The Second Apocalypse

Earwa => The Prince of Nothing => The Almanac: PON Edition => Topic started by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:53:41 am

Title: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:53:41 am
Quote from: Madness
Good morning from sunny Canada. I should be posting later this morning, probably over breakfast, before my day gets crazy again. Damned vacations. Post away, boys and girls...
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:54:04 am
Quote from: Tony P
These are the quotes at the start of chapter one:

There are three, and only three, kinds of men in the World: cynics, fanatics and Mandate Schoolmen.
- Ontillas, On the Folly of Men

The author has often observed that in the genesis of great events, men generally possess no inkling of what their actions portend. This problem is not, as one might suppose, a result of men’s blindness to the consequences of their actions. Rather it is a result of the mad way the dreadful turns on the trivial when the ends of one man cross the ends of another. The Schoolmen of the Scarlet Spires have an old saying: “When one man chases a hare, he finds a hare. But when many men chase a hare, they find a dragon.” In the prosecution of competing human interests, the result is always unknown, an all too often terrifying.”
- Drusas Achamain, Compendium of the First Holy War



Drusas Achamian (Akka), a gnostic sorcerer and Mandate Schoolman is in Carythusal, in the part of town known as The Worm; he’s meeting Geshrunni, a captain in the javreh, the slave-soldiers of the Scarlet Spires. This chapter gives us a lot of introduction on the political side of sorcery: sorcerers are called Schoolmen, and the Scarlet Spires is the most powerful school. It virtually controls High Ainon. Akka is part of the School of Mandate, founded by Seswatha, a gnostic sorcerer from the legendary School of Sohonc, back in the time of the First Apocalypse. Gnostic sorcery is the sorcery of the Ancient North, the Kuniüric nations that were destroyed during the First Apocalypse. This sorcery is more powerful than the sorcery of the other schools, as Akka admits that it’s the only reason the Mandate is taken somewhat seriously. The Mandate is hampered because it’s foe, the Consult, hasn’t been seen in over three hundred years, making their warnings against them seem silly. Yet they can’t help themselves, because of Seswatha’s mission: Seswatha knew that, over time, the terrors of the First Apocalypse would fade, so he has made it so that all Mandate Schoolmen relive parts of his life (from Seswatha pov) in their dreams. In this chapter, Akka himself dreams the dream of Anasurimbor Celmomas II’s death. Seswatha was the driving force behind the war against the Consult, who were responsible for the No-God, though this isn’t explained in depth in this chapter.

As Celmomas is dying, he tells Seswatha:

“The darkness of the No-God is not all-encompassing. The Gods see us yet, dear friend. They are distant, but I can hear them galloping across the skies. I can hear them cry out to me.”
“You cannot die, Celmomas! You must not die!”
The High King shook his head, stilled him with tender eyes. “They call to me. They say that my end is not the world’s end. That burden, they say, is yours. Yours, Seswatha.” [/quote]

Celmomas tells Seswatha his son is waiting for him, and he “tells him such sweet things to give me comfort. He says that one of my seed will return, Seswatha-an Anasurimbor will return… At the end of the world.”


For those who have read The Judging Eye and The White Luck Warrior:

(click to show/hide)

Mandate Schoolmen have recurring nightmares, but Akka notes that this time, the dream of Celmomas’ death is more powerful than usual. Even though better scholars than him have made entire studies of the dreams, Akka stubbornly keeps his own records about the dreams, in an attempt to analyse them.

As Akka wakes from this dream, he “drew his hands to his face and wept, a short time for a long-dead Kuniüric King and longer for other, less certain things.” Akka has suffered in life, but he’s a man of sensibility.


Geshrunni knows that Akka is a Mandate Schoolman, and he uses a Chorae to make Akka admit the truth. Chorea, Tears of God, are not found in creation but apparently manufactured, are a deathly threat to sorcerers, but harmless to everyone else:

Quote
“Chorae. Schoolmen called them Trinkets. Small names are often given to horrifying things. But for other men, those who followed the Thousand Temples in condemning sorcery as blasphemy, they were called the Tears of God. But the God had no hand in their manufacture. Chorae were relics of the Ancient North, so valuable that only the marriage of heirs, murder, or the tribute of entire nations could purchase them. They were worth the price: Chorae rendered their bearers immune to sorcery and killed any sorcerer unfortunate enough to touch them.”

Geshrunni hates his masters, and agrees to inform Akka. He tells Akka a valuable secret: the Scarlet Spires’ former grand master, Sasheoka, was assassinated by the Cishaurim (the sorcerers of the nation of Kian to the south) in the inner sanctums of the Scarlet Spires themselves. Akka calls the Chishaurim “the only heathen school”; the Kianene apparently don’t follow The God or the Thousand Temples.

