The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts [Ghosts, Drug visions, and so on]

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sciborg2

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« on: September 06, 2013, 04:29:54 am »
The Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts

Ever read something that in ordinary circumstances you could dismiss as superstition but somehow the particular case still scares you.

The happened to me with this story of "ghosts" pretending to be helpful. My rational mind asks me how such beings could exist in realms undetectable to any instrument, how ghosts would imply dualism with all its philsophical weaknesses, and so on.

But it's still hard to fall asleep thinking about it. :-P
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 02:42:52 pm by sciborg2 »

Royce

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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2013, 06:16:09 pm »
have you read this?,sounds kind of fun :)

sciborg2

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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2013, 07:10:34 pm »
have you read this?,sounds kind of fun :)

Haven't read the book. It's funny, my skeptical side raises all sorts of problems inherent to the idea of souls or demons existing in some astral world interacting with this universe. I know the most likely explanation is that the mediums are faking it or putting themselves into an altered state, I even wrote a paper at uni about this....

But this story still freaks the fuck out of me, and thinking about it at night the paranoid part of me is sure I 'm going to be contacted by these Others.  :P  ;D

Royce

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 06:08:06 am »
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Haven't read the book. It's funny, my skeptical side raises all sorts of problems inherent to the idea of souls or demons existing in some astral world interacting with this universe. I know the most likely explanation is that the mediums are faking it or putting themselves into an altered state, I even wrote a paper at uni about this....

Then you probably came across Terence Mckenna and his various encounters with entities while under the influence of psilocybin mushrooms and various other substances,shamanism etc? His encounters with elf-like entities is  my personal favorite :)
I think this is interesting,but not something I take very seriously.First of all since I have not encountered any entities myself yet.It does pose some interesting questions about reality though.Most people I have talked to about altered states says that science have no chance at all trying to explain the nature of their experiences,because even words have a hard time explaining what happens in these various states :) Are they hallucinating while in these states,or are they actually experiencing another reality/dimension? I sure don`t have a fucking clue what is going on here ;D

Bought that book for my kindle by the way ;)


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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2013, 12:55:00 pm »
DMT Machine Elves :o?

I'm interested in the similarities between 'trips.'

Sorry, off topic, just wanted to respond.
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Royce

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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2013, 01:16:57 pm »
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DMT Machine Elves :o?

lol ;D Yes you are right about that,it was under the influence of DMT he encountered the elves.DMT is quite similar to psilosybin,meaning you can interact with the entities you encounter.Other psychedelics like LSD or ayahuasca does not bring forth this feeling of communication with entities.I have talked to people who have experienced this,and this interaction is not necessarily profound in any way,which many may claim.
Terence did have a committed relationship with the mushroom,even stating(probably not serious) that the mushroom is a intergalactic species who traveled across space(since the spores can survive in extreme temperature) to inhabit our planet,and spread their message through psychedelic experiences ;D
What do you call this? beautiful lunacy maybe :)

Somnambulist

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2013, 02:53:06 pm »
Continuing the derailment... :)  Graham Hancock also wrote a book about DMT and shamanistic trips in which he and others interacted with 'other' entities.  It is called Supernatural and definitely skews the perspective to fit his own agenda, but was an interesting read.
No whistling on the slog!

Royce

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2013, 05:03:14 pm »
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Continuing the derailment... :)  Graham Hancock also wrote a book about DMT and shamanistic trips in which he and others interacted with 'other' entities.  It is called Supernatural and definitely skews the perspective to fit his own agenda, but was an interesting read.

I actually have that one,but haven`t read it yet.Altered states and the use of psychedelic plants in different cultures is a interesting subject indeed.That you can change how you perceive reality through what you eat,fascinates me immensely.

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2013, 05:17:57 pm »
Royce your comment makes me think of the movie Inception a little:

If a certain state altering drug/food was a daily staple in your diet, from birth especially, then you would come to see the absence of the affect and illusion, and think the affects of it reality.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Royce

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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2013, 05:54:20 pm »
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If a certain state altering drug/food was a daily staple in your diet, from birth especially, then you would come to see the absence of the affect and illusion, and think the affects of it reality.

