I never got a list, unfortunately. A couple times I've managed to calibrate some amazon page to show a number of the different translations but I couldn't duplicate my results when I tried again this most recent time to answer your question.

German, Spanish, and French for sure...

I'm going to enjoy the post-experience breakdown of that collapse of circumstances into living the connotative readings of the text... Bakker seems to think our ideas exceed the-epic-that-is.

Decided to bump this thread with a question that might not be 100% pertinent but oh well.

For some reason, it donned on me that the whole of Golgotterath is surely a topos. A really big and terrible one.

+1 on the bump. A friend and I discussed about it a few times in the past weeks and it is really difficult to frame a TSA FAQ. Too many questions remain relevant throughout the series.

Golgotterath seems like it would be the worst topoi?

There is a rare chance that you, personally, do absolutely nothing to further ingrain the set of manifest behaviours we've called WMP. I'm certainly not innocent. But I enjoy breaking apart moments of circumstance like this so indulge me while I bullet-point some abstractions:

- Every time I'm sitting around with buddies and we allow, through our inaction or laziness, demeaning or derogatory jokes or comments to linger unchallenged.

- Every time we, as people in the world, make unwanted compliments or comments concerning/towards/about members of another gender.

- Every time we thoughtlessly allow our selves and our children to consume and reproduce gender stereotypes and actions portrayed in the media.

- Every time we meet stereotypes of these representions in our lives or (re)enact stereotypical actions or situations.

I could probably think of more and definitely include a bunch of common heuristic and bias errors that seem to take place over a wide sample of a skewed population (WEIRD studies - cheers to whomever on TPB got me hooked on that acronym. Though, I think many practicing scientists understand that demographic and its various socioeconomic reasons). But this is the messy arena in which human behavior, of word or action, manifests these thoughtlessly embodied societal and cultural norms.

By all means, spoiler away, I have no issues with spoilers at all and I'm greedy for some information related to books that is not in the books.

Mekeritrig

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The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard.

I think I missed where it says so. I thought Kelmomas sent his own son into Ishual, as he was telling to Seswatcha one day?

I'm not 100% sure - and don't have TJE on me - but I believe Celmomas does say to Seswatha that he's building Ishual "as somewhere his line can survive" but I took that to mean a final refuge for House Anasurimbor, something any of the Family might use for respite. He tells Seswatha to hide the map to Ishual in the coffers.

I feel that there is a chance that Ganrelka was Cel's first son - born of a teenage daliance and not originally expected to figure in the succession.

It probably isn't that far-fetched to think that Ganrelka is Celmomas' firstborn; arranged marriages, pubescent viability, etc.

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However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

You mean - who was that Nonman Kellhus encountered? I don't think it matters,  all nonmans are over 2000 years old, all they carry ancient knowledge of these days. Except these who went insane.

We know this actually - Bakker asked a question years ago on Zombie Three-Seas. I wouldn't want to be the person to spoil it for you and it's ulterior to what I actually meant:

When the Nonman tells Kellhus he recognized him as Anasurimbor, he fumbles with a particular face on his cloak. I was wondering who that Anasurimbor was?

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Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

This is correct only under circumstances that Seswatha is Anasurimbor, but books never mention anything like that. Otherwise there is only one way: Kelmomas's wife was Anasurimbor as well.  Eowa has their own Targariens?

That's actually a really good point - that could easily be an mid-game bombshell by Bakker. Incestual bloodline.

However, I think we're all missing the point. The Dunyain Anasurimbor are the offspring of Ganrelka's Bastard. The arguments go that Ganrelka is either Celmomas' son, brother, or nephew, based on the fact that Celmomas is 15 years older (I think) than Ganrelka. If he's Celmomas' nephew than I, for one, don't think that counts as fulfilling the Celmomian Prophecy.

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My current thinking is that the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants (and that Kellhus knows this thanks to that little chat he had with Akka's inner Seswatha) and that Esmenet (and therefore Mimara) is descended from the true Anasurimbor line. In the PoN books, there are references to Esmenet having quite pale skin, despite being Ketyai, which perhaps suggests she has some Norsirai (and maybe Nonman) blood. We know Mimara reminded Cleric of his wife. And both Esmenet and Mimara are supposedly super-smart for non-Dunyain humans (the given reason for Kellhus choosing Esme to bear his children), also suggesting some influence of Nonman blood. In particular, Mimara has the Nonman talent for making great conceptual leaps in her understanding of the metaphysics of the world.

IMO, any male pronoun used in reference to the Anasurimbor who returns at the End is purely an artefact of the rigidly patriarchal culture of Earwa (both in Seswatha's time and in Kellhus'). I.e. everybody in Earwa who knows of the Celmomian Prophecy would naturally assume it'd be a male descendant. Including Celmomas himself and Seswatha.

Like the thoughts, Duskweaver. Concise first post .

But how can be he Seswatcha descendant if he clearly son of Anasurimbor? The Nonman does not just says that he has blood of Anasurimbors', he says that he exactly bears "his face" ie direct descendant on father's line.

Achamian's dreams in The White Luck Warrior explicitly state that Seswatha was carrying on an affair with Anasurimbor Celmomas' wife.  Seswatha also seems attached to Nau Cayuti as though he were NC's father.

Making great points, Kein.

We have two divergences, I think. The Dunyain seem in no way progeny of Nau-Cayuti - likely the Dunyain are of the Few because of generational training for cognitive function, in line with what Bakker's said elsewhere.

Which means that Seswatha corrupting the Celmomas bloodline and where that bloodline held out, if it did, still remains a question; Last Scion speculation, etc.

Hi Kein,

It saddens me that no one is around/took the time to answer your question...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, by the way.

Apologies, this might get convoluted.

Firstly, we've had a version of this debate in various places around the forum, most explicitly in Infidelity and the High Kings of Kûniüri.

Secondly, I think we've discussed it so much because we've assumed that the Celmomian Prophecy's fulfillment is important.

The Nonman at the beginning of TDTCB does seem to confirm that Kellhus is related to an Anasurimbor that the Nonman had previously killed. However, who was that nameless face woven into the cloak?

But there are other obligatory questions to ask.

Were the Anasurimbor of the Few before Seswatha? Because if not, then we might assume that all the Dunyain are Seswatha's descendants, not Celmomas'.

What does having Nonmen blood (which all Anasurimbors, apparently, have had since the Nonmen tutelage) mean for the Anasurimbors?

Could Celmomas' bloodline have survived somewhere other than Ishual?

Does this help at all? I'm sure it simply prompts more questions .

Lol, cheers, Callan.