Quote
There was a saying common to the Three Seas: “Only the Few can see the Few.” Sorcery was violent. To speak it was to cut the world as surely as if with a knife. But only the Few -sorcerers- could see the mutilation, and only they could see, moreover, the blood on the hands of the mutilator-the “mark,” as it was called. Only the Few could see another and another’s crimes. And when they met, they recognized one another as surely as common men recognized criminals by their lack of a nose.
Not so with the Cishaurim. No one knew why or how, but they worked events as grand and devastating as any sorcery without marking the world or bearing the mark of their crime. Only once had Achamian witnessed Cishaurim sorcery, what they called the Psûkhe-on a night long ago in distant Shimeh. With the Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, he’d destroyed his saffron-robed assailants, but as he sheltered behind his Wards, it had seemed as though he watched flashes of soundless lightning. No thunder. No mark.
Only the Few could see the Few, but no one-no Schoolman at least-could distinguish the Cishaurim or their works from common men or the common world. And it was this, Achamian surmised, that had allowed them to assassinate Sasheoka. The Scarlet Spires possessed Wards for sorcerers, slave-soldiers like Geshrunni for men bearing Chorae, but they had nothing to protect against sorcerers indistinguishable from common men, or against sorcery indistinguishable from the God’s own world. Hounds, Geshrunni would tell him, now ran freely through the halls of the Scarlet Spires, traind to smell the saffron and henna the Cishaurim used to dye their robes.
But why? What could induce the Cishaurim to wage open war against the Scarlet Spires? As alien as their metaphysics were, they could have no hope of winning such a war. The Scarlet Spires were simply too powerful.

Later, Geshrunni is attacked by someone who was in the background when he met Akka. Since he himself is a warrior, and larger than the man, he sees no reason to worry, but the man is incredibly strong. Geshrunni fears his masters are on to him, but the man is not touched by Geshrunni’s Chorae, so he’s not a sorcerer.

Quote
“Who are you?” Geshrunni asked.
“Nothing you could understand, slave.”

“Who are you?” Geshrunni grated. “How long have you been watching me?”
Watching you?” The fat man almost giggled. “Such conceit is unbecoming of slaves.”
He watches Achamian? What is this? Geshrunni was an officer, accustomed to cowing men in the menacing intimacy of a face-to-face confrontation. Not this man. Soft or not, he was at utter ease. Geshrunni could feel it. And if it weren’t for the unwatered wine, he would have been terrified.

Stunned, Geshrunni looked down at his senseless hand, watched his knife flop on to the dust. All he’d heard was the snap of the stranger’s sleeve.

“What a task we’ve set for ourselves,” the stranger said ruefully, following him, “when even their slaves possess such pride.”
Panicked, Geshrunni fumbled for the hilt of his sword.
The fat man paused, his eyes flashing to the pommel.
“Draw it,” he said, his voice impossibly cold-inhuman.
Wide-eyed, Geshrunni froze, transfixed by the silhouette that loomed before him.
“I said draw it!”
Geshrunni hesitated.
The next slap knocked him to his knees.
“What are you?” Geshrunni cried through bloodied lips.
As the shadow of the fat man encompassed him, Geshrunni watched his round face loosen, then flex as tight as a beggar’s hand about copper. Sorcery! But how could it be? He holds a Chorae-
“Something impossibly ancient,” the abomination said softly. “Inconceivably beautiful.”

As Akka informs his masters about his valuable informant, he is called back to his headquarters, at Atyersus, where the Mandate has its School and fortress.[/quote]
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:54:43 am
Quote from: lockesnow
A couple of thoughts on this chapter.

I'm fairly certain that Akka has this dream repeat--almost word for word, if not an exact copy--just before he meets Kellhus later on in this book, or just after.  One thing this reread should do is a close comparison of the two iterations of the dream in this book--As Celmomas tells Seswatha about the sun, so much is hidden in simple things.

Also note that the very first dream we're privy too has Akka notating that his dreams have changed.  He also had two more dreams before the prophecy dream, and in one notes he sees his own face in the mirror, intriguing.

The other thing I noted is that Akka is a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad narrator, in that he's unreliable, from just about the very first second we meet him he's making assumptions and jumping to conclusions that are ridiculously biased and often hopelessly wrong.  Bakker hides this well because he knows the first biased conclusions Akka makes in this chapter are intimately shared by most of the fans of epic fantasy--that jocks are stupid and dumb and far inferior to someone 'smart,' 'nerdy,' 'educated,' or 'bookish.'  In this way Bakker ropes the vast majority of the likely reading audience into not only sympathizing with Akka (because they share his prejudices), but into also being complicit in making the same mistakes and in dismissing the failings and weaknesses as though they were one's own.  It's a tricky, and fascinating, bit of writing and means that the audience is perfectly primed to overlook all of Akka's other perception failures.

