the ground, why wouldn't all the ground be immune? One chorae embedded in a castle wall should make the whole fortress immune. One chorae in a Sarcophagus should render the whole shell immune.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on February 14, 2014, 03:30:51 pm
Mimara sheltering in Achamian's Wards? Sorweel in Eskeles'?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 14, 2014, 03:49:38 pm
Exactly, but with people, you have a soul to think about. The dimensions of a body/soul is more easily defined that inanimate objects like arrows or walls.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on February 14, 2014, 03:54:59 pm
Definite facepalm.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 14, 2014, 04:05:36 pm
Definite facepalm.
?

Anyway, with an arrow you have multiple components, wood and feathers at least, that are all protected by a single chorae. The incorporation of disparate items being included in the "protected entity" makes my brain unhappy. If wood and feathers, why not mortar and stones/bricks, or dirt/grass/rocks ad infinitum.

It obviously doesn't work like that, so then I guess I'm left with some kind of effective distance... but we have no way to measure it, so I'm still irritated.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on February 14, 2014, 04:06:57 pm
It obviously doesn't work like that, so then I guess I'm left with some kind of effective distance... but we have no way to measure it, so I'm still irritated.

^ This thought = facepalm ;).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on February 26, 2014, 12:16:26 am
@ Madness - Elsewhere you were comparing the chorae to a wathi doll and it got me thinking--are chorae full of souls?

@ greatbigsky - I thought the lack of armor would be due to the chorae's effect in spite of any covering.  You wear armor.  Someone nails your breastplate with a chorae-bolt.  You don't instantly die, but the trauma sends you plummeting to the ground where you do die.

You might as well just wear robes and if they keep you from instant death while allowing your mates to catch you, then the armor would just be unnecessary.

@ Francis Buck - the whole thing about chorae and distance really throws me off in the case of Kellhus.  He doesn't mind walking right into Sakarpus (even though that one mandati did).  Although I note that K catches Sorweel before he goes all the way into the citadel.  If Kellhus has figured out a way to negate chorae power, he'll want to save it for the right moment.  Let the Consult/Gods think they can bring him down that way.

@ Wilshire - You got me thinking about the incongruity of Golgotterath.  On the one hand it's supposed to be uber-topoi on the other, it's presumably where chorae are made and they are supposed to return the world to its normal shape.  ???

ALSO, "Kellhus was losing the battle with 4 Cish."  For shame Wilshire!  Kellhus weren't losing!  He was just posing to put them off their guard!!!  Easier to kill.

Yeah, I'd agree that if a chorae touched an enchanted object it would lose the enchantment…because it would lose the trapped soul and need a new one?

--------

I found it weird when Mimara recognized the chorae on the Captain.  Before that moment I did not know it was possible for one of the few who did not have sorcery to 'see' a chorae.  Do you think that this is more of her being special or can the college of luthimae see chorae too?  Kellhus' inner monologue mentions nothing special about the 'witch-stone' as far as I know.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 26, 2014, 02:27:08 am
I think chorae, since they are sorcerous artifacts, can be seen by all those that can see the Onta. Just like anyone can see a schoolman because of the mark, or recognize a battlefield scared by sorcery, I believe that they should be able to see the chorae. However, without proper training they might not know something was amiss. After all, Kellhus presumably could see the Onta for years before he left Ishual but never knew he was special until he became aware of the existence of sorcery.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on February 27, 2014, 06:46:01 pm
I found it weird when Mimara recognized the chorae on the Captain.  Before that moment I did not know it was possible for one of the few who did not have sorcery to 'see' a chorae.  Do you think that this is more of her being special or can the college of luthimae see chorae too?  Kellhus' inner monologue mentions nothing special about the 'witch-stone' as far as I know.

I think chorae, since they are sorcerous artifacts, can be seen by all those that can see the Onta. Just like anyone can see a schoolman because of the mark, or recognize a battlefield scared by sorcery, I believe that they should be able to see the chorae. However, without proper training they might not know something was amiss. After all, Kellhus presumably could see the Onta for years before he left Ishual but never knew he was special until he became aware of the existence of sorcery.

We don't get Kellhus' perspective in context - it's Cnaiur's POV both times Kellhus encounters or asks after Cnaiur's Chorae.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 27, 2014, 06:56:35 pm
Why bother asking about a rock if it wasn't somehow special. We know that he could see the mark of sorcery left by Mek, so he should have been aware of the onta well before he encountered Cnaiur.