I would think so yes :) Mckennas theory about psychedelic plants and its effect on the evolution of consciousness,creativity and abstract thinking does make sense to some people I guess.I don`t have enough knowledge on the subject,so I remain undecided on the issue.He mainly states that at some point in history we started to include mushrooms in our diet,where small doses increases hearing,eyesight and you are constantly horny ;D These factors are important when you live in hunter-gatherer society.Hearing to detect danger more easily,eyesight to hit your target more often,and being horny leads to more procreation,which then stimulates growth in number.What stimulated these primitive people to suddenly become creative beings(cave arts and so on) is an interesting issue.Mckenna obviously thinks that the psychedelic mushroom stimulated this evolution on our conscioussness

sciborg2

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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2013, 12:20:46 am »
DMT Machine Elves :o?

I'm interested in the similarities between 'trips.'

Sorry, off topic, just wanted to respond.

No reason to stay on topic, I think this is the kind of thread that benefits from digression.

I recall Sam Harris of all people talking about the similarities between the trips of different users taking DMT.

I've not really found a good source of evidence that shows this occurring. And how would you even devise a good way to test something like that?

eta:

@Royce:

Quote
Are they hallucinating while in these states,or are they actually experiencing another reality/dimension? I sure don`t have a fucking clue what is going on here ;D

Bought that book for my kindle by the way ;)

I tend to lean toward the pragmatic, agnostic view - that people have the right to explore their own consciousness via drugs and that there does seem to be therapeutic benefits to ingestion of certain drugs.

A friend of mine is working on a cancer anxiety study where they give shrooms to terminally ill cancer patients. Apparently tripping on mushrooms reduces the fear of death. There's also evidence that LSD can be incredibly therapeutic, and some doctors are using ibogaine to treat heroin addiction. The latter figures prominently for the first part of Pinchbeck's Breaking Open the Head.

And , heh, I'm debating buying the book. Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts is a good title...and if nothing else it seems like it'd be a good horror read...
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:45:49 am by sciborg2 »

Royce

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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2013, 11:14:49 am »
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A friend of mine is working on a cancer anxiety study where they give shrooms to terminally ill cancer patients. Apparently tripping on mushrooms reduces the fear of death. There's also evidence that LSD can be incredibly therapeutic, and some doctors are using ibogaine to treat heroin addiction. The latter figures prominently for the first part of Pinchbeck's Breaking Open the Head.

Yeah,I have encountered similar examples of positive effects among certain psychedelics.Too bad they are illegal though,makes research on this subject far more difficult.Those LSD experiments in the sixties were very sucessfull against anxiety,depression etc.Are there research done today on this subject? I though the research stopped because of the illegality of the substances.

Madness

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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2013, 12:56:45 pm »
Terence did have a committed relationship with the mushroom,even stating(probably not serious) that the mushroom is a intergalactic species who traveled across space(since the spores can survive in extreme temperature) to inhabit our planet,and spread their message through psychedelic experiences ;D
What do you call this? beautiful lunacy maybe :)

Lol, more specifically, those were some very specific mushrooms in South America, that come from a network covering an enormous area, ingested on an seven day trip, and the mushroom entity told McKenna that our experience results from our tasting their "sexual appendage."

The Mushroom Life theory, separately, is actually pretty interesting for the reasons mentioned.

Quote
Continuing the derailment... :)  Graham Hancock also wrote a book about DMT and shamanistic trips in which he and others interacted with 'other' entities.  It is called Supernatural and definitely skews the perspective to fit his own agenda, but was an interesting read.

I actually have that one,but haven`t read it yet.Altered states and the use of psychedelic plants in different cultures is a interesting subject indeed.That you can change how you perceive reality through what you eat,fascinates me immensely.

Royce your comment makes me think of the movie Inception a little:

If a certain state altering drug/food was a daily staple in your diet, from birth especially, then you would come to see the absence of the affect and illusion, and think the affects of it reality.

Honestly, to your brain, everything is a drug; or at least, that's proven an effective analogy. But I know at some point I'm going to get into this in james' Soylent thread.

Quote
If a certain state altering drug/food was a daily staple in your diet, from birth especially, then you would come to see the absence of the affect and illusion, and think the affects of it reality.