Also, the last line of section 1.1 has Akka identify himself as a whore twice: because spies are whores, and sorcerers are whores.  many chapters before Esmenet enters the picture, we get our first whore of the book. ;)  Such a misogynist this author, calling men--and his hero--a whore.

I want to do much more detailed breakdowns of the prologue and chapter one, but birthdays and going out of town will delay that for a while.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:56:15 am
Quote from: Madness
Nice, Tony. I have some observations, which resonate with your own.

I had plodded through a very thorough piece for this chapter and after three hours of writing on Monday morning at my buddy's house then forgot about automatic logins and timeouts on forums. Lost to the Netherworld.

Since there's only this afternoon and tomorrow for the reread - though obviously, continue your speculations as they've happened in TDTCB, PRLG - I thought I'd try this again and just post my notes without as much embellishment, though that helped exposition in my first writing. I just intend on keeping up on our time-frame. Its also good practice for school.

Carythusal

The author has often observed that in the genesis of great events, men generally possess no inkling of what their actions portend. This problem is not, as one might suppose, a result of men's blindness to the consequences of their actions. Rather it is the result of the mad way the dreadful turns on the trivial when the ends of one man cross the ends of another. The Schoolmen of the Scarlet Spires have an old saying: "When one man chases a hare, he finds a hare But when many men chase a hare, they find a dragon." In the prosecution of competing human interests, the result is always unknown, and all too often terrifying.

- DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Midwinter, 4110 Year-of-the-Tusk, Carythusal

Right from the get-go, the Compendium, that so far includes two epigraphs of TDTCB, seems to be a retrospective chronicle. Drusas Achamian, arguably the Achamian from Ch. 1, talks about survivors writing the conclusions to histories.

Also, I found myself making up little titles for the passages as lockesnow suggested, however, mine seem to reflect themes, motifs, or metaphors/analogies, which were developed in each passage.

§1.1 Spies & Sorcerers

This really seemed to reflect Tony's idea about introducing sorcery, it's place in the Three Seas individually and politically, some things about the secular institutions and their relationships.

- There's the division of Schools, sorcerers as Schoolmen (p38-39).
- Chorae & Trinkets - the Tears of God - "rendered their bearers immune to sorcery and killed any sorcerer unfortunate enough to touch them ... encased in the cursive script of the Nonmen ... Death to all blashphemers" (p40-41)

There's a really interesting reflection by Geshrunni, Captain of the Jevrah, also known as "the common man," that he wants "what all men want, Akka. Truth" (p41) followed by an analogy concerning Schoolmen and the Truth.

We also learn that only sorcerers can see sorcerers, though that isn't explicitly defined until §1.2.

§1.2 The Scarlet Massacre

As Achamian leaves the Worm, Bakker uses his reflection to throw us some of his world's Pronouns. You may peruse at your leisure p43-44, I don't have the time to do the extensive listing I'd done in my last post.

He sets up for an interesting dichotomy between holy vs. unholy on p43 and reflects that all men simply versions of each other because "avarice, it seemed to him, was the world's only dimension" (p44).

We learn of ongoing antagonism between the Scarlet Spires & the Cishaurim, "the only heathen School" (p46).

As Tony points out above, Bakker spends some time highlighting the unexplained nature of the Cishaurim sorcery.

"Only the Few could see the Few, but no one - no Schoolman, at least-could distinguish the Cishaurim or their works from common men or the common world. And it was this, Achamian surmised, that had allowed them to assassinate Sasheoka. The Scarlet Spires possessed Wards for sorcerers, slave-soldiers like Geshrunni for men bearing Chorae, but they had nothing to protect against sorcerers indistinguishable from common men, or against sorcery indistinguishable from the God’s own world" (p47)

This part seems most important to me, as it is something Bakker repeats.

(click to show/hide)

§1.3 The Watcher

Some power, unaffected by Chorae, "the stranger picked the Trinket from the air as though it had been tossed for his friend perusal" (p49) and not quite natural, as Geshrunni watches "his round face loosen, then flex as tight as a beggar's hand about copper ... "Something impossibly ancient" (p51), is keeping tabs on Achamian.

§1.4 Seswatha & the Anasurimbor Celmomas

We're introduced to the Mandate's founder, who lived during the wars against the No-God. Apparently, the Mandate Schoolmen dream his life.

Celmomas is referred to as both the last High King of Kuniuri (p51) and the last Anasurimbor King (p52). As we're given no indication of the actual date of the dream, we cannot decide how Celmomas relates to the High King Anasurimbor Ganrelka from the Prologue.