I wonder how far North the Anarcane ground extends to the north....
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on February 27, 2014, 09:21:35 pm
What do y'all make of all that stuff about different choraes having different 'tastes'?  I think when Cnaiur holds one over Akka's chest at the end of TTT, Akka ponders it momentarily.  Any chance different trapped souls do that?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on February 28, 2014, 02:20:32 pm
Maybe the taste is simply subjective, and changes based on how damned you are.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Aural on March 15, 2014, 01:37:31 pm
Something from Threeseas I don't get,

Quote
The issue of the Chorae threshold is also broached in TWP. There is, however, a limited grey zone, consisting of arcane keys, ciphers, and so on, which one of the Few can utter without suffering the bruise or Mark of sorcery. It's the Mark that determines whom the Chorae can kill. If one of the Few can recognize you, then so can those accursed Trinkets.

Is this a continuity issue? Sounds like a Cishaurim should not be affected by Chorae.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on March 15, 2014, 02:09:18 pm
Cishaurim are the notable exception and Bakker has pointed out that the Psukhe is a special case, for whatever reasons.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 05:34:11 pm
Wondering if a sorcerer could develop a tolerance for chorae?  Was rereading WLW--that part with the captain holding the chorae just in front of cleric's face--it doesn't fit with that other comment from lord knows what book where someone is saying that some nonmen are so marked that they can't even be feet away from a chorae.

Kellhus seems to have no problems in Sakarpus.  I'm sure chorae tolerance is something that he and his father would have pondered/tested (at least on others).  Thinking about iocaine powder in Princess Bride!

Unrelated--would using a chorae be the preferred method to put down a senile and/or mad schoolman by his own school?  Some kind of ritual?  Could be how Iyokus gets his chanv--a secret too terrible, can only be handed down from addict to addict, executioner to executioner.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on March 15, 2014, 10:08:50 pm
Sorweel notes salting on Kellhus' hand at Sakarpus.

Was rereading WLW--that part with the captain holding the chorae just in front of cleric's face--it doesn't fit with that other comment from lord knows what book where someone is saying that some nonmen are so marked that they can't even be feet away from a chorae.

Curious about this as well - people have used this as argument that Cleric was not really Nil'giccas.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 15, 2014, 10:21:58 pm
Sorweel notes salting on Kellhus' hand at Sakarpus.

Was rereading WLW--that part with the captain holding the chorae just in front of cleric's face--it doesn't fit with that other comment from lord knows what book where someone is saying that some nonmen are so marked that they can't even be feet away from a chorae.

Curious about this as well - people have used this as argument that Cleric was not really Nil'giccas.

I missed the salting!  Will have to back and check it out.  Still wondering if K just keeps some salt up his sleeve to pretend he's vulnerable.  :)
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on March 16, 2014, 02:17:15 am
I long ago proposed the idea that salt is cleansing, and chorae sort of remove some of the stain of the mark.  but nothing seems to really support that idea.  but you couldn't remove much of the mark at a time, as it seems a close call converts the outer layer of skin to salt, and when it sloughs off, it leaves you with something like a sunburn.  and sorcerers are unlikely to take years off of practicing sorcery to unmark themselves millimeters at a time, suffering an eternal sunburn.  Nonmen might, though.

chemically I've tried pondering how it is that it's salt. The chorae is a catalyst for a chemical conversion or is a chorae a reagent?

I tend to think it's a catalyst, and that a chorae disrupts the chemical suspension of mark and marked.  The chorae causes the metaphysical mark to mix with the physical body, and the reaction results in salt.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on March 16, 2014, 10:46:04 am
I long ago proposed the idea that salt is cleansing, and chorae sort of remove some of the stain of the mark.  but nothing seems to really support that idea.  but you couldn't remove much of the mark at a time, as it seems a close call converts the outer layer of skin to salt, and when it sloughs off, it leaves you with something like a sunburn.  and sorcerers are unlikely to take years off of practicing sorcery to unmark themselves millimeters at a time, suffering an eternal sunburn.  Nonmen might, though.

chemically I've tried pondering how it is that it's salt. The chorae is a catalyst for a chemical conversion or is a chorae a reagent?

I tend to think it's a catalyst, and that a chorae disrupts the chemical suspension of mark and marked.  The chorae causes the metaphysical mark to mix with the physical body, and the reaction results in salt.

