[TGO Spoilers] Why did he return?

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2016, 06:28:10 am »
I think the very action you cite proves Kayutas wrong.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2016, 06:50:24 am »
Kayutas is wrong in that their is a "reality" to Kellhus, that he does care.  The insight present is in explaining why Kellhus acts the way he acts.  He applies all his Dunyain strength to bending the world to achieve his goal.  All his ruthlessness, all his lies, all his deceptions and manipulations are explained by that statement.  The actions that are not explained by this are the rare human ones, the emotions that even a Dunyain is subject to. The "real" Kellhus is buried under the legions of the false ones necessary to shape the world.

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 09:36:30 am »
Kayutas is wrong in that their is a "reality" to Kellhus, that he does care.  The insight present is in explaining why Kellhus acts the way he acts.  He applies all his Dunyain strength to bending the world to achieve his goal.  All his ruthlessness, all his lies, all his deceptions and manipulations are explained by that statement.  The actions that are not explained by this are the rare human ones, the emotions that even a Dunyain is subject to. The "real" Kellhus is buried under the legions of the false ones necessary to shape the world.

+100000000000, what I've been saying going on a year now. There will always be "Mission" to Kellhus. That's why in TGO we get these explanations about place and being what he needs to be when he needs to be. But, under that is human emotion and it does effect his decisions and ultimately his overall goal - ending damnation and defeating the Consult. Saying Kellhus is "broken" is just another way of saying it, shorthand though. He is no longer Dûnyain......HE IS MORE!!!!!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 09:39:39 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 11:34:59 am »
Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.
I don't remember this because so much has been going on, but strange as it sounds, if this is after he glimpsed his assassination in her face it might be that his feelings were actually hurt.

Perhaps, I mean, that is as plausible as it being disappointment?  In either case, he walks away from her.  It may well be Kellhus has plenty of emotion, but he still isn't particularly moved by any of it.

Moved by love?  Nope.  Not even a little.  The Place is the Place, he does not move, everything else does.
Call me crazy but I could swear this series has some kind of message in regards to people that view themselves as the immovable center of the universe...

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but Kellhus certainly places himself at the center of all the events of this Second Apocalypse.  Indeed, that is what The Thousandfold Thought is, right?  He says himself "He, and he alone, was the Place, the point of maximal convergence."

As Kyutas explains, after all the kids pondering, they realize: "“Look … the thing to always remember about Father, Uncle, is that he is always—and only—what he needs to be."

If you mean that he is in for a rude awakening when he realizes that things will be outside his control, and in fact probably already are, then I agree.  But he still has himself placed at the center of all the events we are witnessing, for better or worse.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2016, 11:39:39 am »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2016, 12:01:01 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

I think that speaks right to what Kayûtas tells us though.  Sure, Kellhus may be weary, but that doesn't matter.  Kellhus is both the fount of the TT and a cog in it machinations.

Sure, he may have emotion, he may have passion, he may tire, he may be weary, but none of that matters in the sense of driving him to action.  He only does what must be done.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Hogman

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« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2016, 01:19:38 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Sharacinth, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.

*EDIT: Original post said Pstama Nannaferi - I meant Sharacinth
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:26:49 pm by Hogman »

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« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2016, 01:32:34 pm »
I think when Malowebi asks Meppa what he is and he replys, "Weary". Says a lot about Kellhus's human nature.

You might be reading too much into this. When he returns to Momemn in The Judging Eye (or was it WLW?) to see Psatma Nannaferi, he's exhausted purely because of the exertion of travelling that distance by teleportation. And that journey was much shorter. I think he was simply tired because of that.

While that is plausible, why say "weary" when he meant "tired" or "exhausted."  No, to me weary has a whole different connotation than either of those others and so it seems wholly reasonable to draw the inference that MSJ did from his choice of words.  Being weary isn't just being tired.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2016, 03:05:41 pm »
Well, possibly the nuke changed things.  He needed more, or something different.  So he came back to get what was left.