Achamian makes multiple comparisons between himself and Seswatha, the Mandate's founder, and as Tony says Bakker seems to evoke a sense Achamian's low self-esteem a number of times in the chapter.

About just over half of §1.4 is devoted to Anasurimbor Celmomas' last words so I'd hazard importance. The difference in the High King's character is noted on p52, the Gods telling Celmomas that the end of the world is Seswatha's burden, and that Celmomas' dead son tells Celmomas that "An Anasurimbor will return at the end of the world" (p53). I actually call into question the truth of the Bastard Anasurimbor's heritage at this point.

Otherwise, arguably, Anasurimbor Kellhus is "returning to the world" and his Father already did thirty years ago.

§1.5 Faceless Geshrunni

We're given another quick perspective from Geshrunni, now sans face, being dragged through the streets of Carythusal by the stranger he's now referring to as the thing (p54). Also, the thing explicitly admits that it is watching Achamian because he is a Mandate Schoolman.

§1.6 The Call to Arms

Achamian wakes from his nightmares and begins chronicling Seswatha's Dreams because this is something some Mandate Schoolmen do.

(click to show/hide)

He notes again his low self-esteem and that Seswatha "passed not from but into his followers. By reincarnating his harrowing life in their dreams, he had made his legacy a never-ending call to arms" (p57).

As Tony noted, the Mandate has warred without a foe for three hundred years p58, while being the laughingstock of Three Seas politi, despite the Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North.

Achamian tries to reassure Geshrunni by runner, that the warrior-slave still has allies in the Mandate, after Achamian himself is called home by the Mandate.

Yet Faceless Geshrunni lies dead in the River Sayut...
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:56:29 am
Quote from: generic
One minor thing that jumped out at me is that Akka is absolutely convinced that the Spire will wipe the floor with the Cish even after he learned that they pulled something off he previously considered unthinkable. And he seems to know very little about them. Why the confidence?
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:56:38 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote
I had plodded through a very thorough piece for this chapter and after three hours of writing on Monday morning at my buddy's house then forgot about automatic logins and timeouts on forums. Lost to the Netherworld.
Oh god, sorry man! I know how that feels!

lockesnow: What did Achamian predict? Okay, I'll admit I'm following along these posts - haven't busted out the books again?

"You know spies.. bunch of whiny little bitches!"
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:56:53 am
Quote from: Tony P
Madness:
Sucks about losing your drafted post... Good points about Geshrunni's face and Akka's face in Seswatha's dreams. I noted them while reading, but couldn't remember them when writing my post.

Quote from: generic
One minor thing that jumped out at me is that Akka is absolutely convinced that the Spire will wipe the floor with the Cish even after he learned that they pulled something off he previously considered unthinkable. And he seems to know very little about them. Why the confidence?

I assume because Akka has torn a few Cishaurim down, enabling him to realistically assess their power, and because the Scarlet Spires are simply that powerful. There could be an element of Akka favouring what he knows best, and he is quite familiar with the reach of the SS thanks to being stationed in Carythusal and his work as a sorcerer and spy for so long.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:57:09 am
Quote from: Madness
No worries, thanks for the condolences. Brushed it off my shoulder day of and if I haven't learned my lesson, it'll happen again lol.

I'm not sure I was trying to make comparison between Geshrunni and Achamian's Dream as much as:

(click to show/hide)

Achamian clearly spends some time ruminating about the Scarlet Spires preeminence as a School within the Three Seas. He also suggests that the Cishaurim's sorcery is almost equal to any other sorcery, excepting - the pretty big deal - that no Schoolman - also said explicitly in the quotes Tony and I used above - can see the Cishaurim as the Few.

Any idea what gave you that feel initially, generic?
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:57:53 am
Quote from: Tony P
Quote from: Madness
I'm not sure I was trying to make comparison between Geshrunni and Achamian's Dream as much as:

(click to show/hide)

I know, I wasn't trying to link the separate points ;)

Spoilers for The Judging Eye:
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 03:58:05 am
Quote from: Madness
Lol, of course, this is the inherent risk of spoiler tags beyond the thread title.