I really enjoy that this is pertinent to a series of fantasy books :).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 18, 2014, 04:07:50 pm
I'm still hoping that part of the No-God mechanism is to keep a marked soul in a constant, unending state of salt.  Right at the balance of salt/regeneration.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on March 18, 2014, 05:53:42 pm
actually, thinking about it last night. I think physical and metaphysical are the same state, not different states.  like oil and water are both liquids, but don't mix, physical and metaphysical are both part of the same 'chemical' state, but don't mix.  So to separate the two as different is the wrong perspective, yes they are different, but they are more or less equivalent if you look at them as belonging in the same category together, rather than in different categories.

Which brings you back to the circuit of watcher and watched.  physical and metaphysical.  They're not separate, they're the same.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on March 19, 2014, 02:18:17 pm

Kellhus seems to have no problems in Sakarpus.  I'm sure chorae tolerance is something that he and his father would have pondered/tested (at least on others).  Thinking about iocaine powder in Princess Bride!

Unrelated--would using a chorae be the preferred method to put down a senile and/or mad schoolman by his own school?  Some kind of ritual?  Could be how Iyokus gets his chanv--a secret too terrible, can only be handed down from addict to addict, executioner to executioner.

Iocaine powder! Colorless, tasteless, and dissolves instantly in water ;)

Where would the mark go once removed? Maybe the chorae itself stores it. Perhaps chorae become less effective over time. For example, the one that Mimara sees appears so holy because it hasn't absorbed much/any Blood of the Onta, but if she looked at some of they College of Lythyme's chorae, who probably use theirs quite often, its glow would appear stinted or discolored.

I'm tired of not know wtf chanv is!
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 04:49:25 pm
How about this: the Aporetics found that they could salt a sorcerer using the judging eye, then they took grains of it and encased them in little iron balls?  The process of killing quya to *make* chorae might fit with the sort of condemnation the Aporetics received.  It's taboo for the nonmen like cannabilism for humans.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on March 19, 2014, 04:57:13 pm
How about this: the Aporetics found that they could salt a sorcerer using the judging eye, then they took grains of it and encased them in little iron balls?  The process of killing quya to *make* chorae might fit with the sort of condemnation the Aporetics received.  It's taboo for the nonmen like cannabilism for humans.

Seems the Aporetics were banned from their art prior to chorae invention (from TTT glossary):

After the disaster of Pir Pahal, the Inchoroi had seduced the practitioners of the Aporos, who had been forbidden from pursuing their art. Poisoned by knowledge, they devised the first of the Chorae to render their masters immune to Cûnuroi magic.

So, chronologically, chorae were a relatively new application of the Aporos, and wouldn't have figured into the initial ban.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 05:05:24 pm
Oh yeah--stupid brain.  I hope we get some insight into pre-chorae aporetic stuff.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on March 19, 2014, 05:07:51 pm
Right?  I'm curious about this, as well.  What had they already done that was so deplorable that the nonmen, of all people, banned them?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Aural on March 19, 2014, 06:14:15 pm
They cheated?

If I understand correctly, Aporetic sorcery is only good for undoing the effects of other sorceries. So when used by an Aporetic it's no different from Chorae.

But I'm sure someone who knows better will correct me.  :)
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on March 19, 2014, 07:46:16 pm
Quya were probably ruling-class, and so wouldn't have their means of control threatened (as has been stated before by others).  But then, I've always thought that the Ishroi were the top of the nonman political pyramid (probably just my own false impression).  Regardless, I wonder how the quya (assumedly) enforced the ban if the Aporetics could just shrug off their sorcery.  Complicit with the ishroi as their enforcers, probably.  Rambling.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 19, 2014, 08:20:59 pm
Enforceable because the practice was in its infancy?  Is it possible that aporetic sorcery was made possible by the Ark's fall and then later came the seduction?  I hope Nin'janjin is mixed up in all of this.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on March 20, 2014, 01:51:32 am
or aporetics caused the ark's fall/attracted the attention of the inchoroi?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 20, 2014, 02:34:40 am
or aporetics caused the ark's fall/attracted the attention of the inchoroi?

WOW

The nonmen were right to condemn them
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on March 20, 2014, 03:59:01 pm
I think the Aporos could have been a school dedicated to wards and other similar anti-magic defenses. Effectively the same as using a chorae, but not necessarily the same, mean that there could have been many different side effects other than salting and no-magic objects.

