Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - WeAreProyas

Pages: [1]
1
The Unholy Consult / Re: We Are Proyas
« on: August 27, 2017, 11:21:59 pm »
Dunning-Kruger effect....I really need to remember that one.

I decided to go back through Mr. Bakker's online comments, parsing for understanding about his intent. (I have given up looking for narrative understanding.) I must admit the comments have pushed me back towards "getting off the ride".

Here are two more quotes that I think fit with my We Are Proyas thesis.

"The ignorance stuff is more retail than that, part of my attempt to write an inverse scripture, one preaching suspicion as opposed to belief."
"But I will still insist that those who do feel betrayed by the ending actually 'get' the book in a way more profound than they know."

So we, as readers, were intended to feel betrayed?
Should we, as readers, be suspicious of Mr. Bakker, the author?

It is almost as if he is intentionally setting up an adversarial relationship between himself and the reader. Explicitly stating, don't trust me and then laughing at us when we continue to try and "understand/decipher" him/the book.

"But what can I do aside from shrug, reaffirm that I did work tremendously hard on this final book, and reassert that frustrating our meaning-making reflexes was paramount among my goals?"

"It's crash space. A place where every judgment of error doubles as an affirmation of success." - This quote admittedly confuses me a bit, but it seems like it is relevant. Is he saying every judgement of error on the part of the readers is taken as a success on the part of the author? Inverse Fire indeed.

"But one thing you will not get is a perfectly edited, entirely consistent encyclopedic version, simply because, for one, some of the inconsistencies are intentional, and secondly, because error/omission free encyclopedia are the product of the Enlightenment. Pre-Enlightenment compendiums are gloriously messy things…." (Italics are mine.)

I am sorry, but in Mr. Bakker's own words...I smell a postmodern rat. I am big a fan of the Enlightenment.

"I'm sure those on the short end, dismayed by the indeterminacy, would be inclined to smell a postmodern rat....."

2
Thank you for finding the passage. I don't think I could have ever tracked it down.
Not surprised it was noticed when it first came out...thanks Madness.

I guess it all comes down to how long the "later" refers to.

In the way back thread Sologdin mentions having made notes in the margin when forward looking spoilery appeared in the text. I wonder if a compilation of those could be created.

3
It is possible I am remembering something from the initial Holy War but I would swear it was something mentioned in The Great Ordeal.

I vaguely remember a passage in which a group of men participating in the Ordeal were called something like Herdsmen, Foragers, or Harvesters and the book went on to say this term would later become a holy or revered term.

Does anyone remember this?

It struck me at the time because it basically proved that humanity/civilization would survive enough for a collective memory to exist of the Great Ordeal. It made such an impact on me that I imagined at the time that it was a clue to what Bakker's final volumes set in the future would cover.

I imagined they would show a world in which a religion/belief system had been established based on the events of TGO and TUC, accurate or inaccurate. That we the reader who had "seen" the end of TUC would know what was true and false.

Just goes to show I don't know a damn thing about what Bakker is thinking!!

4
The Unholy Consult / We Are Proyas
« on: August 13, 2017, 10:28:12 pm »
Thanks to Mr. Bakker for creating a uniquely enjoyable reading experience.

Thanks to the online community for helping me to better understand what the hell I have been reading. By both filling in where I missed something AND by putting me at ease when I thought I had missed something but where in fact it was still a mystery.

I read spoilers prior to reading TUC, which probably tempered my reaction. However, as a casual reader I felt I was going to need to “Cliffs notes” ahead of time to improve my understanding.

For many, it seems that Mr. Bakker’s comments post release have generated as much frustration as the book itself. I feel the opposite; they clarified a lot for me. He constructed the nature of this ride intentionally, we all chose to participate and could have gotten off at any time. I salute him for sticking with his approach. In the long-run I think the non-traditional decisions he made will cost him financially in terms of book sales but he created a truly memorable story.

These two quotes said it all for me:
“…so if you were expecting a traditional discharging of narrative mysteries, you were bound to be disappointed…”

“Frustration on the part of a good number of readers--we all have varying tolerances for uncertainty--is something I take as a sign of achieving my narrative and thematic goals. I would have been bummed if some hadn't reacted negatively.”

I think elusiveness and obscurity it is a very effective tool for world building and engaging a reader. The reader fills in the gaps and infuses a world with their perspective. Mystery and narrative dysphoria creates online communities like this, which only enhances the reading experience. The fact that I still don’t know what to think of Kellhus is both disappointing/frustrating and awesome at the same time.

The non-traditional aspects of Mr. Bakker’s books are what pulled me along. In a traditional book, Akka would have been the voice of the author or the stand-in for the reader. Perfectly positioned to inform, observe and judge. However, in the end I believe the reader is really Proyas, completely mind-fucked, used, and wrung out. After volumes of depravity that “What have you done?” scene was soul-droppingly amazing.

Despite all my praise, I am not sure how I feel moving forward with Mr. Bakker’s work. I maintained a high level of “tolerances for uncertainty” throughout the series, but I think I am too traditional for Mr. Bakker and in the end I want reveals. I want understanding. I can take nihilism, shades of grey, obscurity, and the end of the world but I want some narrative closure in a book that the author says is the end they imagined.

I was excited to hear there was a glossary in TUC but that thing is a giant troll to the reader. It became a joke as I read, the number of times I flipped to the back only to find some useless piece of information about a battle or geographic feature but not the thing I wanted. It was the worst kind of filler.

It left me wondering if Mr. Bakker has a clear understanding of his own creation. Has he been spending his time taking a fleshed out world and intentionally making it mysterious or has he been simply writing without a substantive perspective and leaving it to the online community to create substance?

So thank you Mr. Bakker, you constructed a literary ride unlike anything I have experienced. However, I think I am getting off the ride.





Who am I kidding? When is the next book coming out?

 

5
A few thoughts:

At the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring Frodo and Gandalf go back and forth about the fact that Bilbo did not stab Gollum when he had the opportunity to do so.  Bilbo's act of compassion eventually allows Gollum to redeem Middle Earth after the Ring masters Frodo at Amon Amarth (awesome band, by the way).  I think RSB considers himself one of Papa Tolkien's most rebellious sons, so if an act of compassion redeemed Middle Earth it's not surprising that an act of compassion should damn Earwa.  (And little Kel is a bit of a Gollum.)


This connection is exactly what I first thought about when reading the end of TUC. That moment of confusion by Kellhus/Ajokli when Kel gets stuffed into the sarcophagus is just the kind of WTF moment Sauron must have felt when Gollum claimed the ring.

Gollum fixation on the ring is also a good match for Kel's obsession for his mother.

I am still in that neverland of confusion that Bakker wants us to reside in on the question of good/bad Kellhus, or just good/bad in general. So I am not extending the analogy to Kellhus equals Sauron.

PS. My first post after a lifetime of being a Skin-Spy lurker.

Pages: [1]