For brevity, however:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:03:14 am
Quote from: generic
Quote from: Madness

Any idea what gave you that feel initially, generic?
On p48 in the Uk edition:

Quote
But why? What could induce the Cishaurim to wage open war against the Scarlet Spires? As alien as their metaphysics were, they could have no hope of winning such a war. The Scarlet Spires was simply too powerful.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:05:49 am
Quote from: Madness
I internalized that as ignorance. Achamian could hold the conceit for a variety of reasons. It sounded to me, though, that Achamian doesn't know enough about the Cishaurim and fears the Spires to an extent. Clearly, Achamian's perspective colours our perspective.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:06:00 am
Quote from: bbaztek
I'm afraid I don't have TDTCB on hand right now, so I have to ask here: why does Aurang kill Geshrunni? On my first read I thought his killer was the Nonman/Mek that Kellhus encountered in the prologue but now I realize there's no way Mek could have crossed such a large distance in so short a time for no apparent reason.

edit: Loving the discussion on this board btw!
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:06:12 am
Quote from: Madness
Welcome bbaztek.

As I said in the spoiler tags, §1.3 and §1.5 always gave me trouble because it doesn't even really fit canonical descriptions of spoilers.

I'm wondering where you've read so far as I think, ultimately, it should be obvious the stranger's identity.

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:06:26 am
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Madness
Welcome bbaztek.

As I said in the spoiler tags, §1.3 and §1.5 always gave me trouble because it doesn't even really fit canonical descriptions of spoilers.

I'm wondering where you've read so far as I think, ultimately, it should be obvious the stranger's identity.

(click to show/hide)

Thank you. Now, to play it safe,

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:06:36 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Re: Judging eye stuff
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:06:47 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
I internalized that as ignorance. Achamian could hold the conceit for a variety of reasons. It sounded to me, though, that Achamian doesn't know enough about the Cishaurim and fears the Spires to an extent. Clearly, Achamian's perspective colours our perspective.
Isn't it classic genre though? "But it can't be done!" "Ah, but they have the McGuffin, so it can be done!" "Ohs noes!"
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:07:12 am
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: Madness
I internalized that as ignorance. Achamian could hold the conceit for a variety of reasons. It sounded to me, though, that Achamian doesn't know enough about the Cishaurim and fears the Spires to an extent. Clearly, Achamian's perspective colours our perspective.
Isn't it classic genre though? "But it can't be done!" "Ah, but they have the McGuffin, so it can be done!" "Ohs noes!"

It would have not have served the first-time reader well for Bakker to have gone into detail about the precise power levels of the various Schools and how they stack up so early. Establishing the Spires as a dominant political force in the Three Seas waging a secret war against a smaller, more alien School that succeeds through stealth is comfy and familiar to genre readers, and I don't think we are supposed to ponder Achamian's ignorance or cast him as an unreliable narrator from the get-go.

First trilogy spoilers:
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:07:27 am
Quote from: sologdin
chapter 1 is doubly epigraphed:  first, a taxonomy, now breaking out the “men regret” item from the first taxonomy into cynics, fanatics, and mandati. 

the text will lay out appropriate language regarding the mandati, and, without spoilering, the fact that there is a primary text involving a holy war should outline fanaticism.  I confine myself therefore to cynicism, and rely principally on mr. sloterdijk:

Quote
Cynicism is enlightened false consciousness.  It is that modernized, unhappy consciousness, on which enlightenment has labored both successfully and in vain.  It has learned its lessons in enlightenment, but it has not, and probably was not able to, put them into practice.  Well-off and miserable at the same time, this consciousness no longer feels affected by any critique of ideology; its falseness is already reflexively buffered.
(critique of cynical reason (1987) at 5).  it is

Quote
an uneasiness that sees the modern world steeped in cultural insanities, false hopes and their disappointment, in the progress of madness and the suspension of reason, in the deep schism that runs through modern consciousness and that seems to separate the rational and the real, what we know and what we do, from each other for all time.  […] the perversely complicated structures of a consciousness that has become reflective and is almost more melancholy than false; it is a consciousness that, under the compulsions of self-preservation, continues to run itself, though run down, in a permanent moral self-denial.
(sloterdijk at 217). we might note this for now and track it through the novel.

the second epigraph, again the DA compendium, lays out DA’s theory of history: at the “genesis,” the arche, human persons are unable to know future consequences, and invokes the “trivial” as the engine of history.  this invocation is not explained, and instead we get the non sequitur of one persons chasing a hare finds a hare, but many persons chasing a hare find a dragon.  the conclusion:  “In the prosecution of competing human interests, the result is always unknown, and all too often terrifying.”  (I.i at 32).  That DA has just now laid down a rule of history in predicting consequences (one man finds a hare, many men find a dragon) contradicts and erases the principle that consequences are not knowable at the arche--unless he is not described as part of “men.” 