I would think so yes :) Mckennas theory about psychedelic plants and its effect on the evolution of consciousness,creativity and abstract thinking does make sense to some people I guess.I don`t have enough knowledge on the subject,so I remain undecided on the issue.He mainly states that at some point in history we started to include mushrooms in our diet,where small doses increases hearing,eyesight and you are constantly horny ;D These factors are important when you live in hunter-gatherer society.Hearing to detect danger more easily,eyesight to hit your target more often,and being horny leads to more procreation,which then stimulates growth in number.What stimulated these primitive people to suddenly become creative beings(cave arts and so on) is an interesting issue.Mckenna obviously thinks that the psychedelic mushroom stimulated this evolution on our conscioussness

It's actually not a bad hypothesis. I liked his 'paranormal' attempt at serious academic work - A for Effort. Again, like the Sheldrake thread, I think it's a more an issue of employment then status rather than refutation or even consideration.

DMT Machine Elves :o?

I'm interested in the similarities between 'trips.'

Sorry, off topic, just wanted to respond.

No reason to stay on topic, I think this is the kind of thread that benefits from digression.

I recall Sam Harris of all people talking about the similarities between the trips of different users taking DMT.

I've not really found a good source of evidence that shows this occurring. And how would you even devise a good way to test something like that?

You need cumulative evidence from as many cross-contextual analyses as possible. A matrix of interdisciplinary context.

eta:

@Royce:

Quote
Are they hallucinating while in these states,or are they actually experiencing another reality/dimension? I sure don`t have a fucking clue what is going on here ;D

Bought that book for my kindle by the way ;)

I tend to lean toward the pragmatic, agnostic view - that people have the right to explore their own consciousness via drugs and that there does seem to be therapeutic benefits to ingestion of certain drugs.

A friend of mine is working on a cancer anxiety study where they give shrooms to terminally ill cancer patients. Apparently tripping on mushrooms reduces the fear of death. There's also evidence that LSD can be incredibly therapeutic, and some doctors are using ibogaine to treat heroin addiction. The latter figures prominently for the first part of Pinchbeck's Breaking Open the Head.

And , heh, I'm debating buying the book. Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts is a good title...and if nothing else it seems like it'd be a good horror read...

Lol. Pinchbeck.

I support the above endeavors.

Yeah,I have encountered similar examples of positive effects among certain psychedelics.Too bad they are illegal though,makes research on this subject far more difficult.Those LSD experiments in the sixties were very sucessfull against anxiety,depression etc.Are there research done today on this subject? I though the research stopped because of the illegality of the substances.

The envelope is being pushed again in many regions of the planet, Royce. There is a plethora of different substance research available from the late 20th century and now at the start of the 21st.

Obviously, there are positive and negative criticisms and the social pressures remain in flux.
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Royce

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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2013, 07:25:31 pm »
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I tend to lean toward the pragmatic, agnostic view - that people have the right to explore their own consciousness via drugs and that there does seem to be therapeutic benefits to ingestion of certain drugs.

I agree.

Quote
And , heh, I'm debating buying the book. Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts is a good title...and if nothing else it seems like it'd be a good horror read...

Just started on this one,and this will most likely scare me shitless ;D When it is over,my rational brain will hopefully comfort me,since I can`t believe any of this.This has to be experienced,reading about it will not convince me.It is nevertheless well written and engaging so far,will come back with more when I finish it.

sciborg2

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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2013, 09:06:55 pm »
So I'll probably make another thread on the therapeutic value of psychedelics, as I think it's a topic that is of interest even to those who may not care about ghosts.

But on the subject of entities, Richard Strassman is the guy who injected people with DMT. From what I've gathered, he was expecting people to have spiritual feelings that related to some ideas in Zen Buddhism. Instead people who'd been injected started talking about meeting beings in other realities.

Seems to me the challenge here is to parse how likely such shared trip experiences would be among people who have some common cultural expectations.

Quote
Just started on this one,and this will most likely scare me shitless ;D

It's the author committing suicide that makes it creepy. Though I've been told the ghosts in the story really come off as con-artists rather than representatives of some kind of Platonic Evil.

@Madness: Why the Lol-ing against Pinchbeck? Mind you I've only read about 2/3 of Breaking Open the Head and checked in on his blog long ago.

The value of ibogaine in the treatment of addiction was the thing that caught my interest, as well as the apparently common experience of a life review.