They could have specialized in no-magic fields, like the Anarcane ground, and had many objects, such as armors and weapons, that protected from sorcery effects. The chorae could have either been the penultimate achievement, or simply a cog in the wheel.

Would the Aporeti be sanctioned by some diety, similarly to the Psuke?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Somnambulist on March 20, 2014, 04:08:26 pm
They could have specialized in no-magic fields, like the Anarcane ground, and had many objects, such as armors and weapons, that protected from sorcery effects. The chorae could have either been the penultimate achievement, or simply a cog in the wheel.

Maybe the Aporos isn't like anarcane ground, maybe that's what caused anarcane ground.  Like some nonmen detonated an aporetic bomb of sorts which killed the onta in that area, and subsequently got banned for it.  Has that been theorized before?  Kinda seems like it would have been, just don't remember.  I can't remember.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 20, 2014, 04:35:48 pm
I want to think that anarcane ground is not the same thing as whatever's in chorae/aporos.  I think the aporos is sorcery that negates sorcery, but anarcane is something else entirely that negates all sorcery whether gnostic or aporetic or anything.  I don't have it with me, but I think the TTT glossary says something about Atrithau being spared in the first apocalypse because of its ground--the No-God can't tread there insofar as it's an aporetic thing, or its clothes are aporetic.  Maybe Mog would have to walk around naked in Atrithau? 

Neat that the 2 northern cities that survived are exactly these two: one anarcane and one aporetic (chorae hoard).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on March 20, 2014, 09:27:48 pm
or aporetics caused the ark's fall/attracted the attention of the inchoroi?

All I can think of is Desmond and Lost.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on March 21, 2014, 05:18:30 am
well what if the aporetics were banned because they were attracting the attention of the god or gods?

meaning nonmen strive to hide their voices, worship the spaces between gods, never garner their attention.  What if atraithau was an aporetic experiment that allowed the god to dream lucidly and NOTICE the nonmen again?  if that were the case, the aporetics would be doing something extremely contrary to nonman culture and society and likely to be banned for it.

The ironic bit is, they could be on the right track and even doing something holy in seeking out god, unlike the damned other nonmen who seek to hide from god.

Tear of god has a sort of nonman poetic ring to it, and perhaps the chorae are armored orbs protecting an actual tear from a lucidly dreaming god. :-p
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on March 23, 2014, 01:14:57 am
well what if the aporetics were banned because they were attracting the attention of the god or gods?

meaning nonmen strive to hide their voices, worship the spaces between gods, never garner their attention.  What if atraithau was an aporetic experiment that allowed the god to dream lucidly and NOTICE the nonmen again?  if that were the case, the aporetics would be doing something extremely contrary to nonman culture and society and likely to be banned for it.

The ironic bit is, they could be on the right track and even doing something holy in seeking out god, unlike the damned other nonmen who seek to hide from god.

Tear of god has a sort of nonman poetic ring to it, and perhaps the chorae are armored orbs protecting an actual tear from a lucidly dreaming god. :-p

That's awesome.  Thousands of years ago, the first aporetic did his/her thing and it attracted the attention of the gods who flew across the universe to Earwa.  That planet the left was free from oppression even though it's inhabitants were still damned.  These people of this world strive in every way to recreate themselves and hunt down the gods, crashing their golden ark into the new divine homeworld.

That tears of god are literal tears of god, makes me think the nonmen have a very, very deep passage under Ishterebinth, leading all the way down to the face of god???
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on March 28, 2014, 07:21:42 pm
They could have specialized in no-magic fields, like the Anarcane ground, and had many objects, such as armors and weapons, that protected from sorcery effects. The chorae could have either been the penultimate achievement, or simply a cog in the wheel.

Maybe the Aporos isn't like anarcane ground, maybe that's what caused anarcane ground.  Like some nonmen detonated an aporetic bomb of sorts which killed the onta in that area, and subsequently got banned for it.  Has that been theorized before?  Kinda seems like it would have been, just don't remember.  I can't remember.

I think thats an original. Though, an aporatic bomb would forcefully mend/repair the Onta... anti-bomb.