Several notes otherwise--

we see immediately that DA plays a “game” with his intelligence assets.  (I.i at 32).  we note this for now to recover it later.

we see a tavern owner boast of “authentic imitations” (I.i at 33)--alleged original copies.  we note this also, perhaps for later comment.

we note that DA feels “an absence” “tug at his bowels” (I.i at 36), for later, also.

we note the “mark” of sorcery (I.i at 42).

we see that “ink might be immortal, but meaning is not” (I.i at 51), tying nicely into prior comments on the prologue, regarding writing as wall against the forgotten while also itself a forgetting.  the sentiment quoted is lifted slyly from walter miller, incidentally:

Quote
Not only did the original copies fade, but often the redrawn versions became nearly illegible after a time, due to the impermanence of the inks employed.
(canticle for leibowitz (1959) at 75).  this is pronouncement is later expanded, however:

Quote
The Memorabilia was full of ancient words, ancient formulae, ancient reflections of meaning, detached from minds that had died long ago, when a different sort of society had passed into oblivion.  There was little of it that could still be understood.
(miller at 146).  not only the signifier deteriorates through time, but its linkage to a signified degrades.  in a setting that moves swiftly through thousands of years, the potential for degradation of significance seems plausible.  but we shall see if there's anything that ties significance down over time (as the semiotics of face appear to not degrade significance for KA).

the centerpiece of chapter 1 is the structuring of DA.  the equivalence between both espionage and sorcery with prostitution is brashly made.  (I.i at 38).  what’s more substantial is the lengthy summarized bildungsroman:

Quote
For him the Three Seas had possessed only two dimensions in his childhood:  there places far and near [emphasis added] and there were people high and low [emphasis added]. […] Certainly, as he matured, Achamian’s world became more complicated.  He learned that there were things holy and unholy [emphasis added], that the Gods and the Outside [emphasis added] possessed their own dimensions, rather than being people very high and a place very far away.  He also learned that there were times recent and ancient [emphasis added], that “a long time ago” was not like another place but rather a queer kind of ghost [emphasis added] that haunted every place.
(I.i at 38-39).  we have here a series of binary oppositions that structure the character of DA:  far/near, high/low, holy/unholy, outside/world, recent/ancient.  traditionally, the first part is considered more important or privileged in this type of analysis, which looks similar to saussurean linguistics or levi-strauss’s anthropology.

but:

Quote
when one became a spy, the world had the curious habit of collapsing [emphasis added] into a single dimension.
(I.i at 39).  the binaries implode, as the high take on characteristics of the low, the far look much like the near, holy things become variants of unholies, recent is simply a repetition of the ancient. 

several items of interest here:

a ) outside/world is not imploded, and remains a structural principle of the character: the “world was hollowed of its wonder” (I.i at 39), but it’s still different than the outside.

b ) recent as repetition of ancient ties into the “ghost” that haunts “every place.”  this is a metaphor with a prestigious history: 

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A spectre is haunting Europe — the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police-spies.
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Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce [emphasis added]. Caussidière for Danton, Louis Blanc for Robespierre, the Montagne of 1848 to 1851 for the Montagne of 1793 to 1795, the nephew for the uncle. And the same caricature occurs in the circumstances of the second edition of the Eighteenth Brumaire.

Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past [emphasis added] to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language. Thus Luther put on the mask of the Apostle Paul, the Revolution of 1789-1814 draped itself alternately in the guise of the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, and the Revolution of 1848 knew nothing better to do than to parody, now 1789, now the revolutionary tradition of 1793-95. In like manner, the beginner who has learned a new language always translates it back into his mother tongue, but he assimilates the spirit of the new language and expresses himself freely in it only when he moves in it without recalling the old and when he forgets his native tongue.
the first bit opens the manifesto of the communist party, whereas the second opens the eighteenth brumaire of napoleon bonaparte.

mr. derrida wrote, incidentally enough, an entire treatise on the spectre metaphor as used in marx (and shakespeare and kojeve and fukuyama--it‘s good times), and noted:

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It plays between the spirit (Geist) ad the specter (Gespenst), between the spirit on the one hand, the ghost or the revenant on the other.  This articulation often remains inaccessible […] let us once again underscore that Geist can also mean specter, as do the words “esprit” or “spirit.”  [Marx] uses and abuses this equivocation.  it is [his] principal weapon.  And especially, although its operates with constancy and consistency, and even if it is less tenable than Marx himself thinks, the argument that permits him to distinguish between spirit and specter remains discreet and subtle.  The specter is of the spirit, it participates in the latter and stems from it even as it follows it as its ghostly double.
(specters of marx (1994) at 125-26).  sure, RSB’s usage of “ghost” is simply history-occurs-twice-first-as-tragedy-second-as-farce:  but--we are in a setting wherein “souls” are said to be ontological rather than epistemological:  facts of reality rather than facts of discourse.  we shall see.