Not buying bleeding-heart Kellhus, he literally turns his back on Esmenet and walks away.

Ciphrang-Malowebi (to get Zeum) and Meppa seem to be what he was really after.

Ciphrang Malowebi is a pretty huge event. He's only got two heads, so using one on Malowebi must have been extremely important - worth a journey of a thousands of leagues.
Using that to force Zeum's hand post-nuke - that's a theory I like the sound of.

 But, Zeum is far away, no matter how you slice it. If there is a path where they can get through the mountains to the North of Domyot, they're still very far away, and I believe its starting to become Fall, isn't it? So snow will be a problem, especially for a desert peoples.
Alternatively, they could sail north and part near the mouth of the Leash. Sailing, I beleive, would be faster than marching, but even if they landed in the Leash they are still on the far side of Agongorea - a similar distance to where TGO is currently.
I don't see how Zeum can reach Golgotterath in any timeframe that allows them to help TGO. Maybe if the siege of Golgotterath becomes a months long process (lets ignore the logistics problems of that for now) then Zeum might be able to show up... But that seems like kind of a waste. Even if successful, TGO at this point will be largely destroyed. Only the shattered remains of a twice shattered army.

So then, whats the plan for Zeum? To come take over the three seas and secure Kellhus' throne? Seems unlikely, what's worth saving?
Is Kellhus just looking for a safe place to lick his wounds post Golgotterath? I guess Malowebi could condition the ground for his arrival in Domyot. That again, though, seems unlikely. A waste of a precious artifact

I just don't see the end game. The path is too narrow!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 05:29:06 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2016, 03:42:59 pm »
Is Kellhus just looking for a safe place to lick his wounds post Golgotterath? I guess Malowebi could condition the ground for his arrival in Domyot. That again, though, seems unlikely. A waste of a precious artifact

I just don't see the end game. The path is too narrow!

I don't think he is looking to rest at all.  I think the whole exercise of The Great Ordeal is to draw out the Consult.  So, in every way, no matter what they have done, they are playing into Kellhus' "plan."  I phrase it as such, because I don't think he actually knows exactly what is going to happen, but the visions (himself from the future) are simply guiding him along.  One doesn't necessarily need to know the destination if you are told every step.  Perhaps, again, the whole thing is so ambiguous it could be anything.  I think TTT has transcended him, which is what I meant by him being both the fount and a cog.  The plan is both from him, of him, and yet through him.  This is why he is more than just a man with a plan, he is a place where the man and the plan intersect.

My best guess is that by leaving Zeum leaderless, he can arrive there and be a savior?  Kill Ciphrang-Malowebi and be their hero?  He can then use Zeum's resources as the next thing to throw at the Consult?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2016, 03:47:04 pm »
I totally left out the fact that the-thing-that-is-Malowebi probably won't even reach Zeum until TGO is at Golgotterath. So, yeah, whatever Zeum's role is to be, its not to save TGO.
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« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2016, 03:55:54 pm »
I totally left out the fact that the-thing-that-is-Malowebi probably won't even reach Zeum until TGO is at Golgotterath. So, yeah, whatever Zeum's role is to be, its not to save TGO.

Oh, definitely.  The Great Ordeal isn't there to win.  They are there to occupy the Consult, while Kellhus does the things he needs to do to be ready for the real showdown.  What the hell that is I am not sure, but perhaps it involves Meppa?
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2016, 03:58:17 pm »
Repeat Mengedda - using Zeum for the meat shield, Meppa for the Spear, kill NG there again, make the topos so intense that it tears a whole into the Outside... And other such ridiculous ends. TSTSNBN will be quite the ride. TUC, I fear, ends in tragedy.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2016, 05:06:26 pm »
We got back to "Kellhus has conditioned every step of the way and this is all part of his master plan" pretty quick.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2016, 05:36:29 pm »
TGO being a big feignt is a ridiculous gambit, though its great we don't even know what his final goal is.

We got back to "Kellhus has conditioned every step of the way and this is all part of his master plan" pretty quick.

When did that happen?
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