The Anarcane ground is supposed to be where the god/gods dream most lucidly? So if that Ground here has some kind of cause/affect relationship with the Aporos, then it isn't a particularly large leap to suggest that Mr. No-God is the Aporos incarnate... Or that it would be if not for the Inchoroi and their brutalization of it and forcefully Frankenstein-ing it together.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on April 12, 2014, 11:26:42 pm
Quote
The Anarcane ground is supposed to be where the god/gods dream most lucidly?

That makes for a pretty cool binary: a person in the world dreams and they connect to the outsid, a person in the outside dreams and it does something to the world.  So dreaming is nothing more than connection between kinds of reality, both ways?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on April 22, 2014, 05:25:36 pm
Strange combination:

1) Akka tells Kellhus that he can say the Wathi Doll's name without being bruised and "still be able to handle trinkets without discomfort" possibly implying that some low level of being marked doesn't cause immediate death by salting, but only discomfort.

2) Titirga's mark is 'muted,' but his power is not.

SO, perhaps a character could mute their mark even more (while not decreasing power or are they are they inversely related?) AND be able to handle chorae with only minute amounts of discomfort.  If it's a principle of Earwa, I'm sure some Dunyain will achieve it.

Maybe this will be a bargaining chip at Ishterebinth.  Serwa will demonstrate how she can mute her mark and handle choraes.  Maybe Kellhus can do it for the Consult as a bargaining chip.  Mark On!  Mark Off!  The Clapper!
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Cüréthañ on April 22, 2014, 10:57:03 pm
Um, the Cish?  No Mark - still die to chorae though.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on April 23, 2014, 02:14:32 am
Um, the Cish?  No Mark - still die to chorae though.

goddamnit! i forgot, fuck  :(
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on April 23, 2014, 12:19:55 pm
Lmao. MG's imagination has runneth wild ;).
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on April 23, 2014, 08:01:25 pm
Wonder if Kellhus could develop an anti-chorae substance.  Something that undoes the negation of aporetic magic.  He could put on a whole suit of armor of the stuff, shield, and everything.  Every chorae that hits it turns into a little lump of salt.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on April 24, 2014, 02:27:12 pm
Under the Chorae section of Cu'jara's sayings, these two bits caught my eye:

Quote
The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Quote
The script inscribed across each embodies a contradiction that unravels the semantics of all known Cants - even those of the Aporos!

Strange, I assumed that the chorae contained something cool, like a special kind of soul, and that the inside was what did the work.  These quotes seem to say that it's the writing itself!  If so, perhaps Kellhus has unravelled this secret and can produce his own chorae or other choric objects.

Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Aural on April 24, 2014, 04:44:16 pm
Quote
The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Is this possible with other sorceries? I mean Gnostic Cants inscribed on scrolls and so on?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on April 24, 2014, 05:09:55 pm
I imagine that this is how sorcerous artifacts work (wathi doll, whores shell, kellhu's fire, etc.)

I just wonder the mechanics of infusing meaning into an object, via writing, using Earwa's magic metaphysics (i.e. utter + inutteral?)

I suppose we know that objects can be worked by magic, like placing wards in hallways or on walls, so its possible that objects might be "programed" via magic to do certain things (like cast spells when something moves within range?). Maybe the written words help reinforce the magic somehow, but it could be that magical properties could be infused within objects without any writing at all.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on April 25, 2014, 01:12:38 pm
Quote
The Chorae are each inscribed with metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances

Is this possible with other sorceries? I mean Gnostic Cants inscribed on scrolls and so on?

I don't know how they work but there certainly are other sorcerous objects? We're told a number of those are covered in sorcerous writing - they can't be aporic?

I imagine that this is how sorcerous artifacts work (wathi doll, whores shell, kellhu's fire, etc.)

I just wonder the mechanics of infusing meaning into an object, via writing, using Earwa's magic metaphysics (i.e. utter + inutteral?)

I suppose we know that objects can be worked by magic, like placing wards in hallways or on walls, so its possible that objects might be "programed" via magic to do certain things (like cast spells when something moves within range?). Maybe the written words help reinforce the magic somehow, but it could be that magical properties could be infused within objects without any writing at all.

It can't be how all of them work?