doubtful that any of this makes DA a marxist (he‘s a bit too complacent about slavery for that, among other things)--and very much disagreed with the reading that reduces characters in the novel to philosophical ideas (allegory, roman a clef, and so on).  we can make those interpretations, but there’s more to the story than that.  but: the marxist principles are what negated several binaries of his upbringing.

c ) we should track these allegedly collapsed binaries through the novels to determine how honest DA is about the extent of his liberation from childish binaries, to see if he reverts--and perhaps for comparison with other narrators because

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d ) he concludes, perhaps childishly, that

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Avarice, it seemed to him, was the world’s only dimension
(I.i at 39).  this may be marxist and it may be out of character: he’s mandati, right--or, is he sloterdijk’s cynic, bearing enlightened false consciousness?

e ) the dream (I.i at 46-48) does more than implode the recent/ancient binary--though this is important.  it is, first, a thought that comes when it wants, rather than when DA wants--it is a good example of nietzsche’s “concise little fact.”  it is also baudrillard’s hyperreal--it is a simulation, but for DA the dream is more real than the waking world, even to the extent that he believes that he is seswatha, the original experiencer of the dreamed experience.  this is like an advanced form of virtual reality in science fiction, and so should trigger all of the normal media & film studies analyses as well as baudrillard’s usage of marshall mcluhan.  something else, then, to follow throughout.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:07:39 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Quote from: bbaztek

First trilogy spoilers:
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:09:03 am
Quote from: Wilshire
Quote from: bbaztek
First trilogy spoilers:
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:09:19 am
Quote from: Happy Ent
Possibly an inconsistency: Skin Spies do not need to peel off their enemy’s faces to emulate them (we see several face changes later; no dead matrix is required). So why does The Thing Stalking Geshrunni peel off Geshrunni’s face? Either RSB changes his mind, or it’s random torture (and in that case, very confusing.)

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:09:33 am
Quote from: bbaztek
Quote from: Happy Ent
Possibly an inconsistency: Skin Spies do not need to peel off their enemy’s faces to emulate them (we see several face changes later; no dead matrix is required). So why does The Thing Stalking Geshrunni peel off Geshrunni’s face? Either RSB changes his mind, or it’s random torture (and in that case, very confusing.)

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:09:47 am
Quote from: Happy Ent
Oh, that may very well be. As I said, I can’t really remember the details of that particular conspiracy.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:09:57 am
Quote from: Madness
Welcome, Happy Ent. Good to see you here. While I don't have TTT on me - and have misplaced my vacation copy of TDTCB until tonight:

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:10:08 am
Quote from: lockesnow
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:10:18 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Aye, it's Happy Ent! Welcome!

Now, I'm just remembering...a skin spy managed to emulate Mimara without taking her face off.

Though it had to observe for some time. It might be faster if...gah, this is a gruesomely pointless efficiency...to remove a face to observe it flat? A bit like observing a texture map for a 3D face. Maybe the skin spy was in a rush?
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:10:27 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Also consider that in the cutting of the face, Bakker probably wants us to connect the prologue Nonman's cloak of faces with the face-cutter, to make the assumption that they are allies (or the same thing, as someone said they initially thought on a first read).  putting the two in the same faction would be a correct assumption for the reader to be guided into.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:10:36 am
Quote from: The Sharmat
Quote from: bbaztek
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:11:02 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Not sure why he'd do that personally here
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:12:22 am
Quote from: Wilshire
I think thats a perfectly viable explanation, especially considering the traits you just pointed out.

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:13:12 am
Quote from: Callan S.
Maybe they (ick!) put a soul into the skin spy for the telepresence deal, then remove the soul again after?

On another subject, kind of possibly not relevant - in this chapter Akka strikes me as being quite different than portrayed than latter in the book. Does anyone else get that? I'm wondering if it's just an author thing - character started out as X, but gravitated towards Y latter, but introduction still revolves around X stuff.

Some of the shift is rather like how the Seswatha dreams seem rather...flat and straight forward. People just do stuff, they don't have a million conflicting emotions. When I first read it I assumed that back in the Earwa past people were just simpler (and/or more epic, somehow). Only recently did I realise that's probably just how Seswatha remembers things. Flattened to epicness.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:13:44 am
Quote from: Wilshire
I'd say that a lot of the perception of the past (through the dreams) can be difficult to form any unbiased conclusions. What is it, "seswatha never shits" or something like that? Most of the mundane is left out of the dreams. Aside from that, the dreams are being 'remembered' through the eyes of Seswatha, through the minds of the dreamers. There is a lot of disconnect between the final person and the original scene. It would be hard for Seswatha to not grow numb to the indecencies of the surrounding environment. Rendering his emotions more flat, and therefore his memories. Then this is transferred to the dreamers, who dream every night the atrocities of war. After years and years of this, they too would become numb to the mundane suffering of little men. And only then do we get the dreamers interpretation of the dream.
By the time we hear hear of Earwa's past, its been passed from Seswatha's numb memories, to the unsympathetic Mandate, then to us the disconnected reader. Something was inevitably lost.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:13:54 am
Quote from: lockesnow
Also, there's a stylistic attempt to make the past "more epic" and more in line with the stylings of those old classics like the Aeneid and the Bible.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:14:16 am
Quote from: sologdin
yeah, several problems with the dreams:

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:14:30 am
Quote from: lockesnow
dreams drawn from the sheath.