Maybe sorcerous objects with script imbuing them with sorcery don't have a Mark, whereas Wards, etc, sorcery overlaid onto physical objects do have a Mark... but then where do sorcerous objects with Animas fit in?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on July 03, 2014, 04:47:06 am
Wonder what a chorae does on anarcane ground?  Muted or amplified or neither?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on July 04, 2014, 05:41:03 pm
That is a good question. Can a schoolmen touch a Chorae there? If not, what makes the aporos immune to the anti-magic effect of that area. If so, then maybe it is the only place where the Chorae can be made, allowing a schoolman the ability to craft such an item without feeling its anarcana effects.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on July 04, 2014, 05:50:11 pm
Hadn't thought of that!  I guess that would mean that the original practitioners of the Aporos could have operated at Atrithau (or some other anarcane ground).  I hope to the gods that there is a hidden mansion there.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: geoffrobro on August 04, 2015, 11:13:05 pm


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."
 
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: H on August 05, 2015, 05:32:08 pm
Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

I disagree on the source of the word Aporos.  I think it comes from Aporia (ἀπορία: "impasse, difficulty of passing, lack of resources, puzzlement") which "denotes in philosophy a philosophical puzzle or state of puzzlement and in rhetoric a rhetorically useful expression of doubt."

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Chorae Hoard is how Sakarpus managed to survive the First Apocalypse. The No-God circumvented it, saving his limited sorcerous resources to overcome the South.

One of the ideas behind anarcane ground simply follows the notion that the boundaries between the World and the Outside are variable. Some, taking the distinction between wakefulness and dreams as their analogy, believe anarcane ground to be Holy ground - places where the God has, for whatever reason, focussed his attention - dreams lucidly - thus rendering the co-option of his Song by sorcery difficult if not impossible.

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
Good questions, all. Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

Quote from: Cu'jara Cinmoi
The Aporos is something I want to flesh out further in future books. The basic idea is this: the Quya first developed the Aporos in the prosecution of their own intercine wars, but it was quickly forbidden. The arrival of the Inchoroi allowed several renegade Quya to pursue their sorcerous interrogations, leading to the production of tens of thousands of Chorae, which were used throughout the Cuno-Inchoroi wars.

The Aporos possesses a contradictory, or negative, semantics, and as such is able only to undo the positive semantics of things like the Gnosis, Psukhe, Anagogis - even the Daimos. Aporetic Cants have no other effect. Salting is actually a kind of side effect. I would rather wait until TTT comes out before discussing the metaphysics - it has to do with the Mark.

I think the the root of all sorcery is semantics.  It has nothing really, at heart, to do with the God, the God is simply another layer of semantics set on top.  Kellhus' explanation in TTT is either him attributing things to the God, or is his attempt to mislead Akka (most probable). 

I think what a Chorae does is unravels meaning.  It is a paradox resolving paradox, which in-and-of itself is a paradox.  It is a sink of meaning; where language gives positive semantics, a Chorae has negative semantics.  It's nonsense, in the way which we fathom language, but in theory it could exist.  If words could build meaning, then they could also destroy it.

I think that's the crux of it, not the Mark.  In Earwa, the soul is the bearer of meaning, it is where what you have done is writ.  So, once the Chorae undoes that meaning, the soul (the Greek phrenes, that is, the breathe of life) is unraveled and so discorporated in the process.  The Mark only determines what happens to the body after.  For those who are Marked, the disagreement if the Onta causes the body to salt.  For Cishaurim, the soul simply exits and the body (who was not at odds with it) simply becomes one with the Onta.

I am definitely missing at least several somethings though.  Akka describes the presence of a Chorae as a "dip in the Onta."  So, perhaps it is that withdrawing of the Onta that is the real mechanism of it?  Since both types of sorcery rely upon the Onta to work, perhaps also a sorcerer's bodies do too?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: H on August 07, 2015, 11:47:03 am
I'm rereading WLW, because for some reason, it is the book I can recall the least of.

Akka says at one point:

Quote
Chorae only negated violations of the Real; they returned the world to its fundamental frame.

This is the first and only reference to The Real.  The world as experienced is The Real, the Onta is the anima?  So, what is the 'fundamental frame?'  If the Onta is not the fundimental frame, then what is?  I need to think more on this.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: H on August 20, 2015, 08:50:14 pm
More theory crafting.

Quote
The issue of the Chorae threshold is also broached in TWP. There is, however, a limited grey zone, consisting of arcane keys, ciphers, and so on, which one of the Few can utter without suffering the bruise or Mark of sorcery. It's the Mark that determines whom the Chorae can kill. If one of the Few can recognize you, then so can those accursed Trinkets...
---
They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise.

So, Chorae reconcile the paradox of the disagreement of the Real and the Onta, in other words the Mark. 

For Cishaurim, it is different though, contact with a Chorae produces "quick, soundless flashes, like tissue cast into flame."  I think this is because for a Cishaurim, their soul is one with the Onta, so to speak.  Akka explains to us that a Chorae is "a dip in the fabric of the onta" so when the Onta is pushed away fully, the soul is evacuated along with it.

Perhaps?

Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Simas Polchias on August 25, 2015, 12:19:11 am
I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

2) Chorae bowmenship could be a "proper" way of acting for bankrupted/dishonored nobles. No currency to pay the bills? Fornicated (refused to fornicate) with your uncle? Go field, shoot ainoni battlemages with your house relic, be a good boy and make Xerius III proud. That's like valyrian weapons in Ossos & Westeros; powerful houses rulers and top-ranked mercs/fighters are both counted as potential owners of such artifacts because of their similar place in the world.

3) Tricky arrows. Chorae on the tip; lots of sorcery on the shaft; something neat and paradoxial (like nonmen shield over the Ark) in between to connect shaft and tip without actual connection. Cunning thief wants to steal your fallen arrow? He will face an invisible arrow. With insanely-multiplicated weight. With a 2 meter-wide death field around shaft plus a little bubble of normal space around tip/chorae. No way he'll be able to see it, move or touch without being an owner of the second chorae. Oh, no. No. No death field and other stuff at all. Just a simple cant of compulsion: "Take me. Care about me. Return me to my owner. Btw, he's on 14 hours, 200 steps".

Eh. It seems my guesses evolve from simple to outrageous.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: locke on August 25, 2015, 03:29:59 am

I have an issue with the concept of chorae bowman, because in the beginning chorae are described as so valuable they can only be bought with the dowery of the merger of two major royal families (this is probably discussed in the Chorae thread). How can you equip an ARMY with weapons that alleged cost more than the entire income of the host, especially when each weapon gets only a single use... It seem to me that Sakarpus alone should be able to field such bowmen, with their chorae horde.

However, it does seem that every major contingent of the Inrithi army has at least one cabal of of these priceless bowman, and I'd guess that its someone's job to collect the arrows once loosed. Even still, the chance for theft would be so incredibly high, the fortune of kings laying all over the ground, that its hard to imagine any effective way of collecting them.

1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

2) Chorae bowmenship could be a "proper" way of acting for bankrupted/dishonored nobles. No currency to pay the bills? Fornicated (refused to fornicate) with your uncle? Go field, shoot ainoni battlemages with your house relic, be a good boy and make Xerius III proud. That's like valyrian weapons in Ossos & Westeros; powerful houses rulers and top-ranked mercs/fighters are both counted as potential owners of such artifacts because of their similar place in the world.

3) Tricky arrows. Chorae on the tip; lots of sorcery on the shaft; something neat and paradoxial (like nonmen shield over the Ark) in between to connect shaft and tip without actual connection. Cunning thief wants to steal your fallen arrow? He will face an invisible arrow. With insanely-multiplicated weight. With a 2 meter-wide death field around shaft plus a little bubble of normal space around tip/chorae. No way he'll be able to see it, move or touch without being an owner of the second chorae. Oh, no. No. No death field and other stuff at all. Just a simple cant of compulsion: "Take me. Care about me. Return me to my owner. Btw, he's on 14 hours, 200 steps".

Eh. It seems my guesses evolve from simple to outrageous.
to 1 I would say there are very few but they're camouflaged in a large group of "chorae bowmen" so attacks on the group are less likely to take out the talent.  You'd also use the crowd bowmen to range a target for the sniper and potentially hide a needle in the sheaf of arrows. Flying in every volley.  All arrows in the cohort would have faux chorae weights for obvious tactical and accuracy reasons.  You could use active competition in the cohort to keep your handful of bowmen sharp, given they may never loose a chorae shaft in their entire career.


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Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on August 25, 2015, 01:39:57 pm
1) Do we have the exact number of chorae bowmen? If there any possilibity that's an umbrella term, where you can find one bowman, dozens of his bodyguards and one pet/collared adept from College of Luthimae (for detecting Marked threats and tracking that precious arrow)?

to 1 I would say there are very few but they're camouflaged in a large group of "chorae bowmen" so attacks on the group are less likely to take out the talent.  You'd also use the crowd bowmen to range a target for the sniper and potentially hide a needle in the sheaf of arrows. Flying in every volley.  All arrows in the cohort would have faux chorae weights for obvious tactical and accuracy reasons.  You could use active competition in the cohort to keep your handful of bowmen sharp, given they may never loose a chorae shaft in their entire career.