That phrase has been kicking around my skull tonight.

drawn from the sheath.

A weapon.

A weapon is drawn from a sheath.

Is this evocative phrase, a seemingly meaningless fragment of purple prose ornamentation possess actual meaning? 

Does this indicate--from the very first--that dreams drawn from the sheath are weapons? 

If so, then whom does Seswatha wield these dreams against? and what does it signify, so early on in the novel that dreams are weaponized?  Were dreams weaponized in the novel before this? After this?
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:14:46 am
Quote from: Madness
Metaphor is Metaphysic in Earwa ;).

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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:15:03 am
Quote from: lockesnow
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:15:12 am
Quote from: Madness
Good call. They're have been versions of that hypothesis before... I'm not sure we have enough evidence to think about this one yet.

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Though, I think that's for another thread.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: What Came Before on April 19, 2013, 04:16:08 am
Quote from: lockesnow
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: Wilshire on October 29, 2014, 03:50:23 pm
Though I might have mentioned it before, I love the juxtaposition in this scene with Achamian and the Whore at the bar.

TWP/TTT spoilers (speculation)
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Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: MSJ on December 01, 2014, 07:00:08 pm
Hello everyone! This is my first post here on TSA, and I thought what I would do is read each chapter and give my thoughts. I've started my first re-read, I was tied up in Malazan and The First Law, got those out of the way, and have been dying to do a re-read of the series. Just want to contribute however I can, although don't expect too much out of me, LOL! I've been lurking here and reading most of the threads and y'alls knowledge is boundless. Just hope I MIGHT be able to offer something you guys might've missed.

So, what I loved about this first chapter is everything about Akka. I know a lot of people tend to dislike him, but for me, Akka is who kept me into this series in the beginning. Kellhus was a little too much for me and all of his inward thoughts and his manipulation. (I will go back and do my thoughts and such on the prologue.) Right off, Akka reminds me of the usual pessimistic, down on your luck, bitch and complain character. So, right off the bat, we learn of sorcery, and Chorae, which just draws me into this story more, I WANNA KNOW MORE! This whole scene in the bar really gives a good glimpse into the type of setting and lifestyle the series will be set in, loved it.

Then the next scene is the skin-spy following and defacing Geshrunni. This is where a re-read is already showing dividends. Looking here, Bakker already let's you know the Consult exists and their way of staying hidden is through an n-spies, even if your not directly told that. On first read you get the gist. Also, it validates the Mandate, they are not the fool of fools that Akka thinks they are. They are not ghosts, they are alive and well, penetrating all the Great Factions of The Three Seas. That's last line, "Something impossibly ancient, Inconceivably beautiful.", sends chills down my spine.

Akka's Seswatha dream, Celmommas prophecy, this you guys have covered extensively, and don't think there is much I can offer. Although, my feelings is that these dreams are either false or are distorted in some fashion. On Westeros, I said I believe that we will find out that what the Mandate thinks of Seswatha and what he really was or his intents, will not be the same thing. Don't think he's aligned with the Consult, but these dreams are for his benefit not for the benefit of human kind.

Well, that's about it. I will continue to do this with every chapter. Hopefully I will find some hidden nuggets, and maybe even create my own Nerdanel, LOL!
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: Wilshire on December 01, 2014, 07:09:36 pm
What a great first post. Thanks MSJ. Whatever you do, don't recoil from offering thoughts/opinions that differ from whatever is around here. At least for me, I feel like I've spent to much time entrenching the same thoughts into the Steppe, and have  lost much perspective because of it.

TDTCB, which started as my least favorite of the series, has since become my favorite after reading it a few times. So much meaning packed into and in between the words.
Title: Re: TDTCB, Ch. 1
Post by: MSJ on December 01, 2014, 07:36:15 pm
Thanks Wilshire! Yes, I think from lurking here I have picked up so much. I will offer my thoughts on each chapter and maybe I will find something that's been overlooked. My background is History (what I went to school for, ummm didn't graduate though, Lol), and never been good in science. So I've learned a lot about the metaphysics of Earwa here. Don't think there's a whole lot I can add to that, but will do my best. Thanks again!