I like the above. Makes the chorae bowmen cadre seem way more reasonable. Still terribly expensive, but considering the 'value' of taking out an enemy sorcerer it may be worth doing something like this.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on August 28, 2015, 12:22:58 am


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

Are Chorae Mini Versions of a perfect No-God? Do Chorae suck the very soul from Sorcerers leaving the dry husk of a body?
Im thinking the Inchoroi and the Aporos Quya made Chorae, told humans they were "godly" when they were just sole sucking grenades with a immune buff.
Centuries later The Consult (Humans and the Twins) try to make a Big Chorae or some device that the maybe does the same thing but as a storing device. Failing they ducted taped a couple Chorae on the Carapace, dusted theirs hands off and said "Good enough."
 

i like this--maybe opens the possibility that some chorae become more powerful over time because of trapping many sorcerers?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Wilshire on August 28, 2015, 04:29:37 pm
Re Choric script.
Not if moe was inside the frame writ by the Choric script, inside the barricades so to speak.  Alternatively, not if kellhus never had dreams, his whelming just included to post hypnotic suggestion he'd had dreams and the accompanying stories he believes were all just part of his whelming before being released.  Kellhus didn't have to have dreams, he just had to believe he'd had dreams.


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This made me wonder, if you could make a chorae of any size, what would the inside of a building-sized chorae-sphere be like? Would the entire area be  essentially anarcane ground? Or, would just the material the script was written on have the sorcery canceled effect, but one could still practice sorcery within it.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on October 06, 2015, 02:30:40 pm
If Sarkapus really did survive the first apocalypse because of the chorae hoard, then maybe Kellhus raided it to make a refuge elsewhere. Ishual?
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: MSJ on October 06, 2015, 03:17:25 pm
I never thought about that. I think it'll be more likely that we'll see them with the GO in a military capacity, though.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: mrganondorf on October 06, 2015, 07:54:48 pm
I never thought about that. I think it'll be more likely that we'll see them with the GO in a military capacity, though.

me too, but the idea of dumping the biggest pile at one spot on the map has got to do something ...

something something Atrithau is anarcane because the God dreams about it particularly --> Kellhus is going to take all of the chorae from the 3 seas, all of the chorae from horseburg, and all of the chorae from the ark and dump them at X

now God will be forced to look at X and that is where Mimara is going to give birth.  it's part of an elaborate voyeur scheme: Kellhus wants to watch God watch Mimara give birth to Cujara Cinmoi/Mog/T-1000 hybrid
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: sologdin on August 08, 2017, 12:13:02 am


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

kickass. the relevant greek terms here are chorismos ('separation') and choris ('separate,' 'apart,' and--in some translations, 'outside').  these underlying greek significances suggest that the 'tear' in 'tear of god' is less about lachrymation than laceration.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: H on August 08, 2017, 10:08:15 am


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

kickass. the relevant greek terms here are chorismos ('separation') and choris ('separate,' 'apart,' and--in some translations, 'outside').  these underlying greek significances suggest that the 'tear' in 'tear of god' is less about lachrymation than laceration.

Whoa, a Solo sighting!

Good point too, of course, I always enjoy needing a dictionary to read your posts.
Title: Re: Chorae
Post by: Madness on August 08, 2017, 01:03:33 pm


Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

kickass. the relevant greek terms here are chorismos ('separation') and choris ('separate,' 'apart,' and--in some translations, 'outside').  these underlying greek significances suggest that the 'tear' in 'tear of god' is less about lachrymation than laceration.



Chorae: the wiki says "they belong to lost branch of sorcery called the Aporos."  The branches of sorcery all take their names from Greek words. “Aporos” comes from the Greek word “Άπορος,” meaning “Destitute.” des·ti·tute- without the basic necessities of life.

kickass. the relevant greek terms here are chorismos ('separation') and choris ('separate,' 'apart,' and--in some translations, 'outside').  these underlying greek significances suggest that the 'tear' in 'tear of god' is less about lachrymation than laceration.

Whoa, a Solo sighting!

Good point too, of course, I always enjoy needing a dictionary to read your posts.

SOLO :D!